Y Chromosomes Rewrite British History

Nature ^ | 6-19-2003 | Hannah Hoag

[blam]

[Right Wing Professor]

That's a huge leap, since there is no evidence that the Celts ever spoke anything but an I-E language.

Indeed: what is far more likely is that while the Celts dominated the British Isles culturally, they did not displace the existing population, particularly in Ireland.

[blam]

If You look at the map in post 41, notice the Tocharians (Caucasian) in Central China. The Mummies found in the Chinese desert are the descendents of the Tocharians, Cherchen Man. I suspect The descendents of the Tocharians are also the Brahmins of India.

Secrets of Cherchen Man

It's amazing when you consider the Kennewick Man is (majority) Ainu.

[blam]

"they did not displace the existing population, particularly in Ireland."

Apparently not in England either.

9,000 year old Cheddar Man still has relatives living there.

[Cool Guy]

suspect The descendents of the Tocharians are also the Brahmins of India.

I don't think they ventured that far east. I suspect they lived around the Caspian sea for a while before they moved either through Iran or Afganistan over to where they are now. Well the above opinion was formed with very little information, so I could be wrong.

[Question_Assumptions]

None of those ideas particularly surprise me. The Macedonians were Celts so Anatolia isn't that much of a stretch. The Anatolia theory seems quite possible as well. Just remember that there were large non-IE populations in Anatolia as recorded in Hittite records.

[Question_Assumptions]

Just remember that the Ainu are genetically Asian. They have Caucasan morphology but their genes suggest parallel development and not any ancestory. There are some good books out there on human genetic relationships including Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza's The History and Geography of Human Genes and Genes, Peoples, and Language if you are interested in human migrations.

[blam]

"Wasn't there another article a couple of weeks ago saying just the opposite: that Y chromosomes show that the population of England had been almost entirely displaced at the time of the Anglo-Saxon invasions?"

Don't remember but Cool Guy turned me on to this:

Europe's 10 Founding 'Fathers'

[aristeides]

Is Kennewick man also genetically Asian, like the Ainu?

[Swordmaker]

The Y chromosomes of men from Wales and Ireland resemble those of the Basques. Some believe that the Basques, from the border of France and Spain, are the original Europeans.

Any bets on the subject of Ray Capt's next opus?

Heck, it might even be 36 pages of scholarship (including covers).

How DID the Hebrew tribes get to the Basque area without leaving their genes anywhere in between???

36 pages? That many? Don't forget the pages and pages of citations to his own books... and his bio... don't forget his bio-fiction-ography.

PS I like your new Smiledon...

[Scenic Sounds]

Geneology bump. This is fascinating. In fact, it's kind of a plus for my tribe (Celts).

[Amelia]

Well, now I'm a bit disappointed that I don't have a Y-chromosome to get tested.

How will I ever know where I came from?

[Scenic Sounds]

Maybe we should be gathering DNA from those of our parents and grandparents who are still alive. ;-)

[blam]

The Beauty Of Loulan

This is the reconstructed face of one of the 4,000 year old Tocharian mummies found in the China desert. Her Image has been adopted by the Ughars as the mother of their country and appears on their currency, etc.

[blam]

"There are some good books out there on human genetic relationships including Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza's The History and Geography of Human Genes and Genes, Peoples, and Language if you are interested in human migrations."

Thanks, sounds interesting, I'll look into them. (it just went on to my 'to do' list)

[blam]

"Is Kennewick man also genetically Asian, like the Ainu?"

Professor Christy Turner of Arizona State University has done a wonderful dental study of various races. James Chatters (The archaeologist who did the Kennewick Man work) in his book Ancient Encounters, about Kennnewick man, consulted Christy Turner and it was determined that Kennewick Man had Caucasian 'type' teeth as did Spirit Cave Man, the 9,400 year old mummy (The oldest mummy in the Americas) Buhl Woman and Prince Of Wales Island Man. Meaning that they were not typical of Asian teeth.

This may interest you also, Arlington Springs woman, 13,000 year old human skeleton found on California island. (The oldest human skeleton ever found in the Americas)

[Amelia]

Maybe we should be gathering DNA from those of our parents and grandparents who are still alive. ;-)

Sounds like a good idea....now to figure out how to weasel it out of them... ;-)

[Scenic Sounds]

Sounds like a good idea....now to figure out how to weasel it out of them... ;-)

ROFL. I can see how that might be a bit tricky.

Maybe you could steal their toothbrushes. ;-)

[blam]

"that Kennewick Man had Caucasian 'type' teeth "

Pardon me, I need to correct the above statement. Kennewick man had Sundadonty type teeth as explained by Christy Turner below:

"Sundadonty is named after the Sunda shelf, an area in Indonesian waters which was exposed during the ice age. This shelf was a massive exposed land mass during the Pleistocene, stretching hundreds of miles southeast from the current shores of Asia. The Sundadont dental group includes those who have a small shovel on the lingual side of their incisors; in other words, they have a small indentation near the tongue on their front teeth. In addition, Sundadonts have a double-rooted upper first pre-molar, a triple-rooted upper second molar, and double-rooted first and second lower-molars. Sundadont dental structure is characteristic of southeastern Asia and southern China.

Sinodonts have deep shovels on their incisors, a single-rooted upper first pre-molar, a double-rooted upper second molar, a triple-rooted lower first molar, and a single-rooted lower second molar. Turner proposed that the Northern Chinese and Siberian dental structure, Sinodonty, evolved rom Sundadonty around 18,000 B.C. He based this estimate on the time it would take for the two present forms to evolve from a common ancestry.

The dental structure of Native Americans appears to be a variation of Sinodonty- it has almost exactly the same characteristics. Turner proposed that to account for the current differences in dental structure, the American population would have had to split from the main Sinodont body around 12,000 B.C."

[plusone]

Are you familiar with the research of Barry Fell?