The Evil of Dating (Dating vs.Courtship)

The sad part is, I USED to believe all that. I learned the hardest, most painful way possible that it just isn't true.

The biggest joke of all, is that when I read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye", I realized that, for the most part, that's what I'd been doing all along. I could have written that book myself, except that by the time it was published I'd learned the hard way that it didn't work.

BTW, that book wasn't really anything new, it just codified and collected a lot of ideas that had been fed piecemeal into the minds of a lot of Christians for a long time. I had even come to a lot of the same conclusions independently.

Admittedly, the idea of actually *not dating at all* had never occurred to me, since I had not (AND STILL HAVE NOT) figured out an alternative method of finding and getting to know potential prospects -- but, my approach to relationships was very much like what was described in that book. And guess what: it was a miserable failure. There I was, single, still a virgin, and 35, laughed at as a "geek" by all the girls, and occasionally told that I was "too serious" or "came on too strong"... while other guys got all the girls. Oh, yes, I should mention: Christian girls are frequently the cruelest of all.

Anyway... Something had to change. And it did. My parents had been telling me all my life, to get out and casually date lots of people. Oh no, I protested - I wanted to get to know the girls well first, through Bible studies, etc -- I didn't just want to ask out random women. Stupid, stupid, stupid me -- turns out Mom & Dad were RIGHT ALL ALONG, and the Church folks were wrong. When I finally, angrily snapped, decided to kiss WAITING goodbye, and did it my parents' way, my fortunes started to change rapidly -- I met several good prospects in short order, and was married within 3 years.

The happy ending: My wife and I met on the internet, dated 6 months, were engaged 6 months, and had sex for the first time on the wedding night. That was a little over a year ago, and we are expecting our first baby in October. All of these happy events would NEVER HAVE OCCURRED if I had fallen into the "courtship trap".

Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall when dealing with courtship advocates. I hope that's not the case with you. If you are able, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, I beg you, for the sake of the singles who will be so terribly hurt by extreme courtship teaching -- HEAR me on this: The "no-dating" doctrine, however well intentioned it may be, is KEEPING PEOPLE SINGLE who shouldn't be. The fortunate few who grow up in close knit Christian communities, especially homeschooler networks, may have an easy time identifying a suitable partner and setting up the formal courtship mechanism once they do, but I BEG you to open your eyes and realize that this represents a TRIFLING percentage of the population. Courtship is simply NOT AN OPTION for most singles, and by stigmatizing dating you run the risk of keeping people single for life. Biblically, you don't want to do that:

I Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

These women were way too stupid to be going to college.

The Computer Industry teaches us there are two kinds of Stupid. There is hardware stupid and there is software stupid.

Children of financially successful people are seldom hardware stupid. Their parents would not be able to afford to send them to college if their genes contained hardware stupidity. So it has to be software stupidity that's their problem.

In many situations, the kids weren't software stupid when they first came to college. But then they met the other kids there, they got into campus culture, and they had teachers who taught moral relativism. And thus they were programmed into their stupidity.

And even the best computer hardware doesn't help you if your software programming has a bug that makes 2 and 2 equal 5.

You're leaving an important ingredient out.......God's will. My point is that you don't need to date a lot of women/men to find the one that God wants you to have as a life partner. I can give many examples, just in my own circle of friends and family.

There is no formula that works for everyone, and extreme positions on either side are dangerous, as in all situations. I don't recommend 'extreme courtship positions,' but I also know for a fact that you do NOT have to date a lot of people to find the person God wants you to marry. You just have to be obedient to HIS leading, wherever that takes you.

I'm sorry that you had a negative experience because you didn't date, but you need to be careful not to assume that everyone's experience will be the same as yours either.

What I have been referring to all along here (in case you didn't read all my posts), is that it is far better for teenagers not to date.......not adults. It is a dangerously sexual world for young people, and it's best for high school kids not to get into one on one situations with a date that could lead to disastrous consequences.

And in no case did I say that one should never go on a date. I think you may have misread my position. However, our own four children (23, 21, 19 and 16) have all opted not to date on a regular basis, and my husband and I have strongly encouraged that decision.

You're leaving an important ingredient out.......God's will.

You're assuming that it is predestined. My understanding of it, both scriptural and experiential, leaves substantial room for free will. I've seen people walk away from what seemed to be *obvious* divine setups, and suffer for it. Yet the "dumped" party eventually married someone else -- was that predestined before the earth was created? I don't think so.

My point is that you don't need to date a lot of women/men to find the one that God wants you to have as a life partner.

Sometimes you do. Sometimes it takes a diligent, targeted effort to locate potential partners -- especially in major metropolitian areas where the Christians are few and far between. Some guys just won't find a mate unless they visit other churches, join Christian dating services, troll the Christian internet sites, and take lots of different Christian women to dinner -- and keep it up until something clicks with somebody. Courtship advocates sternly discourage that sort of effort, of course. Yet, none of them could tell me an alternative.

...in no case did I say that one should never go on a date. I think you may have misread my position.

Since you advocated "I Kissed Dating Goodbye", I made that assumption. If the author had limited the book's scope to teenagers, it wouldn't be all that bad, but he didn't -- and a lot of adult singles ditched dating at his word, without having an alternative path to the altar...

However, our own four children (23, 21, 19 and 16) have all opted not to date on a regular basis

How, exactly, do you define that basis? If you mean, your kids don't have a compulsive need to go out with someone, anyone, every weekend, I wholeheartedly agree. If one doesn't know anyone potentially worth pursing, going out with anyone just for the sake of going out is ridiculous, sexually dangerous, and expensive.

Sadly, a lot of Christian women seem to have the idea that they have a "right" to be taken out regularly, and if no Christian man asks them out, they'll date nonbelievers (and if challenged, will indignantly defend that decision thus: "They're the only ones asking!" -- which, often isn't even the truth!). Meanwhile, the Christian guys, for the most part, have the faith to *sit at home* Friday and Saturday nights rather than be in a spiritually unequal dating situation. Ugh. Bad memories...

But "not dating on a regular basis", is a big, big difference from "not dating at all", which is the "offical" courtship party line.

I recommend the book as a good point of departure for a general position that dating is vastly overrated, and downright dangerous for teens......but expected by society. Swallowing any one person's philosophy from a book, hook, line and sinker is not smart in any case, and I never said that I had done so (In fact I said the opposite). You definitely misread my endorsement of the book as being more than it was.

As to the predestination, this is not the thread to get into a discussion of Calvinism vs. Armenianism. I know that my husband is the absolutely perfect person for me to have to spend my life with, and I cannot attribute our meeting to either chance, or to my own free will. I don't deserve him.

And now I will leave this discussion with my impression of you......you have found the right wife for you, and you are griping because you didn't marry someone else sooner because you didn't date.

It looks to me like you need to be thankful for what you have, give up the pity party you seem to be in, and at the same time, let others make their own choices, even if they are different from your own.

You definitely misread my endorsement of the book as being more than it was.

Glad to hear it.

my impression of you......you have found the right wife for you, and you are griping because you didn't marry someone else sooner because you didn't date.

Careful. First, I never claimed to "not date", only that my approach to dating was a lot closer to "courtship" in many respects... and that this was a mistake.

I did, however, find a perfect wife.

you need to ..give up the pity party you seem to be in, and at the same time, let others make their own choices

My wife and I minister to a lot of singles, both formally and informally - mainly because we didn't dump our single friends when we got married, and were asked to continue helping run the singles ministry even after we were no longer single. (There were staff layoffs at church about the same time, too).

"Pity party" isn't really the right word, but in dealing with the struggles of singles, we often find ourselves hauntingly reminded of our own, not so very long ago. If there really was a divine agenda in keeping me... us... single for so long, it was probably because these painful experiences have been so useful in helping us to counsel other singles.

But one of the things I counsel them, is, DON'T give up dating.

Regarding "pity parties" and the struggles of singleness, perhaps this article would help you have a more compassionate outlook towards those for whom singleness is an intense struggle (as it was for me, and as it still is for many of the folks we minister to):
Talkdown -- Preparing for Singleness When You'd Much Rather be Preparing for Marriage, by Ross Clark

One thing nearly all of these cases had in common is that their fathers are not providing the protection needed.

In numbers large enough to be significant, males have stopped being men and fathers. Successive generations of this phenomenon have now bred significant numbers of males who have no idea what it means to be a man, be father, be commited. They follow their selfish desires above all because no one has stepped in to show them the honor and social necessity of sacrifice and service. Public Enemy Numba One in the USA: the unfathered generations of men and women who flounder through life undirected.

congrats on your obedience and faith. My church is chock full of couple who courted and married under similar circumstances. Played in the praise band at wedding last year for a couple who were both virgins, both in their thirties. You could cut the sexual tension in that room with a knife. But it was glorious. Having lived a life far different than the bride and groom, I was struck by the undeniable "rightness" about what I was seeing. Life-changing, to be sure.

woops, forgot I was posting to a "dead" thread. anyway, whatevah, yada yada, etc...

Wow! This is a pretty old thread. :-) My wife and I are still doing really well, and will be having a baby in May! :-) Not bad for someone who had testicular cancer 7 years ago, hm?

that's awesome!

I found this thread on accident today while searching for a keyword that happened to be in the title.

Satan says: "Oh, You were married and the b!tch broke your heart and took all your stuff, huh? Well, here's your horns and pitchfork... Have fun!"

Satan:"Married twice, eh? You want a job?"