507th's weapons failed in combat, Army report says (M-16 Rifle)

El Paso Times ^ | July 10, 2003 | Diana Washington Valdez

[Aliska]

Several soldiers of the 507th Maintenance Company could not defend themselves or their comrades March 23 because their weapons malfunctioned while they sustained a lengthy fire attack by Iraqis near Nasiriyah, Iraq, according to a U.S. Army report on the ambush.

The weapons that jammed or otherwise failed included a M-249 machine gun called a SAW (squad automatic weapon), a .50 caliber machine gun, as well as several M-16 rifles. The M-16 is the Army's standard issue weapon.

The report is not conclusive about why up to three different kinds of weapons failed and suggests that the "malfunctions may have resulted from inadequate individual maintenance in a desert environment."

For rest of story click on link.

[Aliska]

This has been discussed before here on FR, but I don't have the link to the old article. At that time, people didn't believe there was a problem with the M-16. There may indeed be a problem with the weapon jamming.

Not my area of expertise but thought some would find it interesting.

[Support Free Republic]

Totally off-topic, but did you know that only about 1,000 people contribute to keep Free Republic up and running? That is out of over 100,000 registered users on this site.

---

What would you do Without Free Republic?

2 posted on 3/6/02 7:30 AM Pacific by grammymoon:

"What would you do Without FR?

How would You Feel without FR?

Suppose one day you tried to log on and Free Republic wasn’t there?

Where would you get your up to the minute news? How about the live threads as things are happening?

How would you know about the latest Demorat scams, anti-second amendment schemes and all the other liberal, anti-American ploys that are tried every single day?

Insight into world affairs, brilliant wit, sharp retorts, instant information gratification are a few of the things that make FR so vital.

How would you keep on top of things without FR?

How would you know who to contact to complain about the lying politicians, Media Bias, Hollyweirds latest mouth off, sponsors of these idiots, company policies that are unfair and all the other things we need to know to counteract the liberal mindset and the evil plans of liberals?

How would you be part of a Freep?

What would you do without FR????

Freedom isn’t free.

If you enjoy the site and find it a place of like minded Americans to sound off, to get together, to fight back, to have your voice heard and make a difference,PLEASE CONTRIBUTE NOW ! Donate Here By Secure Server

Jim can’t do this alone.

The liberals are sure we won’t be able to keep FR up & running. Prove them wrong. Show them we are indeed united Freepers. Whether it is $5.00, $50.00 or more, it all adds up. Please send a donation now to Free Republic.

Or mail checks to
FreeRepublic , LLC
PO BOX 9771
FRESNO, CA 93794
or you can use
PayPal at Jimrob@psnw.com

Become A Monthly Donor

STOP BY AND BUMP THE FUNDRAISER THREAD

**** And say THANKS to Jim Robinson! ****

It is in the breaking news sidebar!

[xrp]

The M-16 is the Army's standard issue weapon.

Not for too much longer...

[Ed_in_NJ]

Arer they made in China, or Mexico?

[Aliska]

That looks hard to handle. What is it?

[Prodigal Son]

Here's the whole article.

Several soldiers of the 507th Maintenance Company could not defend themselves or their comrades March 23 because their weapons malfunctioned while they sustained a lengthy fire attack by Iraqis near Nasiriyah, Iraq, according to a U.S. Army report on the ambush.

The weapons that jammed or otherwise failed included a M-249 machine gun called a SAW (squad automatic weapon), a .50 caliber machine gun, as well as several M-16 rifles. The M-16 is the Army's standard issue weapon.

The report is not conclusive about why up to three different kinds of weapons failed and suggests that the "malfunctions may have resulted from inadequate individual maintenance in a desert environment."

Pentagon and Fort Bliss officials declined to comment Wednesday on any aspects of the report until it is released to the public today or Friday. Nine members of the 507th died, four were wounded and another six were captured in the ambush.

Amalia Estrella, mother of Pvt. Ruben Estrella-Soto, said that although she was told June 27 about her son's death, she and her husband are not satisfied with what they were told.

"I can accept a human error because they are human; it's the desert and it's difficult. But where was the combat support?" she asked. "They took a long time to bring my son's body to me because he was supposedly shot in the head and a piece of his head was missing. They asked me to sign a paper that said I would accept my son without this body part. Now, they are telling me that when he was trying to escape from the (ambush) his vehicle struck an Iraqi tank and it was the impact that killed him, and not a gunshot."

The military report does not address whether the ammunition was sufficient for the attack that lasted 60 to 90 minutes, or whether any of the weapons had been listed as unusable previously because they had not been working properly.

Some of the Fort Bliss soldiers who experienced problems with their weapons include Cpl. Damien Luten, Spc. Joseph Hudson, Sgt. James Riley and Spc. James Grubb. A convoy that included 507th commander Capt. Troy King and other soldiers "returned fire while moving," and without specifying which soldiers and what weapons were involved, the report said "most of the soldiers in this (other) group report that they (too) experienced weapons malfunctions."

The report said Luten "attempted to return fire with the 507th's only .50 cal. machine gun, but the weapon failed." Another part of the report said "Spc. Grubb returned fire with his M-16 until wounded in both arms, despite reported jamming of his weapon" and Riley tried getting a slain 507th soldier's M-16 "since his own rifle had malfunctioned." Hudson, who was driving one of the vehicles during the attack, tried to fire his M-249 "but it malfunctioned," the report said.

Among the first to return fire were Pfc. Edward Anguiano and Sgt. George Buggs of the 3rd Forward Support Battalion, who were attached to the 507th convoy. They fired their M-249 from the rear of the Humvee they were in, but later died. Other weapons issued to the unit members were the M-9 (9 mm pistol), which is usually given to officers and senior enlisted soldiers, and the MK-19 (40 mm grenade machine gun).

Before the convoy's departure from Camp Virginia, Kuwait, "the soldiers were issued a basic combat load of ammunition for their personal weapons" (210 rounds for the M-16, 1,000 rounds for the M-249 and 45 rounds for the M-9). They were also issued ammunition for the .50 caliber machine gun and the MK-19 grenade machine gun, "however, all pyrotechnics, hand grenades, and AT-4 anti-tank weapons were consolidated and secured (locked away)," the report said.

While at Camp Virginia, the 507th had training and preparations for ambush procedures, rules of engagement (the legal rules for when and how you fight an enemy) and weapons maintenance, the report said. Although the soldiers "observed armed civilians and what appeared to be armed Iraqi soldiers at the two checkpoints ... (and) the Iraqi soldiers at the checkpoint waved to the convoy," the 507th members were prevented from firing their weapons at them unless they detected a hostile intent.

The report said the supply convoy received small arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire from all sides. Several soldiers were killed or injured as a result of gunfire or because of wrecks during the ambush.

[Aliska]

Arer they made in China, or Mexico?

I don't know much about any of this. They were talking about it locally this afternoon. Among the snippets I picked up was that the Remington something is more reliable and that we shouldn't be buying Beretta's from Italy.

Our troops deserve the best, that's all I can say.

[gitmo]

Please educate ... what is that?

[templar]

Nice to see the M16 works as well in Iraq as it did for me in VietNam.

[Aliska]

Thanks. I always excerpt because I don't like to get FR into difficulties with the papers.

[Prodigal Son]

From the article:

The report is not conclusive about why up to three different kinds of weapons failed and suggests that the "malfunctions may have resulted from inadequate individual maintenance in a desert environment."

We're talking about 3 different weapons systems here. Not just the M16. I've posted as much on another thread that I thought either inadequate maintenance or inadequate instruction or operation were at fault for this. That's the only way to explain it. These weren't infantry folk- these were clerks and mechanics. Not to knock 'em but from my own experience, the level of maintenance and knowledge of weapons was much lower among these MOS than in the combat specialties. The 50 Cal in particular is a time tested and reliable weapon. If you take care of it- it shoots.

[Servant of the Nine]

The weapons that jammed or otherwise failed included a M-249 machine gun called a SAW (squad automatic weapon), a .50 caliber machine gun, as well as several M-16 rifles.

If these people couldn't keep Ma Deuce firing they know nothing about maintainance.
That leads me to believe none of the weapons was at fault.
The operators were.

So9

[Prodigal Son]

This isn't one those papers though is it? FR is an awesome research tool for Freepers and nonFreepers alike. I've bookmarked good articles from other sources only to come back later and find the article "altered" or gone. Once we get it into FR's archives, it's there for everybody and doesn't get missing later when it's needed for research.

LOL- it's like a fossil in a museum. It's there.

[Prodigal Son]

If these people couldn't keep Ma Deuce firing they know nothing about maintainance.

Pretty much ;-)

[tet68]

Sounds like more of a maintance problem, the problem occurred in several weapon types, not a good sign.
someone wasn't keeping the troops on the ball, is my guess.

[Ispy4u]

Exactly what I was thinking.

Well Said.

[Aliska]

Nice to see you lived to tell about it :-).

[Aliska]

I didn't try to search for the old one because I couldn't remember any of the key words. Maybe somebody has it bookmarked and can provide a link. There was something about a Col. Hackworth in it, and everybody seemed to look dimly on him as a reliable source.

[Servant of the Nine]

Among the snippets I picked up was that the Remington something is more reliable and that we shouldn't be buying Beretta's from Italy.

The Beretta is the only shotgun in the world designed from the ground up as a combat weapon. The ones we buy will be made here by Beretta USA.

There are still people who don't trust an automnatic shotgun and claim the Remington pump is more reliable. That has not been true since plastic replaced cardboard in shotshell manufacture 30 years ago.

So9

[tortoise]

These weren't infantry folk- these were clerks and mechanics.

And therein lies the problem. These people had essentially zero experience using their weapons in the field. The article basically says that every weapon system they had "failed". It sounds a hell of a lot like operator failure to me.

Incidentally, I've used M16s for weeks at a time in all sorts of filthy nasty conditions and never had a problem, even with very minimal maintenance. But then, I was infantry and I knew my weapon backward and forward.

[Joe 6-pack]

"Sounds like more of a maintance problem, the problem occurred in several weapon types, not a good sign. someone wasn't keeping the troops on the ball, is my guess."

Agreed. Sounds like dirty weapons to me.

[Ajnin]

The M-16 is a good reliable weapon when you take care of it. The are times when it will malfunction just like any other weapon. Improper handling, excessive carbon and dirt will make any weapon malfunction. The fact that so many weapons malfunctioned at the same time leads me to believe that they were not properly maintained. Considering the 507th is a support unit they probably placed a low priority on the maintenance of their weapons. Also, they may not of had the skills necessary to perform the proper immiediate action.

[Aliska]

That's reassuring that the Beretta will be made in the USA. I never liked foreign-sourcing our primary weapons. As an aside, that gun they used to capture Elian with was made in Germany, unless they have an American subsidiary.

[jwalsh07]

Make all combat support troops in the US Army have a primary MOS of 11B and this problem will resolve itself.

[Yardstick]

That looks hard to handle. What is it?

I don't know, but I agree with you that it looks hard to handle. It looks boxy and awkward and not at all like an improvement over what we have now.

Why not outfit our guys with Kalashnikovs? I know that would be a heresy, but those things seem indestructable and foolproof.

[Copernicus]

The M-16 is a particularly cantankerous weapon favored by political operatives at the top of the chain of command and gradually altered over time to minimal combat standards.

Support troops are not generally trained to the same standards as frontline combat troops which is why they frequently suffer higher causalties in frontline combat conditions.

As with most catastrophic failures, the 507th incident probably resulted from a number of incrementally small mistakes any one of which could have altered the outcome favorably had it been avoided or overcome.

I would tend to believe the individuals in that unit were unfamiliar with their weapons under the best circumstances and were thus unable to use them properly in extreme conditions.

Best regards,

[colorado tanker]

I suspect a cleaning/maintenance issue here. Combat units didn't complain about large scale failures and these weapons have been in use quite some time. In a harsh environment like that, cleaning of personal weapons is critical, but it probably wasn't the highest priority in a rear echelon unit.

[tet68]

There are still people who don't trust an automnatic shotgun and claim the Remington pump is more reliable.

It is in certain circumstances, there is something to be said for simplicity. Get one with TWO action bars, by the way.

[Aliska]

If it was a maintenance problem, they need to address that. If the troops needed better training, they need to address that. Also, they probably did lack experience, being a support unit, but some are dead who might not be.

[xrp]

That is the OICW, the intended replacement for the M-16A2 rifle, M4A1 carbine and M203 grenade launcher.

More information here.

[mtbopfuyn]

Three different weapons. Several soldiers responsible for their own maintenance. Sounds like they didn't get the proper training. Have there been reports of other such incidences of jammed guns?

[Aliska]

Why not outfit our guys with Kalashnikovs?

I would have no problem with that if they are reliable and effective in combat and there is adequate quality control.

[tet68]

That's the weapon of the future, and it weighs somewhere
around 13 or 14 lbs.,on top is a 20 mm shooting Fuzed explosive rounds ,controlled by a computer set up in the sights.underneath is a rifle.

The idea is good, the reality.........I'm not so sure.

[fourdeuce82d]

At that time, people didn't believe there was a problem with the M-16

Still don't. REMFs with guns. Should have issued them pointed sticks instead. Same result, less noise.

[Prodigal Son]

But then, I was infantry and I knew my weapon backward and forward.

So was I.

I tell ya a little anecdote. In Bosnia, my platoon was practically bored to death. Sitting in a tent on top of a hill for months. Knee deep snow. No reason to go outside. Nothing to do but sit around and look at each other.

Anyway. We had a ADA Humvee attached to us on this hill. Just two guys- an E5 and one enlisted. They rotated down to their main unit about once every two weeks so we got someone new to look at every so often. One of these new ADA enlisted was fascinated that all of us infantry types would clean our weapons regularly "even though nobody told you to". We were like- "well yeah, you gotta take care of your weapon the way you would take care of your c--k, your life might depend on it.".

The guy (I think he was a PFC) decided he would spend a little time cleaning his weapon as well. He could not charge his weapon! The bolt was rusted shut! We had to take a hammer and work it loose. He had been running around with this weapon like that for weeks and weeks. He never knew his weapon wouldn't fire and it had never crossed his mind (or his leaders') to inspect it periodically. His weapon- wasn't!

It's a whole different world in the different parts of the Army.

[dts32041]

Clerks and Jerks, could keep Ma Duece running and if there weapons failed, bet maintenance had not been preformed in days.

In the desert you maintain your vehicles weapons prior to maintaining yourswelf.

Have had one failure in the years I carried an M-16, missing an extractor pin.

After that always checked new weapons issued to me.

No failures and thousand of rouns fire.

Can't talk about the SAW, but assume you need to preform routine maitnence on that also.

[Aliska]

That's the drift I got from hearing it discussed.

[Servant of the Nine]

That looks hard to handle. What is it?

XM29
Objective Individual Combat Weapon
(OICW)

So9

[Aliska]

Have there been reports of other such incidences of jammed guns?

This is the first I know of, other than the Col. Hackworth piece buried in the archives which was not regarded as very reliable here.

[VOA]

It is in certain circumstances, there is something to be said for simplicity.
Get one with TWO action bars, by the way.

Maybe you can correct something I've heard before...
that one of the old Winchester pump shotguns (Model 1897?) was popular in WWI
in "sweeping trenches" because if you simply held down the trigger and cycled
the pump, the beast would just fire as soon as the shell was loaded into the chamber.

True, not true, or sort-of-true?

[Aliska]

That doesn't look like it would be a good weapon to issue female troops, and it would be hard to haul around if you are on foot. It looks pretty deadly though.

[HoustonCurmudgeon]

but from my own experience, the level of maintenance and knowledge of weapons was much lower among these MOS than in the combat specialties. The 50 Cal in particular is a time tested and reliable weapon. If you take care of it- it shoots.

BINGO!

[VOA]

507th's weapons failed in combat, Army report says (M-16 Rifle)

Maybe one of the better brains here at freerepublic can give a citation...

...but I believe that during the time of that one horrendous sand-storm
during the drive north from Kuwait, there was one newspaper/media report
of some lowly enlisted fellow who had discovered some lubricant that was really
much better at keeping infantry weapons working (cycling) during extremely
dirty (sand-storm?) conditions; that is, much better than the standard issue.

Maybe someone can resurrect that thread and mail a copy to their local Army/Marine
recruitment station or Guard unit...just to see it gets a fair hearing.

[Ajnin]

This is the reason the US Marine Corps makes every Marine go through combat training on a regular basis. Perhaps the Army should look at similar training.

[Prodigal Son]

Well- it does! ;-)

[xm177e2]

That is the OICW, the intended replacement for the M-16A2 rifle, M4A1 carbine and M203 grenade launcher.

No, it's the intended replacement for the rifle/GL combination. Footsoldiers will continue to carry M16-type rifles into battle.

[Servant of the Nine]

That doesn't look like it would be a good weapon to issue female troops, and it would be hard to haul around if you are on foot. It looks pretty deadly though.

It is a semi auto 20mm grenade launcher as powerful as the current 40mm that can command detonate the grenades as they pass over the target if necessary. The thermal/starlight/visible light laser rangefinder can display on the helmet viewfinder, so that you can literally shoot around corners. It also contains a conventional 5.56mm assault rifle for close in defense.

So9

[SSN558]

A fifty jam is not unheard of but highly unlikely. Is the Pentagon sure that the 507th just peed in their pants and forgot to pull the trigger ?

[spartan68]

Glad to see the M-16 is still as reliable as it was in NAM! --/sarcasm off

[tortoise]

Why not outfit our guys with Kalashnikovs?

Because even the really nice ones (e.g. Valmets) are piss poor combat weapons in a lot of ways for a highly trained combat grunt. They may be adequate for peasants or poorly trained troops, but their shortcomings are legion if you are little more high-speed and the Kalashnikov system starts to hinder battlefield performance. The M16 may be a poor choice for poorly trained troops, but it is a wonderful platform for highly-trained soldiers.

If you've done urban or CQB with AK actions, one thing you notice right away is that those weapons are slow to operate in a dozen different ways compared to an M16 action. If nothing else, Stoner was detail oriented on the ergonomics side of things. When going up against other well-trained troops operational speed matters, and it can be the difference between your ass and the other guy's.