Martin Luther special on PBS

Those are just warnings to examine yourself and make sure you are truly saved.

You posted that Scripture about sinning leading to damnation and I have to say, if your odd interpretation of that is correct, then not one Christian is saved because we all sin willfully.

"No doubt many Catholics would have said what Luther did as well. Yet you act like it is a novel statement."

You have to quote some official Catholic source from Luther's day in order to make this assertion worthy. Otherwise, it's just an opinion with no substance. Catholic doctrine was, and always has been, that unrepentent sin leads to eternal death.

"The fact is, Calvin's Geneva was a haven for Jews fleeing Catholic Europe. It should make you wonder how that rigid man's city could become a haven for unbelievers."

The fact is, that Spain was the largest haven for Jews for decades. But when the Jews who refused to convert were expelled by the King of Spain because he feared sedition and infiltration after 600 years of religious oppression by Muslims, the Pope in Rome was awaiting the expelled Jews with open arms and loving heart. The Jews arrived in Rome in the tens of thousands. Meanwhile, Luther was writing his deadly volumes about his hatred for Jews.

First of all. you must be on some kind of drug if you think that Roman Catholicism is "Orthodox"...It isnt.

The Pope was recognized as the first among equals from the earliest of times. If you don't want to believe me, then read St. Gregory the Great, one of YOUR Popes, and considered a saint in our Church, because he WAS Orthodox.

He also agreed with the Orthodox position on the Filioque, to the point of having the Creed placed in silver on the doors of St. Peters in Rome....Go look some time, the filioque isn't there. The later Popes wanted power, and urged by the greedy Franks, THEY, then subscribed to the Filioque...not before.

The fact is, and will remain, that arrogance on the part of Cardinal Humbert, the Papal Legate, and the greed of the later Popes brought about Schism. Nothing else. You can pull all the Latin what-ifs you want from the bag, but the truth isn't going to change. If the Pope wants re-union, let him lay aside the triple crown, and the dogmas that offend the east, and take up his position as first among equals. Until then....not likely!

Furthermore, nobody can lose their salvation, for "nobody can snatch them out of My hand." Predestination simply means you will be saved in the end and since you can't lose your salvation, of course it will cointinue to the end."Luther's doctrine of "predestinatoin" is a novelty to the Christian faith - it is nowise Biblical or traditional. You claim that nobody can snatch our salvation from God's hands, but this is merely a half-truth, for God gave us self will and choice. We can lose our salvation all on our own without somebody "snatching" it from us.

Cruz, you really are showing fits of intellectual stubbornness. I already told you that what you were citing was itself a half-truth: That Luther's belief/teaching in predestionation also automatically meant that folks can't lose their salvation.

Luther and Lutherans today believe you can lose your salvation; that folks can snatch their own spiritual lives away from God. Why do you insist on automatically linking these two concepts? And why do you insist Luther taught it? You are being intellectually dishonest when you make such a claim.

Old Testament example: The Israelites were delivered from bondage of slavery. God allowed this so it would be a prototype of the slavery of sin and that there would be a type of Old Testament deliverer (Moses)--who would foreshadow THE Savior, the Christ. Now just because the Israelites were delivered from bondage--and were pre-destined by God to be so delivered--did not equal an automatic trip guaranteed for folks to wind up in the Promised Land.

Along the way, there were grumblers & idol worshippers (calves of gold) & sexual revelry...early-on, some of the folks proved that "wide is the road that leads to destruction". Why do you think that the New Testament stresses so heavily the need for believers to persevere and to endure if the cross was merely a one-way ticket beyond earthly life?

The key point, tho, is that salvation is a relationship (John 17:3; Dt 34:10) with God...not simply an eternal place of heaven. In fact, I believe what God did with Moses is a warning not to stress the place over & above God, Himself. Note that Moses himself did not enter the Promised Land (Dt 32:51; 34:4-5)...yet the same chapter ends by emphasizing that "the Lord knew {Moses} face to face" (v. 10).

Moses, apart from the end-game, was saved because of who He knew.

You make the same mistake Martha did in John 11 when she says, "Yeah, Lord, there will be a resurrection at the last day" and Jesus rebukes her by saying "I am the resurrection...he who believes in me will never die." Martha thought the resurrection was only a place; not a Person. You think salvation/destination is only a place; I tell you that salvation is both a process (deliverance from bondage unto a Person) and a place.

The Bible simultaneously describes salvation as being from eternity (before the world began) and in time & space--in the past (Calvary); in the present (knowing God/JC); and in the future (consummation in heaven).

Salvation includes release from bondage and a promised land, but it's much much more than that: "You search the Scriptures for you think that in them there is eternal life, but I tell you they testify to me" (John 5:39). Christ and relating to Him is the real deal.

And folks can, and do, choose to stop relating to Him.

Anybody who thinks otherwise really hasn't bothered to study Lucipher & his co-horts.

They were perfect beings. They lived in a perfect environment. Yet they chose rebellion.

Yet, here, man is imperfect in an imperfect environment. Supposedly, in the eyes of the Calvinists, perfect angels could lose their relationship with God but imperfect man can't?

Finally, how could Luther embrace both predestination and losing your salvation?

Predestination is what God does (John 6:29; Eph. 1) according to His work & power; it doesn't involve us other than our reception. Losing our salvation involves our own work & power. We cannot choose salvation; we have no power to do so. Our natural will is in bondage (Rom 6; Eph. 2). There is no free will for the unsaved, wrote Luther. To say so is the same as saying that Lazarus had the power to petition Christ to raise him from the dead.

For the saved and unsaved, however, there still is the ability to choose to reject God. We do so in our natural state; so obviously, we can continue to do that--be it in our natural or supernatural state.

Oh...by the way, on the subject of that abomination you refered to, known as the "Council of Florence" (your church recognizes it as such, NOT mine) The patiarch was sick and senile, and threatened with death or worse by the Eastern Emperor, if he didn't sign the decree. And the Emperor wanted western help against the Turks..that was his ONLY motivation. Most of the other Patriarchates and Bishops of the East rejected the forced signing.

Yea, it is really easy to change theology with a SPEAR at your back.....

--Those who are ordained unto eternal life were not so ordained on account of any worthiness foreseen in them, or of any good works to be wrought by them, nor yet for their future faith, but purely and solely of free, sovereign grace, and according to the mere pleasure of God. This is evident, among other considerations, from this: that faith, repentance and holiness are no less the free-gifts of God than eternal life itself. "Faith--is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Eph. ii. 8). "Unto you it is given to believe" (Phil. i. 29). "Him hath God exalted with His right hand for to give repentance" (Acts v. 31). "Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life" (Acts xi. 18). In like manner holiness is called the sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thess. ii. 13), because the Divine Spirit is the efficient of it in the soul, and, of unholy, makes us holy. Now, if repentance and faith are the gifts, and sanctification is the work of God, then these are not the fruit of man's free-will, nor what he acquires of himself, and so can neither be motives to, nor conditions of his election, which is an act of the Divine mind, antecedent to, and irrespective of all qualities whatever in the persons elected. Besides, the apostle asserts expressly that election is not of works, but of Him that calleth, and that it passed before the persons concerned had done either good or evil (Rom. ix. 11).

Again, if faith or works were the cause of election, God could not be said to choose us, but we the choose Him, contrary to the whole tenor of scripture: "Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you" (John xv. 16). "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us. We love Him because He first loved us" (1 John iv. 10, 19). Election is everywhere asserted to be God's act, and not man's (Mark xiii. 20; Rom. ix. 17; Eph. i. 4; i Thess. v. 9; 2 Thess. ii. 13). Once more, we are chosen that we might be holy, not because it was foreseen we would be so (Eph. i. 4), therefore to represent holiness as the reason why we were elected is to make the effect antecedent to the cause. The apostle adds (ver. 5), "Having predestinated us according to the good pleasure of His will," most evidently implying that God saw nothing extra se, had no motive from without, why He should either choose any at all or this man before another. In a word, the elect were freely loved (Hosea xiv.4), freely chosen (Rom. xi. 5,6), and freely redeemed (Isa. lii. 3), they are freely called (2 Tim. i. 9), freely justified (Rom.iii., 24), and shall be freely glorified (Rom. vi. 23). The great Augustine, in his book or Retractations, ingeniously acknowledges his error in having once thought that faith foreseen was a condition of election; he owns that that opinion is equally impious and absurd, and proves that faith is one of the fruits of election, and consequently could not be,in any sense, a cause of it. " I could never have asserted," says he, "that God in choosing men to life had any respect to their faith, had I duly considered that faith itself is His own gift." And, in another treatise of his, he has these words: "Since Christ says, `Ye have not chosen Me,' etc., I would fain ask whether it be Scriptural to say we must have faith before we are elected, and not, rather, that we are elected in order to our having faith?"

--As many as are ordained to eternal life are ordained to enjoy that life in and through Christ, and on account of His merits alone (1 Thess. v. 9). Here let it be carefully observed that not the merits of Christ, but the sovereign love of God only is the cause of election itself, but then the merits of Christ are the alone procuring cause of that salvation to which men are elected. This decree of God admits of no cause out of Himself, but the thing decreed, which is the glorification of His chosen ones, may and does admit, nay, necessarily requires, a meritorious cause, which is no other than the obedience and death of Christ.

--They who are predestinated to life are likewise predestinated to all those means which are indispensably necessary in order to their meetness for, entrance upon, and enjoyment of that life, such as repentance, faith, sanctification, and perseverance in these to the end.

"As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts xiii. 48). "He hath chosen us in Him, before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy, and without blame before Him in love" (Eph. i. 4). "For we (i.e., the same we whom He hath chosen before the foundation of the world) are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath foreordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. ii. 10). And the apostle assures the same Thessalonians, whom he reminds of their election and God's everlasting appointment of them to obtain salvation, that this also was His will concerning them, even their sanctification (1 Thess. i. 4, v. 9, iv. 3), and gives them a view of all these privileges at once. "God hath, from the beginning, chosen you to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess. ii. 13). As does the apostle, "Elect--through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter i. 2). Now, though faith and holiness are not represented as the cause wherefore the elect are saved, yet these are constantly represented as the means through which they are saved, or as the appointed way wherein God leads His people to glory, these blessings being always bestowed previous to that. Agreeable to all which is that of Augustine: "Whatsoever persons are, through the riches of Divine grace, exempted from the original sentence of condemnation are undoubtedly brought to hear the Gospel, and when heard, they are caused to believe it, and are made likewise to endure to the end in the faith which works by love, and should they at any time go astray, they are recovered and set right again." A little after he adds: "All these things are wrought in them by that God who made them vessels of mercy, and who, by the election of His grace, chose them, in His Son, before the world began."

--Not one of the elect can perish, but they must all necessarily be saved. The reason is this: because God simply and unchangeably wills that all and every one of those whom He hath appointed to life should be eternally glorified, and, as was observed towards the end of the preceding chapter, all the Divine attributes are concerned in the accomplishment of this His will. His wisdom, which cannot err; His knowledge, which cannot be deceived; His truth, which cannot fail; His love, which nothing can alienate; His justice, which cannot condemn any for whom Christ died; His power, which none can resist; and His unchangeableness, which can never vary--from all which it appears that we do not speak at all improperly when we say that the salvation of His people is necessary and certain. Now that is said to be necessary (quod nequit aliter esse) which cannot be otherwise than it is, and if all the perfections of God are engaged to preserve and save His children, their safety and salvation must be, in the strictest sense of the word, necessary. (See Psalm ciii 17, cxxv. 1, 2; Isa. xlv. 17, liv. 9, 10; Jer. xxxi. 3 xxxii. 40; John vi. 39, x. 28, 29, xiv. 19, xvii. 12; Rom. vii. 30, 38, 39, xi. 29; 1 Cor. i. 8, 9; Phil. i. 6; 1 Peter i. 4, 5).

Thus St Augustine: "Of those whom god hath predestinated none can perish, inasmuch as they are His own elect," and ib., "They are the elect who are predestinated, foreknown, and called according to purpose. Now, could any of these be lost, God would be disappointed of His will and expectation; but He cannot be so disappointed, therefore they can never perish. Again, could they be lost, the power of God would be made void by man's sin, but His power is invincible, therefore they are safe." And again (chap.9), "The children of God are written, with an unshaken stability. in the book of their heavenly Father's remembrance." And in the same chapter he hath these words: "Not the children of promise, but the children of perdition shall perish, for the former are the predestinated, who are called according to the Divine determination, not one of whom shall finally miscarry." So likewise Luther: "God's decree of predestination is firm and certain, and the necessity resulting from it is, in like manner, immoveable, and cannot but take place. For we ourselves are so feeble that, if the matter was left in our hands, very few, or rather none, would be saved, but Satan would overcome us all." To which he adds: "Now, since this steadfast and inevitable purpose of God cannot be reversed nor disannulled by any creature whatever, we have a most assured hope that we shall finally triumph over sin, how violently soever it may at present rage in our mortal bodies."

--The salvation of the elect was not the only nor yet the principal end of their being chosen, but God's grand end, in appointing them to life and happiness, was to display the riches of His own mercy, and that He might be glorified in and by the persons He had thus chosen.

For this reason the elect are styled vessels of mercy, because they were originally created, and afterwards by the Divine Spirit created anew, with this design and to this very end, that the soveriegnty of the Father's grace, the freeness of His love, and the abundance of His goodness might be manifested in their eternal happiness. Now God, as we have already more than once had occasion to observe, does nothing in time which He did not from eternity resolve Himself to do, and if He, in time, creates and regenerates His people with a view to display His unbounded mercy, He must consequently have decreed from all eternity to do this with the same view. So that the final causes of election appear to be these two: first and principally, the glory of God; second and subordinately, the salvation of those He has elected, from which the former arises, and by which it is illustrated and set off. So, "The Lord hath made all things for Himself" (Prov. xvi. 1), and hence that of Paul, "He hath chosen us--to the praise of the glory of His grace" (Eph. i.).

--The end of election, which, with regard to the elect themselves, is eternal life. I say this end and the means conducive to it, such as the gift of the Spirit, faith, etc., are so inseparably connected together that whoever is possessed of these shall surely obtain that, and none can obtain that who are not first possessed of these. "As many as were ordained to eternal life," and none else, "believed' (Acts xiii. 48). "Him hath God exalted--to give repentance unto Israel and remission of sins" (Acts v. 31): not to all men, or to those who were not, in the counsel and purpose of God, set apart for Himself, but to Israel, all His chosen people, who were given to Him, were ransomed by Him, and shall be saved in Him with an everlasting salvation. "According to the faith of God's elect" (Tit.i. 1), so that true faith is a consequence of election, is peculiar to the elect, and shall issue in life eternal. "He hath chosen us--that we should be holy" (Eph. i.), therefore all who are chosen are made holy, and none but they; and all who are sanctified have a right to believe they were elected, and that they shall be saved. "Whom He did predestinate, them He also called; whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified" (Rom. viii. 30), which shows that effectual calling and justification are indissolubly connected with election on one hand and eternal happiness on the other; that they are a proof of the former and earnest of the latter. "Ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep" (John x. 26); on the contrary, they who believe, therefore, believe because they are of His sheep. Faith, then is an evidence of election, or of being in the number of Christ's sheep; consequently, of salvation, since all His sheep shall be saved (John x. 28).

--The elect may, through the grace of God, attain to the knowledge and assurance of their predestination to life, and they ought to seek after it. The Christian may, for instance, argue thus: "`As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed'; through mercy I believe, therefore, I am ordained to eternal life. `He that believeth shall be saved'; I believe, therefore, I am in a saved state. `Whom He did predestinate, He called, justified and glorified'; I have reason to trust that He hath called and justified me; therefore I can assuredly look backward on my eternal predestination, and forward to my certain glorification." To all which frequently accedes the immediate testimony of the Divine Spirit witnessing with the believer's conscience that he is a child of God (Rom. viii. 16; Gal. iv. 6; 1 John v. 10). Christ forbids His little flock to fear, inasmuch as they might, on good and solid grounds, rest satisfied and assured that "it is the Father's" unalterable "good pleasure to give them the kingdom" (Luke xii. 32). And this was the faith of the apostle (Rom. viii. 38, 39).

--The true believer ought not only to be thoroughly established in the point of his own election, but should likewise believe the election of all his other fellow-believers and brethren in Christ. Now, as there are most evident and indubitable marks of election laid down in Scripture, a child of God, by examining himself whether those marks are found on him, may arrive at a sober and well-grounded certainty of his own particular interest in that unspeakable privilege; and by the same rule whereby he judges of himself he may likewise (but with caution) judge of others. If I see the external fruits and criteria of election on this or that man, I may reasonably, and in a judgment of charity, conclude such an one to be an elect person. So St. Paul, beholding the gracious fruits which appeared in the believing Thessalonians, gathered from thence that they were elected of God (1 Thess. i. 4,5), and knew also the election of the Christian Ephesians (Eph. i, 4, 5), as Peter also did that of the members of the churches in Pontus, Galatia, etc. (1 Peter i, 2). It is true, indeed, that all conclusions of this nature are not now infallible, but our judgments are liable to mistake, and God only, whose is the book of life, and who is the Searcher of hearts, can absolutely know them that are His (2 Tim. ii. 19); yet we may, without a presumptuous intrusion into things not seen,arrive at a moral certainty in this matter. And I cannot see how Christian love can be cultivated, how we can call one another brethren in the Lord, or how believers can hold religious fellowship and communion with each other, unless they have some solid and visible reason to conclude that they are loved with the same everlasting love, were redeemed by the same Savior, are partakers of like grace, and shall reign in the same glory.

"Now, if repentance and faith are the gifts, and sanctification is the work of God, then these are not the fruit of man's free-will, concerned had done either good or evil (Rom. ix. 11)."

Your "Christian" theology on salvation is almost beyond belief. Yes, faith, like life itself, is truly a gift from God. Having the light to see our sins and thus repent of them is also a gift from God. Each breath we take is a gift from God. But what we do with these gifts is entirely up to us.

You say salvation is predetermined, Jesus says you are wrong, as he rewards the faith and good works of Zacchaeus with salvation on that day:

" And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have defrauded any one of anything, I restore it fourfold." And Jesus said to him, "TODAY salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man came to seek and to save the lost." (Luke 19: 8-10).

If Heaven is a reward, then what is being rewarded if not the freely elected path of our faith and works? Can God reward a person who was predestined or programmed for Heaven like some robot? NO! Some Scriptural examples of our works developing our faith and being rewarded by God:

(1). "And whoever gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he shall not lose his reward." (Mathew 10:42)

(2). "But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you." (Mathew 6:6)

(3). "He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward, and he who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. And whoever gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he shall not lose his reward." .

(4). "Blessed are you when men hate you, and when they exclude you and revile you, and cast out your name as evil, on account of the Son of man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets." (Luke 6: 22-23).

(5).. "By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaohs daughter, choosing rather to share ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. He considered abuse suffered for the Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he looked to the reward. (Hebrews 11: 24 - 26).

"Again, if faith or works were the cause of election, God could not be said to choose us, but we the choose Him, contrary to the whole tenor of scripture:"

The road to Heaven is a narrow and difficult path, easy to drift from and lose our salvation The entire Sermon on the Mount was Christ's teaching of how faith, works and goodness leads to salvation, and how evil works leads to damnation. Once again, He calls Heaven a reward for those who follow His teachings commands. The Sermon on the Mount condemns your novel theology of "predestination" from pillar to post.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

"Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.

Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you. "You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trodden under foot by men. "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

"You have heard that it was said to the men of old, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.' But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

"Again you have heard that it was said to the men of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.' But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil. "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

"Oh...by the way, on the subject of that abomination you refered to, known as the "Council of Florence" (your church recognizes it as such, NOT mine) The patiarch was sick and senile, and threatened with death or worse by the Eastern Emperor, if he didn't sign the decree."

So this the reason your Church gives for signing the decree at the Council of Florence? Well let's take a look at the historical documents that show exactly who was present at teh Greek side:

"Besides the emperor and his brother Demetrius, there were present, on the part of the Greeks,

Joasaph, the Patriarch of Constantinople;

Antonius, the Metropolitan of Heraclea;

Gregory Hamma, the Protosyncellus of Constantinople (the last two representing the Patriarch of Alexandria);

Marcus Eugenicus of Ephesus;

Isidore of Kiev (representing the Patriarch of Antioch);

Dionysius, Bishop of Sardes (representing the Patriarch of Jerusalem);

Bessarion, Archbishop of Nicaea;

Balsamon, the chief chartophylax;

Syropulos, the chief ecclesiarch, and the Bishops of Monembasia, Lacedaemon, and Anchielo.

It's interesting to note that your Church also signed their allegiance to the Pope as the highest authority in Christendom at that Council, and they never renegged on that part of the decree, stating to this very day that the Pope is "First among equals".

Tales of senile Patriarchs and threatening Emperors is bit of a reach to excuse the Greek "Orthodox" renegging on an officially signed decree. It's no wonder that Constantinople fell to the Mohammedans soon after they broke their word.

Satan’s greatest lie may be that good works can help sinners escape the punishment of hell and merit the joy of heaven. This lie is used by all world religions to control people and hold them in legalistic bondage. It may be the most damning lie perpetrated on the human race because the saving grace of God is nullified by man’s worthless works (Rom. 11:6). Since grace, the unmerited favor of God, is the only means by which God saves sinners, anyone attempting to merit eternal life has instead earned death (Rom. 6:23). Only by God’s grace do we get what we don’t deserve—heaven. And only by His mercy do we avoid getting what we do deserve—hell.
The only work that can save sinners is the work of God. Jesus Christ finished the work that was impossible for finite man to do (Psalm 49:7-8). He paid the eternal debt for sin and lived the perfect life required for entrance into heaven. Christ died "for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God" (1 Pet. 3:18). By His death and resurrection He completed the work of man’s redemption. Thus for sinful man to believe his works can add to, co-mingle with, complement or surpass the perfect work of Christ is an insult to God’s holiness and justice.

Why then are we exhorted to be zealous for good works and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Titus 2:14; Phil. 2:12)? And why does James say that man is justified by works and not by faith alone (Jas. 2:24)? Let us search the Scriptures.

Three Elements of Salvation

First we must understand that there are three tenses in salvation. For believers in the Lord Jesus Christ salvation is past (justification), present (sanctification) and pending (glorification). This is why the Bible reveals that Christians have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved. All Christians have been saved (past tense) from the penalty of sin. Paul writes, "you have been saved through faith…not as a result of works" (Eph. 2:8). At the moment of faith, the sinner is justified and has a right standing before God that is permanent (Heb. 10:14). He cannot be condemned again (Rom. 8:1). After justification, believers begin working out their salvation with fear and trembling (sanctification) by doing the good works God has prepared for them (Eph. 2:10). Sanctification is an ongoing process whereby Jesus is manifested in Christians which saves them from the power of sin (2 Cor. 4:11). Paul wrote: "to us who are being saved, it [the message of the cross] is the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:18). Glorification is still future and will not occur until Jesus saves believers from the presence of sin. The Bible reveals: "Christ…will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him" (Heb. 9:28).

Justification Is Not A Result of Works

Paul wrote: "The one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness (Rom. 4:5). In another passage we see "man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law (Rom. 3:28). Those who believe they can gain a right standing before God with their works and their own righteousness do not know God or His Gospel (Rom. 10:1-4). If they knew the righteousness of God they would know all their righteous works are like filthy rags in His sight (Isa. 64:6). They would know the only way to approach Him would be with empty hands of faith, bringing nothing except their sins. All human works prior to justifying faith are not acceptable to God because "without faith it is impossible to please Him" (Heb. 11:6). The Bible clearly states over and over again that works are unable to secure salvation. "By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified" (Rom. 3:20; Gal. 2:16). Salvation is "not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness" (Titus 3:5). God saved us "not according to our works" (2 Tim. 1:9). Even works done in the name of Christ will not secure salvation (Mat. 7:22-23). Salvation is based entirely on God’s doing so "that no man should boast before God" (1 Cor. 1:29; Rom. 4:2).

Reconciling James and Paul

How does James appear to contradict Paul by saying: "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone" (Jas. 2:24). It is because Paul is dealing with the nature of justification and James is dealing with the nature of faith. James is asking professing Christians, who have not shown any evidence for their new life in Christ, to "show me your faith" (Jas. 2:18). But faith is invisible to man. It is an unseen relationship between man and God. Since faith can not be seen, the best way to prove one’s faith is to be "doers of the word and not merely hearers" (Jas. 1:22). Those who do the word of God will live a righteous life in obedience to God. That is why James said: "I will show you my faith by my works" (Jas. 2:18).

Faith alone justifies but faith that justifies is never alone. It gives evidence of its existence by righteous living. James is concerned for professing Christians who have dead faith which is idle, barren, and unfruitful (Jas 2:17). He is saying that dead faith does not justify and it is useless (Jas. 2:20). Only genuine faith is alive and bears fruit. James is saying that a man who claims to have a right relationship with God will live a life of good works. You cannot have faith without works, nor justification without sanctification.

The epistle of James reflects the teaching of Jesus who said that when you bear fruit you "prove to be My disciples" (Jn. 15:8). No fruit is an indication that you are separated from Christ. Jesus also taught that a tree is known by its fruit (Mt. 7:16-20). Just as works do not produce justification, the fruit does not bring the tree into existence. It only reveals the type of tree that it is.

Works Will Be Tested

Only some of the works done after justification are intrinsically good and acceptable to God. All the works of a Christian will be tested by fire. The good works, described by Paul, as gold, silver and precious stones, will survive the fire and result in rewards at the Bema seat. They are works done in faith, motivated by a love of God, in obedience to the will of God and for His glory. The worthless works are described as wood, hay and straw. They will be burned up, and the believer shall suffer the loss of rewards (1 Cor. 3:12-15).

Four Tests for Good Works

1) The timing of the works performed. They must be done after justification not before (Eph. 2:10; Phil. 2:12; 1 Thes. 1:3).

2) The motivation for the works. They must be done in love and thanksgiving for being chosen and redeemed by God, not to merit salvation (1 Cor. 6:20; 1 Thes. 5:18).

3) The power in which the works are accomplished. They must be accomplished through faith in God’s power, not through the power of man’s flesh (John 15:5; Rom. 15:13, Phil 2:12; Col. 1:29; 2 Thes. 1:11; Heb. 11:6).

4) The glory the works produce. They must glorify God not man (Acts 4:21; Mat. 5:16; John 15:8; 1 Cor. 10:31; Col. 3:23; 1 Pet. 2:12).

Worthless works will fail all or some of these tests. They include all works done before justification, as well as works done after justification that either seek to earn God’s favor or man’s glory. An example is the rebuke by Jesus of the scribes and Pharisees: "they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries, and lengthen the tassels of their garments (Mat. 23:5). Paul wrote of those who "profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient, and worthless for any good deed (Titus 1:16).

Roman Catholic Justification

Roman Catholic teaching on justification places more emphasis on works, sacraments and obeying the law than on personal faith. In fact, Catholics are condemned if they believe they are justified by faith alone. Canon 9 of the Council of Trent states: "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification...let him be anathema." The Catholic Church teaches that the grace of justification comes, not through faith but through the sacraments, beginning with baptism. From paragraph 1992 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church we read: "Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy." Paragraph 2027 teaches Catholics that they can merit the unmerited favor of God: "Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life."

The Catechism of the Catholic Church opposes God’s Word by teaching justification:

1) is not by faith, but is obtained without personal faith through baptism (1992)

2) is not entirely the work of God, but a cooperative work between God and man (1993)

3) is not permanent, but can be lost by sin and regained through sacraments (1446)

4) is not different from sanctification, but includes it (2019)

5) is not a legal declaration by God, but conforms us to the righteousness of God (2020)

In conclusion, no one can be saved by trying to merit God’s favor. His word reveals that we are justified by grace—the unmerited and undeserved gift of God (Rom. 3:24). This gift can only be received when one forsakes all efforts to save him or her self and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:1). The grace that brings us salvation instructs us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age (Titus 2:11-12). Thus, the life of a justified person produces evidence that reflects the divine nature that has been imparted. In this way God alone is worthy of all honor, glory and praise.

"In conclusion, no one can be saved by trying to merit God’s favor."

That was the most roundabout way I've ever read to make this simple point. However, the Catholic teaching of "faith and works" by no means implies or presumes that people can find salvation by doing good deeds, or without the grace of God. This is the twisting of words and doctrine perpetrated by Protestants and Fundamentalists, (heretics all), that insidiously attempts to present Catholic doctrine as something other than it is. They set up the straw-man of "works", then attack the straw man as though it were Catholic doctrine. If the Catholic Church taught that good works saves a soul, then there would be no need for priests, the Sacraments, or to teach about Jesus Christ, the Bible, or the gospel. The Church would simply become like the Salvation Army and do good deeds and buy a ticket to Heaven. But such teaching is not the case, and never was.

Taking all of those Scriptural verses alone and trying to make a case from each of them is called "Fundamentalism", which is the greatest Protestant apostasy of the last four centuries. Scripture must be taken in its entirely, the whole picture, or else you present an illusion, (as Satan attempted to do with Jesus when he tempted Him in the desert with Bible verses). Any text without a context is always a pretext.

To truly understand the Bible, particularly the New Testament, one must look not only at the text, but at how the early Church Fathers, Saints and Bishops, (who were taught by the Apostles and the disciples of the Apostles), understood and wrote about the Bible. This is called TRADITION, as Saint Paul said we must follow in 2 Thess. 2:15 and 2 Thess. 3:6).

Saint Paul tells us clearly that we must put our Christian faith and gifts into practice, and that we have a role in our own salvation:

"Practice these duties, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers. (I Timothy 4: 15-16).

In 2 Peter we read on two occasions that self interpreting the Bible is dangerous to our souls, and we are warned against this practice. (2 Peter 1:20 / 2 Peter 3:16).

Yours is a doctrine of pride and disobedience, for the Bible demands that we act on our faith and that we do certain things that display our faith and our obedience to Christ's doctrines. Hear what Saint Paul says:

"---inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thess. 1: 8-9)

Again, Paul tells us that our faith and our souls can be lost if we do not remain vigilent:

"For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised". (Hebrews 10:36)

Listen to what Mark writes about your diluted theology in his gospel:

""Well did Isiah prophesy of you hyppocrites, as it is written, 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me'. (Mark 7:6) Nothing could be stated more clearly that being a true Christian entails doing and action, and not just some artificial profession of faith.

Though the Bible is great for teaching and quoting, it alone does not open the eyes of the believer. In fact, the Bible itself reveals this to us when Jesus was walking the road to Emmaus with the two believers. Jesus "opened the scriptures" to them, yet they still did not recognize Him. It was only when Jesus gave them the Eucharist, (when He broke the bread and blessed it, and gave them to eat), that "their eyes were opened". (Luke 24: 32-35)

But Protestants and Fundamentalists, unfortunately, do not eat the Eucharist as Jesus revealed this life-giving Sacrament in John 6:56. This is the reason for their spiritual blindness. The first Protestants just could not accept that they were truly eating the flesh of Jesus and drinking His blood, so they "departed from Jesus, and walked with him no more". (Jonh 6:66)

"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caperna-um. Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.

During the mass, priests allegedly have the power to supernaturally turn the bread and wine into the actual and literal body and blood of Jesus Christ:

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation." Pg. 347, #1376.

This Catechism quote reveals that the Catholic church still adheres to this doctrine which was defined at the Council of Trent:

"At the heart of the Eucharistic celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ's Body and Blood." Pg. 336 # 1333

The Catechism even specifies when Christ comes into the eucharist and how long He stays:

"The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ." Pg. 347 #1377

Since Catholicism is teaching members to partake in literal cannibalism, this doctrine requires serious examination. To begin with, we must determine this doctrine's origin. Is it from God, or is it a tradition of men? Catholicism insists it is scriptural, citing the words of Jesus in John 6:

"Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:53-54

Though this one verse does appear to teach cannibalism, if you read the entire passage in context, the meaning becomes clear. Right before making that statement, Jesus said:

"... For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." John 6:33-35

This teaching is consistent with the rest of Scripture. Eternal life comes through believing in Jesus Christ, not eating His body. The Lord goes on to further clarify:

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life..." John 6:40

Again, Jesus points out that eternal life comes through believing in Him. When the Lord's disciples murmured at His words, Jesus explained:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63

Jesus was talking spiritually, not physically. He was explaining that spiritually, all life comes through faith in Him, not eating His body.

Nowhere else in the Bible does God endorse cannibalism. In fact, God forbids the practice:

"But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." Genesis 9:4
"... No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood." Leviticus 17:12

God would never command His children to do something He had already forbidden.

The Biblical purpose

Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 11 shed even more light on this matter:

"For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me." 1 Corinthians 11:23-24

When Jesus said, "Take, eat: this is my body," He was not suggesting that they reach out and begin eating His literal body. To even suggest such is ridiculous. He was speaking spiritually about what He was about to accomplish on the cross.

Notice how that verse ends: "...this do in remembrance of me." Observing the Lord's Supper is a remembrance of Christ's work at Calvary, not a reenactment. The same is true of Christ's blood:

"After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me." 1 Corinthians 11:25

Jesus Himself taught the same lesson to his disciples at the Last Supper:

"And he (Jesus) took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me." Luke 22:19

Razorback...just wanted to let you know, that I personally am appreciative of your lengthy posts...especially the very long post about Mary....it has always been very appalling to me, how some of my Catholic friends, when they speak about Mary, seem to elevate her, to the very same level as Jesus, an idea which I cannot find in the Bible at all...

I think your point about the wrongness of equating tradition, with what is actually said in the Bible, is spot on correct...

Some poster earlier called your posts silly....Hardly silly at all...they are very informative, and at least for me, have provided much to think about....most of the posts from most of the posters are thought provoking, ,but I find your posts to most closely conform to what I believe and what I believe the Bible teaches us....

I am also reading all the posts from the Catholic posters, just find, that I cannot and do not agree with them...I have not read much church history, or history of the various popes, or with biographies of those such as Luther, Calvin, etc...but I do read and study my Bible each and every day, and pray for the ability to glean the truth...

Just wanted to thank you for your posts...

Thanks. The main reason I post is so that readers of these kinds of threads, whether they agree or not, will be able to see the biblical Reformed prespective. Many of the denominations who are the heirs of the Protestant Reformation are turning their back on their history and the Bible as the only inerrant source of authority for faith and practice. But God has always had a faithful remnant, and will till Christ returns.

Wrong again, Latin dude:
He WAS first among equals....and will be again when he embraces the true Church and stops being a heretic and apostate.

I know. No one man can/should take credit for God's work.

Or actually I should just say "no man" -- and we shouldn't be too hasty to give any man too much credit for God's use of him.

"This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation." Pg. 347, #1376."

Yes, I've read Trent, and own the Catechism of Trent. It's more than interesting to note that the earliest Christians were persecuted by the Romans, in part, because these Christians taught that they were truly eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ. The Romans then accused them of cannibalism in the Sacramental rite of the Eucharist.

As Athenagoras records:

"Three things are alleged against us: atheism, Thyestean feasts [cannibalism], Oedipodean intercourse [incest]".

The early Saints and Church Fathers also record the literal presence of Jesus Christ's body and blood in the Eucharist:

"And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh". Saint Justyn Martyr, 130 A.D. - "CHAP. LXVI.--OF THE EUCHARIST. (Martyred in Rome in 165 A.D.

"I take no pleasure in corruptible food or in the delights of this life. I want the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who is the seed of David; and for drink I want his Blood ----." Saint Ignatius of Antioch, (friend of Saint John the Evangelist, Martyred in 110 A.D.)

Here is another excerpt from Saint Ignatius; from his letter to the Smyrnian Church in the late First Century concerning the gnostics:

"Charity is no concern to them, nor are widows and orphans or the oppressed . . .They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins and which, in his goodness, the Father raised . . ."

Saint Paul direly warns the apostates and heretics about partaking of the Eucharist without discerning the actual flesh and blood of Christ being present in It. When he learned that some were coming together to partake of the Eucharist for a mere meal or "remembrance", he chastised them:

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. (I Cor. 10: 26-27)

The partaking of the Eucharist is not just some "memorial", but also the actual recreation of Christ's sacrifice, as Paul writes:

""For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lords death until he comes." (I Corinthians 11:27).

I'm wondering why the Protestants and Fundamentalists just don't get it?

"When Jesus said, "Take, eat: this is my body," He was not suggesting that they reach out and begin eating His literal body. To even suggest such is ridiculous."

Just another Fundamentalist smoke and mirrors reply. Of course we know that Jesus was holding bread that He blessed, and suggesting that the Apostles reach out and take that, after His crucifixion and resurrection, as His body and blood. Note the words of Christ's proclamation to His Church as He held the bread up:

"Take, eat; this is my body." And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Mathew 26:26)

If you refer to John 6:60-66, you will see some of Jesus' disciples walking away from this very teaching of eating Jesus' body and blood, because, as they grumbled: "this is an hard teaching". Do you suppose they thought that eating the Flesh and Blood only symbolically was so hard to accept? Or, in a moment of clarity, will you open your eyes and see that they could have only walked away from this "hard" teaching because they took it literally and could not accept it? Also, note that Jesus did not call them back, He let them walk to their own destruction. And it was Peter who accepted the "hard" teaching and said: "to whom else shall we go"? He kept his faith, while the first Protestants walked away down the wide path.

I'll let other readers judge whether my previous posts are smoke and mirrors, as you charge.

When Jesus offered His disciples bread, he said, "take eat, this is my body." Christ was standing there in His body, offering them bread. He was not asking them to begin gnawing on his literal flesh but on the bread. The Bible never says the bread changed into his body. Most rational people would take his offer to mean that the bread represents the body they saw standing before them. If I open my wallet and take out a picture of my children and tell someone "Here are my children," any rational person would know that I meant that the picture is a likeness or a representation of my children. How many people would think that my children really consist of kodak paper and ink. If I show them I picture of my house, I doubt if anyone with any sense would think that I actually live in the photograph. When the classic work of art, Mona Lisa, was painted, most people know that the paint on the canvas is not actually the person Mona Lisa. In Luke 22:19 and 1Cor.11:24 Christ said that the bread and the fruit of the vine was to be done "in remembrance." In the Lord's Supper we remember Him and His sacrifice, we don't re-sacrifice Him. This is not rocket science.

The Catholic church claims that Christ must be re-sacrificed in the mass. And yet the Bible could not be any clearer on this subject:

Heb.7:25 "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb.9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us...25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb.10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

When Christ shed His blodd and died His substitutionary sacrificial death on the cross, He cried out, "It is finished." This corresponds with the aorist tense of the Greek words used in Hebrews meaning not just "once," but "once for all forever."

The Apostle Peter uses this same kind of language in describing Christ's sacrifial death in 1Pet.3:18.

1Pet.3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Likewise from the Apostle Paul:

Rom.6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Most Protestants believe that the taking of unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine in the Lord's Supper is a beautiful and meaningful service in which we examine ourselves and repent of sins, and remember the tremendous price that Christ paid on the cross for those sins. But we don't for a minute we believe we are chewing Jesus when we eat the bread.

Father John O’Brien gives the unscriptural and blasphemous view of this alleged "re-sacrificing" of Christ in the Roman Catholic Mass in his book, The Faith of Millions:

When the priest announces the tremendous words of consecration, he reaches up into the heavens, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the Victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of saints and angels, greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim. The priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal Victim for the sins of man—not once but a thousand times! The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows his head in humble obedience to the priest’s command.

The unscriptural nature of such arrogant blasphemous statements by the Roman Catholic Church is one of the main sparks that lit the fires of the Reformation. The beginning of the Reformation, with Wycliffe and Huss, long before Luther, coincides with the availability of the Bible in the language of the common man. No person who knows the Scripture could abide a church that has drifted so far away from the clear teachings of the Word of God.

But when the priest says the magic words over the wafers, they are supposed to become Christ's body. The congregation is to bow before their wafer god, for, after all, it is now Christ. An attendant with a net follows the giving of the wafer to the communicant so that if Jesus [the wafer] is mishandled, He won't have to suffer the indignity of falling on the ground, but will be caught in the net. In many parts of the world, the wafer is placed in a golden sunburst styled frame and held aloft as a procession makes its way down the street so that everyone can "adore" the wafer god.

Pope Pius XI associated the worship of Christ in The Blessed Sacrament with expiation for sin. The Angel at Fatima and the Blessed Mother taught us to adore the Blessed Sacrament and make reparation for our sins. John Paul II said "all the evils of the world could be overcome through the great power of Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration. The devil is put to flight wherever Jesus is adored in the Most Blessed Sacrament." He asked, "How will young people be able to know the Lord if they are not introduced to the mystery of his presence?" Pope Paul VI proclaimed, "How great is the value of conversation with Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, for there is nothing more efficacious for advancing along the road of holiness!" Catholics can now enjoy all these benefits by adoring the Eucharist on the Internet. A site has been set up using a "web cam" for long distance "adoration."

Many Catholics, upon being questioned about this subject will deny that their Sacrifice of the Mass is really a weekly resacrifice of Christ's actual physical body and blood for their sins. But what is prayed by the priest when he consecrates the host [bread]?

We offer to you, God of glory and majesty, this holy and perfect sacrifice the bread of life and the cup of eternal salvation. Look with favor on these offerings and accept them as once you accepted the gifts of your servant Abel, the sacrifice of Abraham, our Father in faith, and the bread and wine offered by your priest Melchizedek. Almighty God, we pray that your angel may take this sacrifice to your altar in heaven. Then, as we receive from this altar the sacred body and blood of your Son, let us be filled with every grace and blessing.

Catholics even have their own their own version of the TEN COMMANDMENTS. They leave out the Second Commandment which forbids the making of graven images to be used in worship. To make their edited version of the Commandments still add up to ten they usually split the Tenth Commandment, which forbids covetousness, into two commandments. Again this is typical of Catholicism. When church tradition and the pope's ex-cathedra statements contradict Scripture, Roman Catholicism always goes with tradition and the pope.

By the way, Baptists and most Protestants do as Jesus commanded and take the bread and the fruit of the vine. Catholics only are allowed to take the bread. For some reason Catholics must believe the bread becomes Christ's literal flesh when they eat it, but are not permitted to take the cup, which Christ also commanded, and drink what the Catholics believe has magically turned into Christ's human blood.

This whole matter of whether the bread and the fruit of the vine becomes the literal flesh and blood of Jesus Christ after the priest consecrates it could easily be solved by submitting the bread to chemical analysis before its consecration and after its consecration.

Many people may feel that this whole issue is not important. But since the Catholic church pronounces a curse [anathema] on those who refuse to believe the bread and juice becomes Christ's actual physical flesh and blood, and since thousands of Protestants were tortured and executed for refusing to accept this lunacy, the issue should be seen as very important after all.

If anyone is guilty of using smoke and mirrors, it is the pretentious priest who attempts to make all of the onlookers believe that his Latin mumbo jumbo is turning a wafer of bread and some wine into the God of the Universe, so participants can dine on Him.

The Lord Jesus Christ saved me and is my high priest, he offered one once-for-all-never-again-to-be-repeated-or-needed sacrifice for sins

Well, that should make some heads spin, ya nasty, anti-Catholic bigot, you!

I love this; they offer lies and twisted "scripture". When you refute it with truth (from the Truth), you are not answered with truth (because theirs is lies), only labeled "anti-catholic, bigot, etc.". Well, to which I say "GOOD!" Because that makes God anti-catholic and a bigot, too!!

The Pope never saved anyone. Only the blood of the Lamb.