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Yes, They Were Guilty. But of What Exactly? [NYT FINALLY admits Rosenbergs were guilty!]
NY Times ^ | June 15, 2003 | SAM ROBERTS

Posted on 06/15/2003 6:43:14 AM PDT by Pharmboy

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To: liberallarry
We're better planners because we allow "stupid" people to run their own lives, because we cater to people's actual interests rather than to what's best for them, because capitalism is a system in which low level chaos actually strengthens the system.

If by smart people you mean people who acknowlege and support this system, I'm with you. But I don't see much support for this system at harvard. The Economics Dpartment at Chicago, maybe.

281 posted on 06/17/2003 11:56:16 AM PDT by js1138
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To: Zack Nguyen
humanists, atheists and socialist

I like humanists and athiests much more than you do - and I'm less sweeping and less certain in my criticism of socialistism.

However, I do have big problems with current left-wing political thought...I can't stand political correctness. More generally, the Left has a basic problem; at bottom, they're trying to justify greater rewards for the meek, the weak, the dumb, the unlucky - life's losers. Not an easy task. Some very, very famous people have tried and failed on this one.

None-the-less Leftists intellectuals, if they're capable and good at their job (as opposed to incompetent, foolish, and intolerant) deserve respect.

282 posted on 06/17/2003 11:56:36 AM PDT by liberallarry
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To: liberallarry
Why?
283 posted on 06/17/2003 12:02:12 PM PDT by MEG33
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To: js1138
smart people can be wrong about some things...and still be smart

i know a smart person when i see one - i assess how he thinks acts and talks. his social position and formal education count...but they're secondary. i don't have to agree with his politics, his religion, his ethics to judge him.

maybe you have different standards

284 posted on 06/17/2003 12:05:37 PM PDT by liberallarry
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To: MEG33
Why do people who don't agree with you deserve respect? Is that a serious question?
285 posted on 06/17/2003 12:08:55 PM PDT by liberallarry
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To: liberallarry
However, I do have big problems with current left-wing political thought...

Can you give me an example of left wing thought that is worthy of respect even if it isn't current?

I can offer some possibilities: the anti-Jim Crow movement of the 50s and 60s -- but this was really started back in the 1800s by Republicans, so I consider it an ethical issue rather than liberal or conservative. Welfare -- but this goes back at least as far as jewish law, which mandated "leavings" for the poor at harvest time.

I would argue that most of the issues with which liberals justify their supposed moral superiority are neither liberal nor conservative. they are matters of personal character.

286 posted on 06/17/2003 12:09:41 PM PDT by js1138
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To: liberallarry
I never argued about whether people differ in IQ and education. I simply don't want to be governed by people chosen on these factors. If smart people with other qualities manage to get elected, that's OK.
287 posted on 06/17/2003 12:12:47 PM PDT by js1138
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To: liberallarry
I don't think anyone deserves respect.They earn respect.
288 posted on 06/17/2003 12:24:20 PM PDT by MEG33
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To: DPB101
Soviet spy master, Paul Sudoplatov of SMERSH, revealed he worked with Szilard and others to the detriment of the US.
289 posted on 06/17/2003 12:26:10 PM PDT by HISSKGB
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To: liberallarry
More generally, the Left has a basic problem; at bottom, they're trying to justify greater rewards for the meek, the weak, the dumb, the unlucky - life's losers.

I wouldn't call someone who is weak, meek or unlucky "losers." However, I do agree that political correctness is an attempt at social coercion. You should consider that, because frankly many points of political correctness reflect the viewpoint of socialists and atheists.

I agree that everyone deserves respect.

290 posted on 06/17/2003 1:26:40 PM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: HISSKGB; liberallarry
I have been googling and reading about your Sudoplatov.Fascinating and controversial.I have read also a frightening statement made by Bertrand Russell about germ warfare as a means of population control!Seems also scientists put themselves on a moral plane that ignores national interests.Our scientists were not very careful about our secrets.
291 posted on 06/17/2003 1:28:45 PM PDT by MEG33
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To: js1138
Can you give me an example of left wing thought that is worthy of respect even if it isn't current?

I'll take you literally - your mean thoughts rather than thinkers. Also, I have to be a little loose in my interpretations since ideas are cumulative - they build on the past.

How about the counter-syclic economic ideas of John Maynard Keynes? The kibbutzim of the Zionists? Fabian socialism and syndicalism? Modern trade unions? Universal health care? Social Security (even though that's usually attributed to a very conservative 19th century German)? Child labor laws? Environmental preservation? General tolerance (although this one too has many fathers)?

That's just off the top of my head. Also the anti-slavery laws which you attribute to Republicans - who were very left-wing by the standards of the time. Keep in mind also that Adam Smith and capitalism represented Left-wing liberals in his day. On the right were aristocrats, monarchists, and much different economic ideas.

292 posted on 06/17/2003 1:29:05 PM PDT by liberallarry
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To: MEG33
They earn respect

That was my earning. Your adversaries can earn your respect. In less barbarous times, among less barbarous peoples, warriors often honored their foes if they displayed courage and skill in combat.

293 posted on 06/17/2003 1:33:14 PM PDT by liberallarry
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To: Zack Nguyen
When I said respect is earned..I meant deferential or esteemed treatment.To give special recognition to them for some quality.
294 posted on 06/17/2003 1:35:12 PM PDT by MEG33
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To: MEG33
I have read also a frightening statement made by Bertrand Russell about germ warfare as a means of population control!

I'd like to see that one. Population control was on everyone's mind and they were much less politically correct, much more direct about their ideas and methods.

295 posted on 06/17/2003 1:36:09 PM PDT by liberallarry
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To: liberallarry
How about the counter-syclic economic ideas of John Maynard Keynes? The kibbutzim of the Zionists? Fabian socialism and syndicalism? Modern trade unions? Universal health care? Social Security (even though that's usually attributed to a very conservative 19th century German)? Child labor laws? Environmental preservation? General tolerance (although this one too has many fathers)?

These are good ideas? I think what you have is a laundry list of good intentions, but things that don't survive in application. Social security, basically a forced retirement investment, cannot survive its Ponzi financing without an expanding economy, so why not put the investments directly in mutual funds? Trade unions are important in an era when corporations are allowed to run like organized crime, but unions are essentially the employers of their members, just like temporary employment agencies. So who protects the worker against the union, which is now the employer?

Basically I'm dubious of any idea that involves involuntary subscription.

296 posted on 06/17/2003 1:41:26 PM PDT by js1138
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To: Zack Nguyen
You should consider that, because frankly many points of political correctness reflect the viewpoint of socialists and atheists

Yah. True. But not necessarily so - that's just the direction of modern-day leftist thinking. It began in the '60s when freedom of opportunity didn't lead immediately to equality of result. That's where the Lefties lost me...and a lot of others.

More generally, social coercion comes with every social system. Choose your poison.

297 posted on 06/17/2003 1:42:40 PM PDT by liberallarry
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To: liberallarry
I know about eugenics,too.The Russell quote was in my googling search..don't know which source.He was against war as it had been practiced and was musing about the difficulty of implementing socialism with the problem posed by overpopulation.
298 posted on 06/17/2003 1:43:36 PM PDT by MEG33
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To: MEG33
Well, in that case, I do not think that leftist intellectuals are deserving of any special recognition for great quality of work.
299 posted on 06/17/2003 1:43:40 PM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: liberallarry
New oxford review.Bertrand Russell The New World Order.I googled Overpopulation,Bertrand Russell.VERY interesting!
300 posted on 06/17/2003 1:50:49 PM PDT by MEG33
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