‘The Real Deal’ on women in Saudi

MSNBC ^ | 6-19-03 | Joe Scarborough

[Mamzelle]

re: You find flaws in everyone, don't you? First Ms. Roush and then the very authors and sources you referred me to. )))

I've read the NRO on Roush for a couple of years--you assumed at first that I was using them to support my position. I've said all along that Roush is playing them for fools, and in other threads on the same subject.

Since you shared your CV, I'll share a bit of mine. Helping out one of these women--and there are some definite neurotics among the abused, though I nowhere said that all of them were, that's your strawman--proved to be the single biggest error I've made in my life when compared to other costly errors. In large part, it happened because of my own vanity. I find that fault in myself, so it's easy to spot in Katie and Mowbray. "Oh boy, I get to be a heroine" is how it begins. Many times, our motives are mixed up. What we think is courage and compassion distills down to simple vanity.

I did know one "helper" who was a truly effective social worker--but she was known as one of the most hard-hearted nuns in existence. She was never a victim of her own vanity.

[JustPiper]

Our Freepers going through this are not liberals and they sure are not stupid!

[JustPiper]

What 'kind' of white horse are 'you' riding?

[JustPiper]

Bump Doc ;)

[JustPiper]

Maybe consider writing a magazine article on this subject - more women should know what you have had to learn the hard way.

Excellent idea, it should be published by INS!

[EverOnward]

Sorry to hear your troubles. I had no idea the State Department was so hostile to American mothers and their children.

[JustPiper]

I can handle some people telling me off about US politics (they are pretty stupid people, and don't make up my core of friends!)

And your new friends ;)

[JustPiper]

You've done everything right and should be applauded for it!

[JustPiper]

There is a streak of masochism in many women, sometimes it's a mile wide.

And there is a mean streak of sadism in these men that beat the women!

Hang around an ER for a few years, and watch the women come in

Please tell me your not a doctor? A nurse? Because you do not seem to have the compassion for the field that it requires to make you good to treat people. Do you need to become a victim to dispense of your seemingly cynical opinion?

We were not talking about Roush here, she was just a guest on the program and you cannot equate one case with another.Where is your objectivity and humanity?

[Mamzelle]

re: And there is a mean streak of sadism in these men that beat the women!)))

Yup. Complementary, isn't it all?

re: Where is your objectivity and humanity? )))

Attempting to throw me on the defensive doesn't much progress a discussion. I'm much more humane and objective without my illusions and delusions.

[hocndoc]

As I said, I was writing to inform on intimate partner violence, not to rescue Ms. Roush. The original story and thread are/were about Sarah Saga, who is definitely not to blame for her abuse. Personally, I don't believe Ms. Roush is either, and wonder why you are.


The very web page ("Pat's Story") you sent me to has criticism of Clinton, Feinstein, and Boxer as well as Reagan and the first Mr. Bush and was written in 1998.

"""My heart went out to her," says Wildes, who has two daughters himself. "Nothing to me would be worse than to have held my daughters as babies and not be able to hold them as they grow older.

"Our government has given up on her plight. The American government cares more about its oil and its military agenda than its daughters. A phone call from President Clinton to King Faud would have those girls on a plane in one day. He won't do it. He and Bush and Reagan turned it over to their staffs, who do nothing but give it the runaround, writing letters, putting up a faÊade instead of going to the Saudi government and working out an arrangement so the girls could spend equal time here and there."

It also gives examples of the way women are convinced to go along to get along,

"" To the diplomatic world, accustomed to linguistic niceties and composed deference, Roush inevitably can seem strident, overbearing. Indeed, Saudi officials demonstrate some disdain toward her, privately critical of what they consider her impertinence and impatience. Startlingly, they believe Roush should placate her husband, be more conciliatory.

"She has a thousand warrants for her husband's arrest out all over the world and then she wants him to be flexible," says a high-ranking Saudi official. "Put yourself in his shoes. ... If you found out that your husband is going around slamdunking you all over the world, making you out to be a criminal, a monster, would you be in any mood to be accommodating? "What if Mrs. Roush were for a change to be more accommodating, if she were to drop some of these warrants, be more flexible, be just a little bit more civilized about the whole thing, then what's the likelihood that the husband would be responsive?" The words gall Roush. Irretrievable years stolen from her, she's not willing to passively wait for a dubious reunion. "The situation has become a bit of a joke to the Saudis," she says in uncontained outrage. "They think "Your government isn't going to help you, won't back you up, why should we?' It shouldn't be that I'm a nuisance to my government, asking them to help me ..." ""

[FITZ]

When has the federal government ever solved a child custody dispute successfully? I can think of Jonestown, Waco, and Elian where the federal government got involved and they didn't turn out so well. The federal government should stay out of child custody disputes for many reasons. We have agreements with some countries on whether or not children will be returned to a parent because of US or the other citizenship ---but the Saudi government won't sign an agreement ---so how can we go to war over these issues? It's not as though they're breaking an agreement they made, they're upfront about it ---they consider these Arab citizens and don't recognize the US citizenship. The mothers should just do what the fathers did ---kidnap their children themselves. Once they're on US soil, the situation obviously changes, it's not likely the Saudis will attack the US either to get back these kids.

[JustPiper]

Yes, I'm emotional but I would like to thank you personally for your eloquent post. Those who victimize the victims are the ones who blame the victims. Blame does not help, it enables! I think the key to help is resources of getting out of a bad relationship, because getting out is the most lethal aspect!

I worked with the Illinois Commision and other activists back in 1992 to get our Stalking Laws passed. I appeared on Oprah and helped a wonderful author who to this day I think has written the best book on this subject:

I was part of this book first hand. Susan was the best activist women had representing them in Chicago and has since moved on politically, where she can help even more!

Please everyone check out these sample pages of the book:

Here

She covers everything a victim needs to know. Chapter 5, The Escape Plan is crucial and no one has ever written it like Susan. Please read if you need to leave an abusive situation!

[JustPiper]

Not baiting you...but you didn't answer my question if you were a doctor?

[Mamzelle]

re: who is definitely not to blame for her abuse. Personally, I don't believe Ms. Roush is either, and wonder why you are. )))

Me? Now I'm to blame for Roush's abuse? Heavens, it's 1986 all over again! Lemme outta here.

[Mr Rogers]

I read thru some of Pat Roush's web site - seems she criticizes those who won't help, and compliment those who will. Nice things said about Burton, who is hardly a Clintoon supporter.

I'm a big Bush supporter over-all, but I don't like coddling the Saudis. I believe he OUGHT to contact the Saudis on this personally. And if they won't budge, then maybe we could 'wink' at a 'private' organization that 'kidnaps' Americans out of Saudi. The Law is a tool. In the hands of good men, it is a force for good. In the hands of a Hitler or the Saudis, it is a force for evil.

[FITZ]

Gheshayan notched a dismal scholastic record. A transcript shows that out of 18 classes at San Francisco City College between 1975 and 1979, including grammar, criminal law, self defense and soccer, he failed or withdrew from all but two.

He and Roush met at a party in 1975. Roush was an anthropology student at San Francisco State University and a single mom, raising Dana, her daughter from her first marriage, which ended in 1971.

"My father had just died, I was alone, Khalid kept calling and giving me attention," Roush remembers. "He was constantly there, always flattering. It was a schoolgirl romanticism that made me want to marry a man from the Middle East."

The two married in 1978. Raised Catholic, Roush was pregnant with Alia and wanted her child to have a father. A few weeks after the birth of "the most beautiful baby that ever lived," Gheshayan was deported for failing to obtain proper visa documentation.

Divorced with a child in 1971, meets an alcoholic loser in 1975, marries the loser in 1978 when she finds she's pregnant, she thinks "schoolgirl romanticism" got her mixed up with this creep? She doesn't sound too with it herself ---she was a little too old at that point for schoolgirl stunts.

[hocndoc]

You're one of my heroes, then, because you've actually made a difference and probably saved lives. (Not pathological, neurotic hero worship, Mamzell, just acknowledgement)

*You* should apply to be on the National Advisory Committee on Violence Against Women. (You can apply for service in the Executive branch on the White House website.) I have a lot of work to do to justify my appointment.

[hocndoc]

I'm sorry, I meant "why you do.." believe that Ms. Roush is responsible....

(Yesterday I wrote that human rights aren't dependent on "geometry" when I meant "geology." Typos happen.)

As I said, there is no way that the woman in crisis, Sarah Saga is not to blame for her situation. I'm impressed that she was able to muster the courage to go to the Consulate.

I wonder whether our action in Irag gave her courage?

[hocndoc]

I asked above: I wonder whether the US's action in Iraq gave Sarah courage?

I think it's time to use some big diplomatic courier bags to smuggle the children out! (I grew up on Mission:Impossible and Man from U.N.C.L.E., etc.)