A Final Push for the Bedeviled, Beloved Osprey

The New York Times ^ | 07/06/03 | LESLIE WAYNE

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

/1/ Can it land safely if it loses both engines?

Like any aircraft that loses all power, a safe landing will depend on the several factors: aircrew performance, weather and flight envelope. Will the aircrew be trained to attempt a landing if in the unlikely event that both engines are lost in the same flight hour; the probability of which is 1x10(-10)? Yes.

Now some questions for you, oh nattering nabob of negativity. Can a CH-53E land safely if it loses all three engines and its tail rotor? Can a CH-53D land safely if it loses both engines and its tail rotor? Can a CH-46E land safely if it loses both engines and its tail rotor? Can a UH-1N land safely if it loses both engines and its tail rotor? Can a AH-1W land safely if it loses both engines and its tail rotor? Can a VH-3 land safely if it loses both engines and a tail rotor? Can a VH-60 land safely if it loses both engines and its tail rotor? What are the MTBF figures for powerplant failures in the above helicopters? What is the MTBF figure for the powerplant in the Osprey?

/2/ If due to mechanical failure or battle damage, the rotors cannot convert from forward to overhead, can it land safely?

Once again you ask the wrong question. The question you should have asked is can the Osprey attempt to land if the engine nacelles cannot be tilted? The answer to that question is yes. The design of the proprotors, which has been confirmed in testing, is such that they will broomstraw when striking a solid object. The proprotors do not shatter. Incidentally, in the ~8,000 hours of flight testing there has never been a single failure of the engine nacelle tilt mechanism.

/3/ How can it fire weapons forward for protection, now that the nose gun has been removed from consideration as too heavy?

The nose gun has not been removed. The contract for the GDAS GAU 19/A was awarded in the first quarter of 2001. All production MV-22s and CV-22s will be equipped with the gatling gun.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

The CATO report is full of mistakes, Penas' lie about VRS and the capabilities of the V-22 on page one is only the beginning of them, which is exactly why you parrot it. Rejecting something you have admitted knowing little to nothing about is proof of your ignorance. Now go cry to the Adminmoderator and falsely claim that you are being personally attacked again, crybaby. Funny how those people selectively coddle the dishonest hypocrites and phonies on this forum.

By the way does your heart go out to all the victims of the 100+ Blackhawk crashes? I seriously doubt it.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

What was your sons' first name?

How do you feel about the parents of those Marines flying around in 40 year old helicopters that are known in the FMF as Boeing Body Bags? How do you feel about the actions that night of Major John Brow? Do you wish that he had been piloting one of the other three Ospreys' that were on the same flight as Nighthawk 72 instead of the one your son was on?

[AGreatPer]

Thank you for sharing. I read your comments the other night and it has been bugging me ever since.

I have the Marines going after my 17 yo son right now.

I am so sorry about your son but am at a loss for words. No words can make up for that.

I will use your words to direct my son's activity and life in a different direction.

I have been here for awhile. But as far as I am concerned, your words are the most important ones I have ever read. I can't thank you enough.

[marinemomof1]

I am indeed the person I say I am...and how dare you? What kind of disgusting human being would send a grieving mother a picture of the mangled plane where the charred remains of her precious child lay for five days while the site was investigated? It just shows how truly desperate you are. You should be ashamed of yourself. I don't have to defend one thing to you - I live with the hell that the Osprey leaves in its wake every single day of my life. I owe you nothing, as I have already paid the heaviest price. None of you who push this piece of crap could ever repay me, or the other families who have had to pay so dearly themselves, so those like you can fill their pockets with the spoils that come from shoving the Osprey Death Program down the throats of anyone who will listen. You aren't a general by any chance are you? Otherwise, you must own stock in the program.

Moreover, how dare you smear the name of someone who is dead and not able to give his side of what happened? It is glaringly obvious that you were not sitting next to him, so you really have no first hand knowledge of what happened in the aircraft that night. But, let's pretend Maj. Brow did make a mistake - perhaps a horrible error in judgement that caused the April crash. How do you explain the other crashes? I suppose they were Maj. Brow's fault too. He was "The Best of the Best", but not really that good? I suppose all those pilots had no idea what they were doing - that darn plane is just too complicated for their simple minds??? It seems that anyone who was within shouting distance had something to do with the April crash. No way could it be that the aircraft itself was at fault because it is a piece of junk. If the Osprey is so wonderful, why are officers having to run around covering up for the mechanical issues? Why are they "adjusting" the true test results? In another article I hold in my hand, it discusses the very topic of safety and potential cover up. It states that "The V-22 that crashed last April in Arizona, killing all 19 Marines on board, makes that all too clear. That craft had spent only 135 hours in the air since the Marines took delivery of it three months earlier. Yet it had required 600 repairs while the Marines had it...one repair for every 15 minutes it was flying." Since you think so highly of this piece of trash, I suggest you sign yourself - better yet, YOUR child, up as test pilot, passenger and then cadaver...I dare you. Put your life where your mouth is.

If you are calling yourself a Marine, you should hang up your uniform as your very essence disgraces the title. Instead of being vindictive and offensive, you should be thanking me on your knees for giving up a young man who was so dedicated to his country that he gave his life training to fight for the very freedom that allows you to be hateful to his grieving family and not be punished for it. My son, and the others who were sacrificed with him were not drones. They were young men who had their whole lives ahead of them until someone like you stole it away. How you live with yourself is a mystery to me. It has been my belief that a Marine watches out for his Brothers, he does not lead them to slaughter. Thank God one Marine had the courage to say "enough is enough" and revealed what was really going on with the program. He is a hero to us, and he personifies Semper Fidelis. His courage is beyond measure. Again, if you are a Marine you must remember what that is, because it is obvious you have lost it somewhere along the way. He is living proof that not all are excited to get that aircraft going.

As for the report, do your homework, just like I had to do when I chose to learn all I could about my son's death. I will correct one part of my statement, however. According to the report I hold in my lap, the lead aircraft skidded 330 feet. I did not say it exploded...I said "Thank God it did not explode". I have had the great honor and privilege to speak with wives/mothers of Marines who were on the lead aircraft. What they say coincides with the report...so once again, I do not care what someone who was not there has to say. Some of these kids suffer still from what happened that night. You don't watch your Brothers burn to death, look death in the eye yourself, , and not have it affect you. I think the words spoken by a Commanding Officer to a Marine mom I know sums it all up perfectly..."The MV-22 Osprey is a black mark on the history of the Marine Corps." A simple statement to be sure, but more truthful than anything else I have heard. I could not have said it better myself.

Now...go away...and let me do what I have to do...that being, protect others from the likes of you. If I save one family from having to senselessly and needlessly visit the graveyard to be with their dead child, then I have accomplished something with what is left of my life.

And to those of you who fight the fight...I cannot thank you enough. Your efforts are well noted. I have no doubt you will stand before these Marines one day in heaven, and you will do it with honor, which is more than I can say for some. Carry on!

[Missmyson]

Do you have children? God bless them if you do!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Brow was doing what he was instructed to do - however, do you have a clue who the December crash pilot was? Why don't you pick on him, or was he your good ole buddy?

[Bobsat]

BTW, that picture is NOT one of Major General Smedley D. Butler, USMC (Ret.), who was short, slight of build, and died in 1940.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

Quit emoting and try being objective. The photograph, which is in the public domain for anyone to see, proved that you were not being truthful. Nighthawk 71 did not roll 450 feet and end up in a ravine.

You aren't a general by any chance are you? Otherwise, you must own stock in the program.

No to both questions. Not affiliated with the program in any way whatsoever. Are you affiliated with or own stock in United Technologies?

But, let's pretend Maj. Brow did make a mistake - perhaps a horrible error in judgement that caused the April crash. How do you explain the other crashes? I suppose they were Maj. Brow's fault too. He was "The Best of the Best", but not really that good?

There's no pretending about it. Brow violated NATOPS procedures and caused the deaths of 18 other Marines besides himself. Pilot error was the cause of the Marana crash and that's a fact. Brow was a former KC-130 pilot, not a rotorhead and had limited experience in rotary winged aircraft, desribing him as the best of the best is simply not true. The actions of the aircrew in the New River crash contributed to the accident. Other Ospreys experienced hydraulic failures and safely landed. Sweaney and Murphy violated NATOPS and continued to fly an aircraft they were trained to immediately land if the FCS did not reset. One of them continued to press the FCS reset inducing further anomalies to the FCS. The crash at Quantico in 1992 was due to a design flaw which resulted in an engine fire. However, there is a high probability that the aircrew exceeded airspeed limits on the flight from Florida which may have accelerated the pooling of flammable materials in the intake. The Delaware crash was caused by a miswired gyro.

In another article I hold in my hand, it discusses the very topic of safety and potential cover up.

Once again I ask you to provide me the documented source of that report.

Yet it had required 600 repairs while the Marines had it...one repair for every 15 minutes it was flying."

Helicopters require ~16 hours of maintenance for every hour of flight. I suggest you look at the VIDS MAF board in any helicopter squadron production control office as well as the repair history of any military helicopter. That number of repairs is not unusual particularly for the aircraft in question. EMD and LRIP aircraft traditionally require a number of repairs, most of which are minor.

I think the words spoken by a Commanding Officer to a Marine mom I know sums it all up perfectly..."The MV-22 Osprey is a black mark on the history of the Marine Corps."

Please provide us with the name of that officer.

Put your life where your mouth is.

I'd glady fly aboard an Osprey before I'd fly on a CH-46.

It has been my belief that a Marine watches out for his Brothers, he does not lead them to slaughter.

The actions of John Brow killed your son. If you had read the data from the FDR and the after accident report you'd know that. It wouldn't mave mattered what rotary winged aircraft was being flown that night. If Brow had flown any of them in the same manner as he did the Osprey your son and 18 other Marines would still be dead. That's an indisputable fact.

I did not say it exploded...

I didn't say you did.

You don't watch your Brothers burn to death, look death in the eye yourself, , and not have it affect you.

I've helped clean up the crashes of four EA-6Bs with the loss of 11 pilots/ecmos including pulling charred body parts out of trees and swamps. I've seen the effects of a pilot who executed a command ejection while inverted and sent three aviators downward into a pine tree forest. I've seen the decapitated head of an ecmo still strapped into its flight helmet at ALF Coupeville on Whidbey Island. I witnessed a Marine recruit kill himself at the pistol range at Edson Range, Camp Pendleton. I witnessed a Marine recruit drown in the pool at MCRD San Diego. I saw a drunk Marine and a drunk sailor get hit by a train while fighting on the railroad tracks outside MCAS Iwakuni in Japan. So save me the holier than thou sanctimony lady because you haven't seen anything that I haven't.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

Good to see you're paying attention for a change Bobbie. The intent of the question to Travis McGee was to see if he was paying attention and could provide some answers, which he has been unable or unwilling to do. How many flights have you taken in a CH-46 because on the aircraft I've been on I never saw you onboard? Why didn't that MH-53 that crashed near Sigonella yesterday autorotate? You've claimed that all helicopters can successfully autorotate. Once again you've been proven wrong.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

Brow was doing what he was instructed to do

Incorrect. Brow violated both NATOPS and his training during that flight. I suggest you read the after accident report and the FDR data which proves that Brow screwed up and killed 18 other Marines and himself.

however, do you have a clue who the December crash pilot was? Why don't you pick on him, or was he your good ole buddy?

Sure do. Keith M. Sweaney and Michael L. Murphy were the pilots of the mishap aircraft which crashed near New River in December of 2000. If you've paid attention to all the Osprey threads on this forum you'd know that I've repeatedly pointed out that their mistakes in attempting to reset the FCS and not immediately landing when the FCS failed to reset, as they were trained and the NATOPS instructs, were contributing factors to the crash. Sweaney and Murphy were both experienced pilots but they made mistakes that cost them and two other Marines their lives. Ever hear the saying "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old, bold pilots"? Are you related in any way to John Brow?

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

Please respond to the questions posed to you in post 61.

[Poohbah]

While the more techincal things often go over my head, there are some things I understand very clearly. I know that the slightest mistake kills, and even the "best of the best" cannot keep it in the air.

In this respect, it is no different from the CH-46 Sea Knight or the CH-53E Super Stallion. Violation of the NATOPS manual or the maintenance publications is going to cause a fatal crash.

On April 8, 2000, 19 Marines were killed, many of them just kids. One of those Marines on board that night was my son.

Please accept my condolences on your loss.

It is just a matter of time before another goes down, taking someone else's kids to their graves.

Again, the same can be said of the current tactical lift aircraft used by the Marine Corps. Should we dispense with the concepts of vertical envelopment and operational maneuver from the sea and go back to one-dimensional beach assaults?

The powers that be don't care about these young Marines who have to fly in Ospreys, or the families left behind in agonizing grief when they die. Why should they care? It's not their loved ones being forced to board this death trap. As it has proven all too well, when it crashes, there is no hope for survival.

Look at the survival statistics for a Sea Knight or a Super Stallion. They are just as lethal in a crash--the presumption is that all aboard will perish, and any survivors are treated as God's grace.

While those who push for the Osprey sit around their holiday tables, or share in various family celebrations, we, the victims of their greed,

I have no financial interest in the Osprey; I served eight years in Marine Corps aviation, and I know what a deathtrap the Sea Knight has become. Thank you for your slander.

I wish that when Col. Schultz shares in his next family celebration that he is aware of those of us whose lives are left shattered. If he would not put his child on an MV-22 Osprey and send that child through the same maneuvers that my son and the others went through, then he should never put someone else's child in that same danger.

OK, so Col. Schulz should dragoon his children into the Marine Corps, eh?

My son did not sign up with the Corps to be dead in 14 months.

Nobody does. Unfortunately, some always do.

When the recruiter came to my house to talk to me about my son going to boot camp early, I voiced to him my concerns about my son's safety.

He said, "Ma'am, we would never put your son in harms way".

Excuse me...this is where I must hoist the "Bravo Sierra" flags.

My recruiter sat all of us down and made it 100% crystal-clear that we could be called to combat duty at any time, that even "routine peacetime training" had its dangers, and that the USMC was NOT the Boy Scouts.

[VOA]

bump

[Bobsat]

The intent of the question to Travis McGee was to see if he was paying attention....

Sure it was....

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

Try answering the questions that are posed to you like why didn't that MH-53 that crashed near Sigonella autorotate. You won't because you can't answer the questions posed to you. You've never been able to and you never will be able to. All you can do is post lies and parrot "experts" who have been exposed as frauds and then cry like a little girl to your friendly admin moderator claiming that you're being personally attacked when you get exposed as an illiterate fraud. Yet you find no problem in personally attacking other people. Pot, kettle, black.

Spend some time on the ramp at New River around an HMM or on the flightdeck of an LHA or LHD and listen to the mechs informally referring to the aft rotor on a CH-46 as a tail rotor. I seriously doubt you've ever spent a single day in uniform, despite your claim, let alone anywhere near any type of aircraft.

[Bobsat]

You apparently don't realize that your constant barrages of off-topic questions simply aren't relevant to the V-22 discussion. What they do accomplish is to make any worthwhile discussion of the merits of the V-22 impossible by obscuring it with irrelevant minutae, then attacking posters for not answering your questions.

I take it back. Maybe you do realize what your barrages accomplish.

In any event, you have your opinion of the V-22 and I have mine. Just don't forget that my opinion is just as irrelevant as yours....

[marinemomof1]

Gentlemen...

Thank you so much for the validation of everything I have to say. If I had not spoken the truth, if I had not hit a nerve, then you would not feel the need to attack me so viciously. I am just a mom...that's all, but you have come after me like pirhana. That's ok though. I am not offended. I am, after all, not just a mom, but the mom of a Marine, and he taught me well what that means, as I am sure you all have done with your moms.

Stop emoting? I'm a mom...I'm supposed to emote.

As for Mr. Schultz...I would say "Better his kid than mine", but it is too late for that. Now, all I can say is "If it's good enough for my kid, it is certainly good enough for his..and for him". Hop aboard mister, and enjoy the ride.

A recruiter who covered all the bases? Goody for you. We were not so fortunate. My son was just a kid, and if the recruiter had told him he was going to be used for an experiment and would not be coming home alive, body parts missing, he would not have gone. Use your head. While you speak so viciously, deep down inside there is a human part of you. Nobody would be that ignorant.

You are lining up just waiting to get on an Osprey? That's great. At least you have the option to make that decision. It lightens my heart to know that, because of you, a unsuspecting Marine's life is saved and their family has been spared the worst kind of pain. Just make sure that each day, you tell your family members how much you love them, because after you are gone, they will be devastated. I don't know anyone who was so glad of the sacrifice made by their loved one that they held a ticker tape parade.

And Smedly...how pathetic that you are so intimidated by a mom that you had to go and round up a few of your pals to come to this site and try to wreak havoc. It just goes to show the mentality of those who work so hard to push something so worthless. Oh..and in case you could not find the info...the lead aircraft landed 420 feet Northwest of the MA, then continued to skid 330 feet. Not only that, but if you had seen the video of the crash, you would know that there was a huge explosion with lots of fire. Nothing sitting that close would have survived. Obviously, that plane did not land there. Maybe you didn't hear me the first time...I got back what was LEFT of my son...because after the resulting fire, his body was destroyed. Stop emoting??? Whoever said that is an idiot. Unless you have walked in my shoes, unless you were out there that night, ready to do whatever you could to save one of these men, then I really don't care what you have to say. I have read, I have spoken to someone close to an investigation regarding the crash, I have asked lots of questions and sadly, had them answered...and I have buried my child. If you can't say the same, then what are you doing here?

Now, I take my leave from this group. I have other things to do that are more important than argue this issue with you all. Thank you again, for the validation. I offer it up to all those guys who died so needlessly.

Bobsat...you are awesome.

[Bobsat]

...I served eight years in Marine Corps aviation....

I can and do appreciate that. What was your job in Marine Corps aviation?

[Poohbah]

Aircraft maintenance administration and maintenance control. I wound seeing most of the paperwork generated by things like crashes (Airframes Bulltetins/Changes, Dynamic Component Bulletins/Changes, Powerplant Bulletins/Changes, and associated VIDS/MAFs).

The H-46 was getting too damn dangerous to stuff troops into starting 1989--we lost about one bird every three months to the same problem (main rotor blade separating from the main rotor hub in flight), for a 18 months. That's half a squadron right there.

In 'Nam, the CH-46 had this habit of falling apart in midair because of gross NATOPS violations by pilots.

BTW, the CH-53E Super Stallion had a FAR higher crash rate than the Osprey during its T&E and IOC phases. At one point, there was talk of just killing the entire program, because the Super Stud was "just too dangerous."

The CH-53E was (and is) an aircraft singularly unforgiving of sloppy maintenance practices and violations of its flight envelope (When the angle of bank hits 90 degrees, the lift kind of slides off of the rotor disc). I was a plank owner in HMH-466, and that squadron literally saved the CH-53E program. We had SNCOs who actually made sure that the work was done all the way instead of "close enough for gubmint work." We had pilots who flew the bird TO and not BEYOND its flight envelope.

Bottom line: the CO of VMMT-204 who ordered the paperwork fudged ought to be making big rocks into very small rocks for the next 20 years. We ought to NOT let KC-130 pilots transition into rotary-wing aircraft. We ought to expect that if the FCS computer doesn't reset, the pilots ought to LAND THE BLOODY THING as the NATOPS manual says.