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Europe Returning to Pagan Roots
NewsMax ^ | May 30, 2003 | Fr. Mike Reilly

Posted on 05/30/2003 9:55:54 PM PDT by Hugenot

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To: ArneFufkin
Well, when the Constitutional Convention ended, a lady asked old Ben Franklin if they had given us a republic or a monarchy. Ben replied: "A republic. . . IF YOU CAN KEEP IT!"

That's the bottom line, isn't it? We can have a bright and indefinite future, but only to the extent that the right choices and actions are taken by each succeeding generation. There is no given or guarantee about that, it is all contingent, and can never be taken for granted.

141 posted on 05/31/2003 8:39:58 AM PDT by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: Stefan Stackhouse
The beauty of this place is that it will always be a destination of hope and prosperity for people around the world. They will always keep the flame of industrious contibution alive. If they knock you or me off the team ... well, that's an evolutionary mandate if we're not getting the job done. I'm fixing to stay in the lineup by getting better and better. Everyone here should share that opportunity.

That's what keeps America fit and feisty. Ben could never have forseen 2003 America. He'd be lost in joy if he did.

142 posted on 05/31/2003 8:53:36 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: TheAngryClam
...the source of the modern word "religion."

Who ever said anything about the "modern" word, anyway? I was talking about the "true" definition, for which I have already made my case.

143 posted on 05/31/2003 8:55:55 AM PDT by The Grammarian
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To: philetus
True. We've certainly come a long way. Now, we abort them. I suppose it is progress -- it beats the post-partum abortions in Northern Ireland, India, China, the Middle East and Africa all to hell. To those who choose that route, I say, "Go for it! Kill them before you can hear the screams. Noise pollution is probably a great concern to those who choose that route." We'll let God sort it out later, and I can assure you He's heard each and every scream.
144 posted on 05/31/2003 8:56:21 AM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: Hugenot
""It borders on the ridiculous that the Preamble should make nominal reference to the Hellenistic and Roman component and jump directly to the 'philosophers of the Enlightenment,' omitting the Christian reference without which the Enlightenment is incomprehensible," Josep Miro i Ardevol, president of the Convention of Christians for Europe, said in a statement."

And these same countries coddle a virulent strain of Islam unknown to the US. Apparently they have forgotten, purposely, the Jews and the other branches of the Monotheistic tree and therefore fail to point out the regressive ness of Islam and the progressiveness of today's Judaism and Christianity.

What Sort of Hat Are You? ."...antidemocratic sentiment was not merely an ephermeral trend, but a defining feature of 20th century French political culture."Today Heidegger Lives In France" .

145 posted on 05/31/2003 8:57:41 AM PDT by Helms (Dems Find Smoking Gun: 45-55 Loss in Senate, Bush Wins 2nd Term)
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To: Helms
Islam is a bad program in its current form. If Judeo-Christian America is the best human construct in our history ... Islam is one of the worst. It's a scam for despotism and inflammatory manipulation from the day Mohammed probably killed some guy and found his notes. He always had visions from Allah just when he needed to round up some battle fodder for his next campaign or defense.

In a way, it's like the old Divine Right game the inbred European Monarchs played. The Quran means only what that Mosque's holy man interperts from original Arabic that nobody else has access. That's well regulated. The good Muslim people need to take those heretics to the mat before we do.

146 posted on 05/31/2003 9:07:36 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: freedom moose
Nah, we're just resting. You wait and see how many Christians hop out of the woodpile if we experience another attack (God forbid!). It's like getting in the middle of a family argument. We can all say such horrendous things to each other, but let somebody tell us we can't be practicing Christians anymore, and you'll see the underlying fabric of moral fiber is still strong -- though freyed. I, for one, would make jihad look like a Sunday School Picnic, and I'm about the most laid-back, live and let live sort of girl.

Make no mistake, there are more of us out there. We just don't feel comfortable in watered-down, one-size fits all Christianity, and don't wish to become listed as Cult Members because we practice our faith daily.
147 posted on 05/31/2003 9:07:39 AM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: Kerberos
Exactly, beginning with the fleeing of people from Europe for the new world (America). And why were these people fleeing Europe, to escape the oppressive rule of church and state. So today, we have some people who want to re-create that European model here.

Yeah, a "church" that was specifically set up so that a degenrate king could divorce and remarry. I still find it amazing that anyone is surprised, historically speaking, that such a "church" turned out to be tyrannical.

Otherwise, the point of your premise is wholly ludicrous. I guess that's why strong churches grew up so quickly in the United States? And when the immigrants of the 19th and 20th century came here (the large majority Catholic), it was to escape political-statist oppression of the kind that killed priests, burned churches, and attempted to control religious leaders. There are many in this country today who attempt to do similar things to those religious leaders who don't tow the secular/elitist line on issues such as homosexuality, abortion, birthcontrol. We will fight them now as we did then.

And guess what? We already know the ending. The good guys win.
148 posted on 05/31/2003 9:09:52 AM PDT by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces )
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To: TheAngryClam
We'll see. I suspect the world will continue long after you and I have left it.

Indeed that is true, however I suspect I will continue on after the world has left, as I suspect will you. I in the presence of God, you not. Ah well, at least we both will get our way! -grin-

149 posted on 05/31/2003 9:13:59 AM PDT by American in Israel (Right beats wrong)
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To: TheAngryClam
I don't really see the problem- Christianity is just a neutered, tired religion.
Once, it was like Islam is now, full of fire and passion and global conquest, but now is nothing more than memories.

Well Christianity is the fastest growing religion in Asia, Africa and South America. Third world Christians are much more conservative than their European and North American Counter parts. In 20 years there will be an african or Asian pope since the majority of the Cardinals will be from third world counties.

This is all common knowledge among those who are keeping an eye on things.

Liberals, secularists and the unimformed are in for a real shock, shortly.

Moreover, liberal protestants, secular humanists and pagan agnostic Europeans are in for the rudest awakening of all. They will all be consigned to the ash heeps and foot notes of history by the fundamentalist Christian civilization that is coming to supercede them. They don't have the will to survive and fight Islam. The third world Christian wave is ready and willing to take on Islam. Look at the Sudan, all Islam sponsored war in Africa, the Phillipines etc.

Get ready for the real thing. The new world order will be the domination of populations belonging to third world Christianity.

150 posted on 05/31/2003 9:16:31 AM PDT by Podkayne
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To: Stefan Stackhouse
I wouldn't call call Aristotle merely a scribe. After all, he is the first man that we know of who was a keen observer of nature, both living, and non living, and offer up some sort of coherent theories as to the make up of things and how they functioned. Also, offered up a counterpoint to Plato's forms. Probably his most glaring weakness was that he spread himself too thin. The guy was interested in everything under the sun (and the sun too).

As for Homer, The Illiad and The Oddessy were written so far back before the period we are discussing, until we don't have any real evidence as to exactly when they were written, or in fact, that anyone named Homer even wrote the things. Herodotus told a good story, but only in a generalized way can we say that his "Histories" is really a history book. Rather, I would say it is part travellog and part fairy tales. He did tell a good story, as I said, and he did give good insight into some of the more obscure cultures of the near east. His is a great work no doubt, but one has to realize what it is, and accept it as that.

I would say that Thucydides was a more accurate and insightful historian.

151 posted on 05/31/2003 9:18:27 AM PDT by GaConfed
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To: ArneFufkin
I agree and look at Islam from a memetic pov (point of view). I have known of few major Philosophers that thought highly of this Religion which as you rightly point out appears to be highly resistant to change and carries with it a highly militaristic component.

* What is a meme?

* Memes are the basic building blocks of our minds and culture, in the same way that genes are the basic building blocks of biological life.

* Isn't memetics just a fancy name for _________ (fill in the blank with "cultural evolution", "behavioral psychology", "sociobiology", or anything else)? Why is this anything new?

* The breakthrough in memetics is in extending Darwinian evolution to culture. There are several exciting conclusions from doing that, one of which is the ability to predict that ideas will spread not because they are "good ideas", but because they contain "good memes" such as danger, food and sex that push our evolutionary buttons and force us to pay attention to them.

* Who invented memes?

* Oxford zoologist Richard Dawkins is credited with first publication of the concept of meme in his 1976 book The Selfish Gene.

* If memes control our thoughts and therefore our actions, what about free will?

* We continually understand more and more about how our bodies and minds work. We now know that trillions of organic nanomachines in the cells of our bodies work together to give us life. Neither that understanding nor the new understanding of our minds that memetics will give us should affect the philosophical question of free will.

* In Virus of the Mind, you seem to neglect truth as a main reason that memes replicate, focusing instead on psychological button-pushing, evangelism, and other non-obvious means. Why?

* First, the theoretical reason. Our minds evolved to support survival and reproduction in the ancestral environment (Stone Age). The kind of truth that would have aided that would have pertained to knowledge of terrain, seasons, and so on. These things are concrete and simple. Our society today is so complex that concrete and simple things that "make sense" are likely to out-compete "true" memes that are less appealing. Second, empirical evidence shows that students are getting worse and worse at knowledge tests.

152 posted on 05/31/2003 9:21:37 AM PDT by Helms (Dems Find Smoking Gun: 45-55 Loss in Senate, Bush Wins 2nd Term)
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To: GaConfed
His is a great work no doubt, but one has to realize what it is, and accept it as that

Why is it a great work?

153 posted on 05/31/2003 9:22:38 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: ffusco
Oh I see. Caligula and the rest of those would-be 'gods' were not a disaster for the Roman Empire and Europe, Christiandom was a disaster for Europe.

I sense a propblem of the will here, not the intellect. No one smart enough to use a computer could possibly make the statement you made unless a willful blindness is throughly in place.

The Roman Empire was falling from its own corruption, as all power tends to do. Only because of the saving work of Jesus Christ on its citizens could a handful of nations rise from the ashes of the Roman Empire to rule the rest of the world for about two centuries. Without that spiritual capital, the nations of western Europe would not have been exalted over other nations of the world.

As the light of Christiandom faded from those shores, it burned more brightly in American and we had "the American Century". If you want to know what nations will be the greatest nations on Earth a generation from now, look on the nations where the Gospel of Jesus Christ is ascendant. This is the lesson of History since the reformation.
154 posted on 05/31/2003 9:24:19 AM PDT by Ahban
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To: Hugenot
The Eurocrats in Brussels are as allergic to Christianity as vampires are to crucifixes.
155 posted on 05/31/2003 9:24:40 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: Podkayne
The new world order will be the domination of populations belonging to third world Christianity

The third world part is the deal killer.

156 posted on 05/31/2003 9:25:12 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: ffusco; TheAngryClam
My #154 is actaully meant for "The Angry Mollusk".
157 posted on 05/31/2003 9:26:43 AM PDT by Ahban
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To: TheAngryClam
Once, it was like Islam is now, full of fire and passion and global conquest, but now is nothing more than memories.

Don't know many Christians, do you? The fire among many young Catholics in this Country is palpable. And we're having lots of kids, while our secular brethren are wasting away...

I don't really mind, either. The glory of European civilization came from the pagan parts- Rome and Greece, and their rebirth and rejection of Christianity in the Renaissance and Enlightenment.

Boy, you bought the academic "Western Civ" view of history hook, line, and sinker, didn't you? If not for Christianity, there would have been no Renaissance, no "Enlightenment." If not for Christians, the works of classical Greece and Rome would have been lost to us. If not for valiant Christians at Tours, at Constantinople, at Jerusalem, on Malta, at Lepanto, at Vienna, etc., Europe may have been overrun by Islam on any number of occasions. Any guesses as to what an Islamic Europe would have meant to the "Renaissance" and "Enlightenment?" And certainly, without Christianity, there could not have been a United States.

You want to talk about "tired", try studying the later Roman/Byzantine Empire period. False dead-end that it was, paganism was recognized as a fraud by most Romans as early as late Republican Roman times. It wasn't paganism that led to the greatness of Rome and Greece. Both cultures possessed an inherent longing for the truth--both in terms of science and religion. It was this inherent virtue that allowed Greco-Roman civilization to create an educational system without equal in the ancient world. It was this same inherent virtue that caused them to eventually reject paganism and accept Christianity (with a little help from the Holy Spirit, no doubt!)

Another example of "tired" would be our current anti-Christian postmodern culture. It is moribund; its advocates are aging and those replacing them aren't nearly as convincing charlatans as they were. While you may not realize it yet, the zeitgeist is moving again...
158 posted on 05/31/2003 9:31:00 AM PDT by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces )
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To: ffusco
And the notion that all virtues came exclusively from Christianity is preposterous. As if the pagans threw out the baby with the bath water.

Actually, the pagans did practice infanticide with some regularity....

Of course, the Romans had virtues of their own. It was these virtues that made the segue to Christianity so natural and easy for them.
159 posted on 05/31/2003 9:33:56 AM PDT by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces )
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To: ArneFufkin
Why is it a great work?

Good question. I'd say that any original thought that is written down for posterity, and is still read and taken seriously many years afterward is "great." And no, I don't think there are a lot of great works written in the last century or so. They haven't stood the test of time yet.

160 posted on 05/31/2003 9:34:43 AM PDT by GaConfed
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