Evolution through the Back Door

Various | 6/15/2003 | Alamo-Girl

[RightWhale]

A great part of the problem, for example materiality, is that ideas have been contributed to the body of thought in many different languages. Gurfjieff said that everything was material, just different degrees of fineness. He might have said that in Russian, Armenian, or English, doing a running translation as he went and causing ideas somewhat different from his own to appear in the listener's mind. We might observe cyberspace or the noosphere and consider it material somehow. Plato's materiality might be different from Kant's materiality only in that the language each used was different and both are being rendered in English. It's just another level of complication to add to the normal complexity of communicating ideas to family and friends who supposedly speak the same language.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your post! It was quite engaging.

For Lurkers interested in following up on your statement that "In physics time/space is same thing" I'd like to offer this link on the construction of the Lorentz Transformation

Is the process of differentiation named creation or evolution? From my perspective it's all about the intent of describing the process. Is mystery mechanical or is mechanical mysterious? Both perspectives can lead to greater knowledge. All that matters is honest exposition.

IMHO, there would probably not be so great a hostility, and little offense to the mention of intelligent design or evolution, if there were no political and ideological agendas.

We will never fully grasp the ultimate void (beginning) unless we perceive undifferentiatedness - meaning no consciousness or memory in the sense that we can describe it to one another in linear time-dependent symbolism (language).

Indeed, null beginning is a concept which exceeds the capability of language. But the geometric mechanics (4D space/time) are more accessible from the higher dimensional dynamics:

Classical and Quantized Aspects of Dynamics in Five Dimensional Relativity (pdf)

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your insight!

In the last analysis, believing there is a Creator at work but we don't grasp the complexities yet is preferrable, to this amateur. To believe otherwise holds the potential for a possibly unpleasant surprise once one is 'beyond' the confines of spacetime as we experience it. Why chance the alternative when nothing compels one to reject the notion of a Creator at work?

A very good point. Thank you!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the kudos and encouragement! I look forward to your comments!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for sharing your reactions! Hugs and *smooches*!

I got into the Plato/Aristotle debate because, laying the Intelligent Design Movement aside, IMHO it lies at the root of what the mathematicians and physicists are bringing to "the table."

As to the beginnings, well, I guess you are right - I am philosophically audacious - but it seemed appropriate to connect the thoughts.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your post!

With all due admiration for your unbounded energy, this is not a new approach at all.

Indeed, it is however a new approach for me and my collection of musings - and it is new for the debate here on the forum.

The hope is that one of these days, the mathematicians and physicist who devise elegant, clean, simple models of evolution might bother to learn some actual biology.

I tried to use some mathematicians and physicists who would pass your scrutiny on that very point. Rocha and Pattee came from your Santa Fe lead. And Yockey from the same line of research, he authored the book "Information Theory and Molecular Biology." And of course, Schützenberger was a doctor of medicine as well as a mathematician.

[Alamo-Girl]

You are quite welcome, knarf! I look forward to your comments!

[AZLiberty]

The commonality of genes between diverse species has, besides inheritance, another possible source: "horizontal gene transfer". Bacteria can introduce genes into their hosts, and retroviruses are known to carry genes between animals of the same species (and may carry genes between species as well).

Ref: T.A. Brown, Genomes. Wiley, 1999.

[Alamo-Girl]

Great catch! Excellent points. Thank you for your post!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your post and the excerpt!

[Old Professer]

...cosmological scenarios are offered that in one way or another repropose a form of the old principle of plenitude ("everything that can exist, does exist"). The existence is thus postulated of an infinity of chances, among which "our case" becomes an obvious favorable case (today the most popular form is that of multi-universes). What is your view on this?

It is very possible, but it is not physics. It is a metaphysics in which recourse is made to a chance that is so enormously limitless that everything that is possible is real. But in this way it becomes a confrontation between metaphysics in which chance collides with purpose. This latter, however, seems much easier to believe! Physics up to now has been based on measurable "data." Beyond this it is a passage of metaphysics. At this point I compare it with another metaphysics. Those who sustain these viewpoints (like Stephen Hawking, for instance) should realize that this goes beyond physics; otherwise it is exaggerated. Physics, pushed beyond what it can measure, becomes ideology.

For whatever reason, this part leaped off the screen as I read it; likely for its reference to purpose and the conclusion leading to ideology.

This is difficult reading due mainly to its length and formatting on this small screen; I could follow it better if your first person remarks were non-italicized ariel font and others in a contrasting form.

It sure is one heck of an effort.

[Old Professer]

In this one paragraph, you have dismissed the entirety of her work; is that your intent?

I once remarked that after the scientists defrocked the priests that they would assume their robes, I was merely kidding at the time.

[PatrickHenry]

... is that your intent?

No.

[f.Christian]

ABIOGENESIS

That slow process by which living organisms were spontaneously generated from non-living matter. This scientific fact should not be confused with the old discredited myth of spontaneous generation by which it was once foolishly believed that living organisms arose from non-living matter. (see Law of Biogenesis).

A.C.L.U.

An organization that zealously protects our American civil liberties by preventing students in public schools from considering scientific evidence that is either consistent with creation or critical of evolution.

BIG BANG

The mechanism, or at least the noise, by which all matter and energy came into existence billions of years ago.

BIOLOGY

The branch of the exact sciences which is exclusively concerned with the evolution of living organisms by means of random mutations and natural selection.

DROSOPHILA

The "guinea pig" of the evolutionist to which we all owe a debt of gratitude for our understanding of the role of mutations in evolution. Trillions of generations of these rapidly breeding little flies have had their wings crumpled and their eyes damaged by strong mutagenic agents to provide us with a genetic insight into how man evolved from the prehominid brutes in a few thousand generations.

EVOLUTION

A truly perfect scientific theory which explaims in detail how everything in the universe came into being -- slowly. The theory of evolutions is so perfect and flexible in its ability to explain virtually all observable phemomena or opinions that it would be impossible to even conceive of an experiment capable of disproving it. (see Law).

GEOLOGIC COLUMN

A precise hierarchy of fossilized animals and plants of known age found in successive layers of stratified rock with the simplest and oldest at the bottom and the most highly evolved, i.e., most recent, at the top. Uninterrupted columns of this type may be found in any book of geology, paleontology or evolution. Bits and pieces of the column may even be found in the stratified rocks of the earth, but since these layers are often out of correct order and very incomplete, one should study the geologic column in books, not nature.

HOPEFUL MONSTER THEORY

A concept first introduced out of necessity by the geneticist, Richard Goldschmidt, which states that evolution occurs by sudden and large changes in the offspring of a species resulting in radically different but well adapted organisms, i.e. "hopeful monsters." After being widely discredited for many years this idea is being reintroduced, out of necessity, as a serious theory. The great leaps forward implicit in this theory entirely account for the absence of the "missing links." (See Punctuated Equilibrium)

INDEX FOSSILS

Fossils of animals whose ages are precisely known from the age of the rocks in which they are found, thus, serving as a means for accurately dating the rocks in which they are found as well as the age of any other fossils that may be contained therein.

LAW

In science, a statement of fact about a sequence or phenomenon that has been invariably observed to occur under known conditions such as, for example, the theory of evolution. (see Evolution).

LAW OF BIOGENESIS

Simply states the obvious...that all life comes from pre-existing life. This law, which was confirmed by Redi and Pasteur, permanently laid to rest the ludicrous idea of the ignorant ancients that living organisms could spring from inanimate matter. It should be emphasized that this law in no way precludes the slow origin of living organisms from inanimate matter through the process of evolution - after all, we are here, aren't we? (see Abiogenesis).

LIFE

The only term in this dictionary that defies definition since it has been said that "the division of matter into living and nonliving is perhaps an arbitrary one. It is a convenient method for distinguishing, for instance, a man from a rock." (quoted verbatim from The Origins of Life, by Cyril Ponnamperuma, 1962, H. P. Dutton, New York, p. 36).

MICROSPHERES

Primitive cells which have been artificially synthesized from simple laboratory reagents. As the name implies, the principal similarity between microspheres and living cells is that both are small and sort of round.

MISSING LINKS

An inconceivably vast assemblage of plants and animals which are intermediate in their evolutionary development between all of the discrete kinds of plants and animals one sees either alive or in the fossil record. Unfortunately as the name implies they are missing.

MUTATIONS

A change in the genetic material (DNA) of the cell induced by hazardous chemicals or radiation which in addition to killing or maiming organisms will, given enough time and enough mutations, inexorably lead some organisms on to an ever more successful and adaptive life.

NATURAL SELECTION

That miraculous process by which incredibly complex and useful structures, such as the eye or brain, are culled out from a vast array of random and purposeless mutations. In the distant past this marvelous natural artificer has produced the whole scope of existence from molecules to man but today it appears to be limiting its activities to such mundane matters as controlling the relative numbers of white and black moths in England.

NEO-DARWINIAN EVOLUTION

An embellishment of the old Darwinian theory of evolution, it states that random changes (mutations) in the genome of an organism will be selected for, and thus contribute to the evolution of the new species, only if they ultimately lead to a greater number of offspring. Thus, an ever-increasing rate of reproduction entirely accounts for the evolution from bacteria to man.

ONTOGENY RECAPITULATES PHYLOGENY

A law first discovered by Ernst Haeckel which if pronounced correctly and with conviction, impresses laymen and students of science in the elementary grades. Simply stated, and thus less convincingly, it means that the embryos of all animals bother to provide a historical review of many stages of their evolution during their embryological development. Although this type of reminiscing is touching and is taught in almost every general science and biology text book, it is no longer accepted by scientists or even evolutionists.

PHYLOGENETIC TREE

A tree that grows mainly in textbooks of biology and which has a variety of both contemporary and fossil animals perched on the tips of its branches. This tree clearly shows how all of these animals branched off from common ancestors a long time ago. For some reason the common ancestors are never shown sitting in the crotches of the tree. Plants presumably grow on different trees which are rather rare.

PILTDOWN MAN

Once known by all true scholars of human evolution to be an ancient ancestor of man. This true "ape man" had the jaw of a modern ape and the skull of a modern man. Today this ape-man is not so well known among true scholars of evolution.

PRIMITIVE

Old, inferior, poorly adapted, less evolved, shoddy, bungling.

PROOF

The assimilation of data in such a way that the desired conclusion seems to be the most plausible hypothesis.

PROTOZOA

As the name implies, these are known to be the first true animals on earth. If these primitive organisms had continued to adapt to their changing environment they might still be with us today.

PUNCTUATED EQUILIBRIUM

An ad hoc hypothesis or alibi that claims the reason there are no known transitional forms in the fossil record is because evolutionary changes occur so quickly and the reason we can't see evolutionary changes in the laboratory is because they occur so slowly. (see Hopeful Monster Theory).

RADIOCARBON DATING

A remarkably precise method of actually measuring the age of any carbon-containing sample. Except for certain spurious (young) dates, radiocarbon, like other methods involving the decay of radionuclides will, given several absolutely safe assumptions, invariably indicate a ripe old age for any specimen consistent with a slow process of evolution.

SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS

One of the most fundamental laws of science which essentially states that nothing can increase in order, complexity, or information but rather everything form the universe to the one-horse shay will in time fall apart (not assemble). We may be sure, however, that the mind-boggling increase in order, complexity and information accomplished by the evolution of chemicals to man in no way violates this law or it wouldn't have happened.

SELECTIVE PRESSURE

That natural and highly selective pressure that actually forces particularly useful structures such as brains, eyes, legs, wings and long necks on giraffes to evolve by random mutations. Unnecessary structures such as eyelids on your navel fail to evolve by chance because there is no selective pressure for this.

SPECULATION

The single most powerful tool in the hands of the evolutionists.

SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST

The most important contribution of Darwin to biological thought which states that only those organisms which are fit survive, or in other words, survival is the result of being fit. By this kind of logic it can also be proven that loss of vision is a principal cause of blindness.

THEISTIC EVOLUTION

The belief that the evolutionary account of origins (where everything ascends from a very imperfect state to a more nearly perfect state) and the Biblical account of origins (where everything descends from a perfect state to a very imperfect state) are both true.

TIME

That miracle ingredient which in sufficient quantity can give scientific credibility to any hypothesis no matter how improbable. It is a well- known axiom of science for example, that given enough time virtually anything is possible - indeed you might even say it has to happen.

TREE

That which only evolution can make. (see Phylogenetic Tree).

VESTIGIAL ORGANS

Organs or other body parts, left over from evolutionary ancestors, which are no longer used or needed by an organism that has become more highly evolved by abandoning organs and getting simpler. Seventy years ago man had nearly one hundred vestigial organs such as the parathyroid, tonsils, coccyx, etc., but today he has very few vestigial organs because a good use has been discovered for most of these organs.

XERDEMA PIGMENTOSA

A disease of man in which certain enzymes which normally repair mutations of DNA fail to do so resulting in malignant tumors of the skin which are often fatal. Since it is well known that mutations were essential for the evolution of man from primitive cells, we must assume that too much of even a good thing like mutations is bad for us.


390 posted on 06/11/2003 12:49 AM PDT by razorbak

[general_re]

According to Sir Karl Popper, when given two theories an experiment will decide one true and one false.

Pardon me, but depending on the question, both theories about whatever it is could very well be wrong, or both could be partially right. Life is very rarely so neat and clean as to present you with exactly two possible answers, one absolutely right, and the other absolutely wrong. ;)

[Drammach]

I tend to agree with MHGinTN; ( I think ;0P )

As an agnostic, (NOT "Atheist", PLEASE!) I believe in God, but do not believe science will ever produce a proof or disproof of God's existence.
It is something we as human beings will never comprehend, so we just accept it on Faith.
So much for "causality". ( Wasn't my fault mom, God did it. )

Since God created this universe in which we live, God also created the physical laws under which it operates.
This not only encompasses the laws of mass, energy, space-time, motion, gravity, etc., but the laws concerning the formation of life.

I therefore have no problem with evolution as an explanation of how life exists, and how human beings came to be.
That is the way God decided to make the rules, and so it is.
We are continually learning new things about this universe which we live in and we may some day find some of our "assumptions" are incorrect.
( Hey! It could happen! )
It wouldn't be the first time someone's mathematical / physical laws were found to need adjustment.
Newton had to put up with Einstein being closer to the truth than he was. ( actually not, he was already dead. )
Likewise, Einstein couldn't accept the idea that God would "throw dice", but, (for the meantime) has been proven wrong.

Getting back to the point, God is incomprehensible. Get used to it.
God created the universe, and life, and the rules.
We live in the universe God created, and we are life, we just haven't figured out the rules yet, and may continue to struggle with understanding our ONE universe until humanity's demise.
Two out of three ain't bad.

I can imagine the last humans standing on a distant planet at the edge of the universe.
They are praying to a God they believe exists, even though they have not been able to prove it, mathematically or scientifically.
They are asking God to grant them more time, they are sure they can figure it out, if they just could have some more time...

[Drammach]

Strictly speaking, these experiments "prove" is that what they are seeing is neither a particle nor a wave. Which of course physicists have known for a while. They know that using the concepts of "particles" and "waves" are just that -- concepts.

While I would concede the point concerning "concepts", I always thought the explanation was that light was a particle that traversed space-time in the form of a wave.
Am I incorrect in this assumption? ( All these years? )

[JmyBryan]

Of course, human consciousness seems to carry with it strong impulse to ideological belief, which may in fact be the impetus to symbolic representation.

Mathematics is certainly more apt to provide useful description of extra-dimensional "realities" BUT we're still discovering mis- and reinterpretations of the particle trails of atom-smashers. Not to mention the new stuff.

Your links are excellent, thank you.

Seems were all sitting around waiting for proof of the Higgs Boson, right? LOL

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/06/05/universe.origins.reut/

[MHGinTN]

[Second Law Of Thermodynamics] We may be sure, however, that the mind-boggling increase in order, complexity and information accomplished by the evolution of chemicals to man in no way violates this law or it wouldn't have happened. That is a rather circular argument which assumes the law to be totally valid while at the same time excluding the notion of design on a higher scale in operation. Biological entities, for a time, appear to overcome entropy, on the scale of their existence and the existence of their offspring.

"Phylogeny recapitulates ontogeny" ... lost in the grudging acceptance of facts.

[MHGinTN]

Have you ever been struck by the notion that an individual alive organism is a simile of the 'collapse of the wave function' while its 'soul' (aliveness')is bussing about in spacetime, only to be released back to the wave function upon death of the bus?