CA: Dear cost of `cheap' labor for state - California can't ignore its enormous impact

Mercury News ^ | 7/8/03 | Dan Stein

[NormsRevenge]

There is no simple or single explanation for the kind of gaping budget deficit currently facing California. However, it would be naive in the extreme to ignore the impact of large-scale legal and illegal immigration on a $38.2 billion shortfall in this year's state budget.

[daviddennis]

Depends on who's doing the classification. The Welfare Mafia certainly seems to think of them as a distinct racial group.

I think you're making a similar error to what I see all the time on the left. You are adding up costs but not benefits. Surely my local auto repair shop benefits from having illegal labor, and I benefit when they fix my car cheaper than could otherwise be done.

What I am saying is that the pressures illegals put on the system are a golden opportunity to reduce its generosity and make it serve all people better. I don't think there's any question that our current educational system, our current street maintenance system, and most of the rest of what government does is horribly broken, and being sold to us at a premium price.

By using the overuse of services by illegals as justification, we can start trimming poorly run government services such as welfare and education, forcing them to spend within our means.

Is that not an objective which would be good for us?

D

[Nea Wood]

Your contention is that I should fed, cloth, educate and medicate everyone who breaks into my house. I don't think so.

Well put.

[SwankyC]

I say we should just annex all of Mexico and abolish the entire Mexican government. The liberals want to ignore the fact there is a border there, so why dont we?

[kellynla]

"Is that not an objective which would be good for us?" No!
The illegals that your buddy's auto repair is using are illegal and employing illegals is against the law. Now if you want to patronize a cheating illegal auto repair shop that is your business. Chances are if your buddy is using cheap labor, he is probably using cheap parts. And if you buy cheap you get cheap. And in the long run you will be paying more for cheap repair jobs. But for every illegal that is hired there is a legal resident out of a job. You are multiplying the problem. The reason illegals come to CA is because people like you patronize their employers and/or hire them. If I have to explain Econ 101 to you then I neither have the time nor the inclination. You want cheap labor move to Mexico and get your car fixed. Personally I want Americans working in America. I want Americans being paid a generous wage. A happy employee means good quality work. And I don't mind paying for quality work. You however are another breed who just wants cheap. Well cheap gets you cheap. And like the fella says you can pay me now or pay me later...And illegals cost me and all other tax paying citizens of this state B I L L I O N S so you can have a cheap auto repair. Your "argument" is inane and quite frankly boring. Have a good evening and please if you live in CA, move! We don't need any more people patronizing illegals and/or their illegal employers. It is just too expensive!

[budwiesest]

The inescapable conclusion is that California is being bankrupted by cheap immigrant labor.

No. The inescapable conclusion is that illegal immigrants contribute to our current state of fiscal insolvency. They are not alone in the cumulative effect upon a budget that is beholden to many siginificant wastes of tax dollars.

Vote getting by the doling out of dollars to various interest groups has been the democrat's greatest weapon. Republicans can only hope to mimic this, in order to 'swing' votes their way (see the national stage).

The problem isn't in the way the two major parties react to the demands of voters, but rather, the voters themselves, who have become all too comfortable with an existence that, when compared to the rest of the world's lazy, sit-on-your-ass-I-ain't-lifting-a-finger types, is one of the 'rich and famous' indeed.

[daviddennis]

For the sake of those who try to read and understand what you're writing, please break your responses into paragraphs. You can do that by simply typing in a blank line, like this:

You will find this is much easier to read than if you write your message in a single clump, as you did. It's nearly impossible to read your message as it stands.

That being said ...

Who is a better person:

(1) An American citizen, who has been subsisting on charity for his entire life. He's sitting on a street corner right now, begging for a buck or two to feed his Night Train habit;

(2) A illegal alien Mexican who works really hard washing people's cars, or fixing them, or emptying toilets, or whatever. Right now, he's emptying someone's office wastebasket. He's tired but satisfied that he's doing as good a job as he can.

To me, there's nothing inherently good or bad about being an American citizen or an illegal; what's important is what they accomplish. And my point to you is that illegals are not this abstract force that's draining our lives away; they are simply people who are trying to build a better life.

Economics 101 says that when you have more of a resource, prices go down. And when prices go down, more use can be made of the resource. So illegal aliens make the work of people less expensive, and they also make it possible to employ more people and therefore get more done. If you can hire two illegals instead of one citizen, you can get your jobs done faster.

Economics 101 says that when this happens, the overall pie gets bigger, because the work of more people is baking it. So it is not necessarily so that having illegal aliens around takes other's jobs. It's also possible that they free people from menial jobs and allow them to take more important responsibilities. The guy who was doing manual labor becomes supervisor of a bunch of illegals, for instance.

I think you make a lot of assumptions about illegals that are, simply, not true. Illegal aliens are not mindless pod-people. They can grow, just as we can. They can do a good job, just as we can. They are people, just like us. Can they do quality work fixing cars? Of course they can, if they're trained well enough.

If you could wave a wand and get rid of all the illegals, I think you'd find a much poorer economy and a lot of legal residents who'd be out of jobs.

D

[skeeter]

You are adding up costs but not benefits.

Thats already been done for us. The bottom line is illegal aliens cost each & every California household $1300 per year.

And thats one expensive tune up.

[daviddennis]

It would be, if I was convinced it was done honestly.

In fact, I strongly suspect it was done by people who had a vested interest in making the cost seem much higher than it actually is.

My position is that the current costs of government services are incredibly inflated and something should be done to get them down.

I would think that much is something we could all agree on.

Illegal aliens are not making our schools cost $7,500 per pupil and they are not making administratiors hire hopeless incompetents to do everything from teaching to property management. Illegal aliens have nothing to do with the stupid decision to build the new Belmont High School on a dangerous landfill, with cleanup costs in the tens of millions of dollars.

Of all the things we can reasonably complain about, I'd consider illegal aliens close to the bottom. You are all using them as scapegoats. I would bet you $100 that if you eliminated every illegal alien from this state tomorrow, all the problems you say are their fault would still be with us.

We have a huge budget deficit because Gray Davis couldn't say no to special interests who wanted their pay and budgets increased. That's not going to be affected in the slightest by illegals.

D

[Susannah]

Illegals are a big part of the issue. Employers will prefer them over legal residents no matter how cheap legals will work. How many illegals can go to a lawyer and sue their boss?

Illegals could be one way to eliminate unions, though. Has anyone seen a union carpenter, roofer,,,lately? When these illegals start doing the jobs of more and more union employees, then someone will pay attention. Unions = Democrats and most immigrants = Democrats.

Personally, I would rather pay more for services than add to the tax bills of every taxpayer including my children and their children.

[skeeter]

And you are understating the costs we do incur because of illegals. Emergency care units are burdened to the breaking point throughout the southwest because illegals cannot be turned away. Our schools are crowded with their children. A significant percentage of the new births in LA county are to illegal mothers, for which the taxpayer pick up the tab. over 25% of our prison population here in CA are made up of illegals - who bares the cost of their crimes? Who do you think pays the difference in auto insurance that illegals do not carry? Not to mention the wage pressures caused by an oversupply of cheap labor.

For what? So some selected employers can beef up their profit margin? Cheap yardwork?

You seem to believe we think illegals are the ONLY problem confronting us. Thats absurd. But reasonable people have to agree that they are one of the most serious.

[daviddennis]

If you can find a study showing this that's run by someone impartial (i.e. not an anti-illegal group or a government agency trying to get more money), I'd love to see it.

Until then, I will continue to believe illegals are scapegoats for problems that have existed long before they did, and that the positive and negative impacts of illegal immigration are likely to be a wash. When The Economist did a survey on illegal immigration, that's what they found, and I think they are a lot more likely to try and see both sides than the anti-immigration group that wrote this article.

I think many of you are unwilling and unable to be fair on this topic, because you dislike the cultural impact of illegals and don't look beyond that. I would really like to see a discussion which considers the fate of illegals as human beings and not as some inhuman entitites simply because they were born on the wrong side of the border.

D

[kellynla]

Read the article...and do your own research...I am not here to educate those who can't see the forest from the trees...those who come to this country illegally and do not pay taxes and get free education, medical care, food stamps and take jobs away from citizens are a drain on the economy and the state. Prison costs alone would decline enormously if incarcerated illegals were deported. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

[skeeter]

I would really like to see a discussion which considers the fate of illegals as human beings and not as some inhuman entitites simply because they were born on the wrong side of the border.

Sorry pal, your problem is with the LAW as it is ILLEGAL to be here without permission.

End of story.

[daviddennis]

Kelly: If you're not interested in helping educate people, there isn't much point in posting, is there?

Skeeter: In that case, I guess it's an optical illusion I see when I get on the freeway and see people driving at 80 and 90mph. Right now, being an illegal is like speeding - it's not legal, but it's tolerated.

You are advocating having it no longer being tolerated, and that's a defensible political position. As is mine, that illegals bring valuable services to this country and we'd be worse off without them.

The question is whether our laws should be changed, not changed or enforced. It's a question worth debating, but sadly I notice people are more interested in stridently reiterating their points than exploring the real issues. I try to seriously respond to your points, but I don't see anyone responding to mine.

Pity, since I think this is an interesting issue which deserves thoughtful debate.

D

[skeeter]

I try to seriously respond to your points, but I don't see anyone responding to mine.

I guess its all a matter of interpretation. Seemed to me your response included simply impugning the source of my information.

[daviddennis]

You didn't cite your source, so that's well within the framework of reasonable debate.

If the source is the article at the top of this thread, well, it was written by an anti-immigration group. Is it not reasonable to ask for a more impartial analysis? The article never mentioned positive impacts from illegal immigration, while covering negative ones in depth. I therefore came to the reasonable conclusion that it showed only one side of the story.

What about the argument that the high cost of government services is primarily because they are poorly run, not because they have a lot of users?

I would like to see problems solved - that we have exceptionally poor services. Again, you have not rebutted my point that if we didn't have illegals, we would STILL have crummy services that were just as poorly run as before.

Why do I believe this? Because we have had crummy services from long before illegals became a significant issue.

Illegals are the excuse, not the problem. The problem is exceptional stupidity and incompetence in our government. By focusing on illegals, we give our government's truly rotten management a free pass.

To me, that's completely unacceptable.

D

[hedgetrimmer]

Very good article. Thanks for posting.

[skeeter]

What about the argument that the high cost of government services is primarily because they are poorly run, not because they have a lot of users?

That they are poorly run is beyond debate. I do not have a problem with this part of your argument, but rather the apologetic tone you take towards the issue of illegal immigration.

Why are you not willing to object to ever increasing numbers of users flowing in illegally to use these services? Can you not agree that these services benefit as much as anyone from the flow of destitute illegals? The flow of illegals are their insurance they will NEVER go away, or even face reform.

BTW, dismissing a source as being 'anti-illegal immigration' doesn't cut grass as far as I'm concerned. Everyone knows this issue is radioactive & secure borders groups are carrying ALL the water for their side of the argument.

[daviddennis]

If illegals are overusing our services, why not simply deport any illegal that attempts to use them?

That seems fair to all parties.

I think a lot of my problem with the anti-illegal arguments is that I like seeing a growing, dynamic society, and immigration of all types is a major reason we have one today. I dread the drab stagnation that would occur if we sealed our borders and grew inward.

Remember, we are a nation of immigrants; we grew out of immigration, and historically, it's been an amazing positive for our nation.

I think of the anti-illegal movement as being closed-minded and self-interested. I feel admiration for people who have the guts and gumption to sneak into the United States in an effort to find a better life.

Anti-illegal groups are only going to mention facts that support their cause, just as pro-illegal groups will. I want to try and figure out this issue from an impartial, "in the middle" perspective, and I think it's very unfortunate such a thing doesn't seem to exist.

I want to be fair to all sides of this issue, and I listen to the arguments I hear in discussions like this one, and I don't think they are fair.

Hope that helps understanding.

D