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Those who are hoping for the worst in Iraq
San Diego Union Tribune ^ | 7/4/2003 | Joseph Perkins

Posted on 07/04/2003 10:23:05 AM PDT by dalereed

Edited on 07/04/2003 12:02:29 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

During a vice presidential visit to San Diego in 1970, the late Spiro Agnew famously remarked, "In the United States today, we have more than our share of the nattering nabobs of negativism."

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, who served alongside Agnew in the Nixon administration, might be inclined to agree with his one-time colleague. Especially after his Pentagon press briefing this week.

"Can you remind us again why this is not a quagmire?" asked one wag. "And can you tell us why you're so reluctant to say that what's going on in Iraq now is a guerrilla war?"

A fellow wag followed up. Could it be that Secretary Rumsfeld, that Gen. Richard Meyers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, are loath to concede that Iraq has disintegrated into a guerrilla war because it "begins to bring to mind the last one that the United States had, which was Vietnam?"

"Which," the wag added, sarcastically, "I think most people can agree was not a resounding success."

A lay observer might conclude from the line of questioning that more than a few members of the media are almost hopeful that the transformation of Iraq into a peaceful democracy goes badly. That they are still bummed that the United States was able to turn Saddam Hussein out of power in less than a month and with far fewer casualties than much of the anti-war media predicted.

That they derive some perverse consolation in the ludicrous notion that the United States suddenly finds itself facing a guerrilla war in Iraq; a quagmire of Vietnam proportions.

Rumsfeld suffered the anti-war wags more gladly than they deserved.

He explained that there is no organized insurgency in Iraq; that the sporadic attacks against American troops are being carried out by disparate groups with different agendas. That includes looters, "who take advantage of opportunities that exist from time to time," according to Rumsfeld, as well criminals who were freed from Iraqi prisons, "tens of thousands" put out on the street.

There also are the remnants of Saddam's regime, said the defense secretary. Including "the Baathists, the Fedayeen Saddam, some army people, some Special Republican Guard, some SSO (Special Security Organization) people."

Then there are foreign infiltrators, terrorist types from other countries who crossed the Syrian border into Iraq, as well as Iranian-backed Shiites.

Day by day, U.S. forces root out those elements. Like the raid this past weekend, Operation Desert Scorpion, which, according to Meyers, resulted in the detention of more than 1,300 individuals, and confiscation of 500 AK-47s, more than 200 hand grenades and 100 rocket-propelled grenades.

Such raids will continue, assured Rumsfeld and Meyers, until Iraq is secure and safe.

As to the suggestion that Iraq has transmogrified into a latter-day Vietnam for the United States, Rumsfeld dismissed the cockeyed notion. "It's a different time," he said. "It's a different era. It's a different place."

Indeed, for the United States, the Vietnam War lasted the better part of nine years. More than 8.5 million Americans served in that war, some 58,193 of whom lost their lives.

U.S. forces have been in Iraq less than four months. Fewer than a quarter-million were needed to rout Saddam's army. And the U.S. military has suffered nearly 58,000 fewer deaths than in Vietnam.

Of course, the United States will be in Iraq for some time to come. President Bush acknowledged that this week when he said that the rebuilding of post-war Iraq, the orderly and peaceful transition from Saddam's despotic regime to Western-style democracy will be a "massive and long-term undertaking."

And, yes, there will be more U.S. casualties in Iraq, more deaths. That is regrettable. But it is absurd for anyone to even suggest that the numbers of casualties, of deaths, will be remotely close to the levels seen during the Vietnam War.

Though Iraq news coverage has been relentlessly negative in recent weeks, the American public remains positive.

Nearly six of 10 still think the situation in Iraq was worth going to war over, according to the latest Gallup Poll for CNN and USA Today. And nearly seven of 10 think it is worth having U.S. troops there now.

"There will be no return to tyranny in Iraq," President Bush said this week, "and those who threaten the order and stability of that country will face ruin just as surely as the regime they once served."

The American people apparently share the commander in chief's resolve.

Perkins can be reached via e-mail at .

Copyright 2003 Union-Tribune Publishing Co.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: bushdoctrineunfold; iraq; rebuildingiraq; warlist; worst
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To: Burkeman1
Thank you for the thoughtful post.
41 posted on 07/04/2003 11:15:27 PM PDT by MEG33
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To: Burkeman1
I don't think your new Iraqi sociopolitical model made it past the "never considered it's so ludicrous" evaluation stage.

Your a feudal kind of guy.

42 posted on 07/04/2003 11:22:06 PM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: dalereed
Do you want someone to come over and click on the link for you?
43 posted on 07/04/2003 11:27:00 PM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: ArneFufkin
If I may hazard my interpretation...He was saying if we retreat into enclaves and turn Iraq over to warlords,etc,Iraq wouldn't have dependable electricity in 5 years.
44 posted on 07/04/2003 11:30:36 PM PDT by MEG33
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To: MEG33
You see some value in that program? Sacrificing Iraqis newly liberated from the Hell of the Husseins to a feudal system of regional Warlords and Third World poverty?

That's obscene.

45 posted on 07/04/2003 11:35:56 PM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: ArneFufkin
After the 78 day bombing capmpaign in Kosovo and Serbia under Clinton the electricity in Kosovo has never been fully repaired and is intermittent. Many basic public services are not what they had been since the bombing. This is a direct result of Clintonian occupation policy that leaves de facto control of the country to local crime and war lords. Bush may chose to follow the same path in Iraq.
46 posted on 07/04/2003 11:36:58 PM PDT by Burkeman1
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To: Burkeman1
Burkeman, you're a bright guy and you've been consistent in your philosophy around this campaign .... but .... what in the world would be achieved if Iraq was reformed into the regional feudal governance you've presented?

How are American interests bolstered by that outcome? Not to mention the Iraqis who will now be in terror of "Warlords" and their thuggery.

You think "Warlords" are going to let private entrepreneurs run the oil program while they slaughter oxen and drink goats milk?

47 posted on 07/04/2003 11:42:23 PM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: MEG33
Maybe- maybe not. But basic public services are hard to keep up when there is no reliable or strong national government and sections of the Baghdad are ruled by different gangs and crime bosses. This is one way it could go for Iraq if Bush tires of casualties in Iraq. It "worked" for Clinton. I am not saying it is moral. I am just saying it is a proven way to occupy Iraq without casualties and thus avoid domestic political fallout.
48 posted on 07/04/2003 11:46:24 PM PDT by Burkeman1
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To: ArneFufkin
See my #48 to MEG33.
49 posted on 07/04/2003 11:47:50 PM PDT by Burkeman1
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To: Burkeman1
I feel terrible about one death or one wounded.If we retreat from our mission because of lack of will,I will have to rethink going in the first place.We may need to adjust and fine tune but retreat into guarded enclaves is not going to get the job done.The media stirs up all this gloom and doom!
50 posted on 07/04/2003 11:56:20 PM PDT by MEG33
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To: MEG33
I personally don't think Bush will persue the "Clinton model" of occupation in Iraq. Afghanistan is looking like it on one level but Bush is still trying at least. Clinton never even tried in Kosovo. But politicians are politicians and Bush has an election coming up. And I don't think he planned that well for a postwar Iraq government. It could be tempting to make deals with thugs for "peace" while retreating into rural enclaves.
51 posted on 07/05/2003 12:01:21 AM PDT by Burkeman1
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To: Burkeman1
There are NO warlords in Iraq with the Baath psychos killed off. This isn't Ethiopia, Afghanistan or Mongolia. This is a highly developed country blessed with oil, agricultural and mineral resources and a strategic port. Iraq can flourish economically, politically and socially.

The Kurds are game. The Shiites are game. The Sunnis are game. A thousand terrorists need to be killed. They will be killed.

This is part of our ongoing war against terror. This is a strategic springboard. You don't agree, that's fine. It's a legitimate issue.

But don't misunderstand the resolve and commitment of our President, military and economic managers to make Iraq a stable bulwark against the Terror Network forever more. This is a checkpoint on the mission.

And, as you and I discussed way back last fall (My December 15 launch date was off a bit), North Korea is going to change or we'll change them. This Hair Club for Men reject fool is threatening our citizens with nuclear attack.

Iraq. Iran. North Korea. That's the life center of the international terror network. They go down, every other Muslim despot starts to revisit their M.O.

If we're lucky, Americans don't die by the tens of thousands in chemical, biological or nuclear attack on our shore again and again. That's the REAL GOAL here, we don't give a crap about Mullahs and Omans and Sheiks and Muftis. We care about Americans. Every thing Bush is making happen is to create a safer world for American citizens in our cities and towns. If the Iraqi people win, if the Iranian people win, the Afghani people win and North Korean people win .... well, that's advantageous for our security and that's just a WIN WIN gumbdrop rainbow outcome.

We're operating at the source of the cancer spread. It's ugly work, it's dangerous and soldiers will die in pursuit of the mission. This is for the survival and prosperous well-being of 270 million of us, so they are not dying in vain.

52 posted on 07/05/2003 12:07:03 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: Burkeman1
The planning for reconstruction and pacification was lacking. I read in some rag we went 2 weeks early and won too quickly to get a handle on it.No one said this would be easy.I don't "approve" lightly the risk of someone else's life.I had misgivings and finally did support invading Iraq.I think if we stay the course it will pay off on many fronts.
53 posted on 07/05/2003 12:07:59 AM PDT by MEG33
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To: ArneFufkin; Burkeman1
Arne expressed it better!
54 posted on 07/05/2003 12:10:19 AM PDT by MEG33
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To: ArneFufkin
Well Iraq is different from Kosovo. There are no ready made "warlords" in Iraq to deal with as there were in Kosovo. As for "crimelords" I don't know enough about Iraq as a culture to even guess if there was organized crime. So the "Clinton model" of Kosovo might not even be available to Bush in Iraq. But I suspect local thugs could be found and oral agreements and understandings made rather quickly if need be (ie- you keep any radicals under control by whatever means and leave the pipelines alone and you can do whatever you want in your area of control.)

You place a lot of trust in "planners" and "experts" for our occupation in Iraq to be sucessful. I don't share your optimism in such big government notions- especially in a Islamic hell hole like Iraq.

55 posted on 07/05/2003 12:18:21 AM PDT by Burkeman1
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To: MEG33
MEG, if there is a peace accord somehow between Israel and the Palestinian people, this campaign will have created the opening. With the Iraqi regime gone, Syria no longer gets smuggled UN oil. The Iranian clerics are now fighting for their lives. Syria has no cash. Iran has no free hand to organize and protect the Lebanese and Palestinian based killers. They can't pay the Hizbollah creeps. If Iran and Syria can't function, North Korea and China don't have customers for their missiles, guns and ordinance.

So, Iraq was the fulcrum of Muslim pride and money and it all went to weaponry and intrigue. Cruel but strong psycho daddy's gone now, and the evil Islamist children are in disarray. The Roadmap to Peace has an opening of hope.

56 posted on 07/05/2003 12:19:29 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: Burkeman1
Afghanistan is a hellhole. Iraq was the most powerful nation-state in the Arab World. It will return to that status, but it will be run by human beings. They'll struggle at first, Saddam had no economy absent criminal enterprise under the nose of U.N. dipsticks.

Iraq has the second or third largest oil reserves in the World. It has a well constructed pipeline delivery system. It has a world class oil terminal and a deep water port. It has fertile fields, a strong transportation infrastructure, mineral potential, adequate hospital assets and a hungry and hopeful citizenry who were TERRORIZED by that bastard and his henchmen for 34 years. 34 years in a Gulag more insular that Stalins Soviet Union. Give them a chance to emerge from their life view of imminent death.

Iraq and Iran are NOT Saudi Arabia or the Sudan. They are crouching economic tigers in that region absent dictators and genocide freaks. That's the key to driving the 8th Century murderers into the abyss.

57 posted on 07/05/2003 12:32:25 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: ArneFufkin
I realize the Arab Nationalistic pride was invested in Saddam.I am less of an optimist than you,though my hope is there.Money always has away of getting to the thugs.They were caught carting gold bars out of Iraq.How many got through and how much is now in diamonds?Arms merchants are worldwide.I do think there is more hope for peace for Israel but it will be bumpy.Some dictator is always wanting arms and will let his country starve to buy them.
58 posted on 07/05/2003 12:35:05 AM PDT by MEG33
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To: dalereed
That they derive some perverse consolation in the ludicrous notion that the United States suddenly finds itself facing a guerrilla war in Iraq; a quagmire of Vietnam proportions.

There are very few...very few media pukes out there today that would be able to discuss any of the events or timeline of the Vietnam war. They have no clue of what went on and how much it differed from anything we did...and are doing...in Iraq. No clue whatsoever of the history of the country whose teet they suckle at and whose sons and daughters gave their all so that these idiots might continue their "nattering".

59 posted on 07/05/2003 12:41:09 AM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (®)
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To: ArneFufkin
You sound hopeful. I am not. Iraq didn't even begin to approach the level of insularity that the Soviet Union did under Stalin. That, I will disagree with. Sadaam didn't even control his borders that well! But Iraq has been isolated and artificially stript of it's various cultures. I suspect they will all seek to be "authentic" again (as many Russians are attempting now with the return to Orthodox Christianity). And that won't mean being "western". I actually hope you are right. But I sadly suspect that I am.
60 posted on 07/05/2003 12:41:29 AM PDT by Burkeman1
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