Troops quietly defy Scout policy on gays

Providence Journal ^ | July 20, 2003 | Jennifer Levitz

[Kahonek]

"Your submission is accepted. Your proof?"

There's a lot of anecdotal and empirical support for this statement. I meet quite a few people in my profession, and I've known only two people who are significantly attracted to both sexes. The data show that the vast majority of post-pubertal individuals across cultures are heterosexual, that there is a minority that is homosexual (1-5%, depending on how you count them), and there are very few people who have significant bisexual attraction (generally less than 1%). I think that if you truly do not feel that you have a sexual orientation (e.g. you look at very attractive men and very attractive women in the same way), that would be very rare indeed.

[Kahonek]

"there is much evidence that little boys don't really like little girls as much as other little boys and it takes quite a bit of time for them to change"

Yes. However, when they change, their feelings toward girls are a lot different than their old feelings about boys.

Your perspective on sexual motivation sounds virtually Freudian. Freud's perspective was problematic in a whole lot of ways.

[Clint N. Suhks]

But there is much evidence that little boys don't really like little girls as much as other little boys and it takes quite a bit of time for them to change.

Exactly right. It’s much easier to be with the same sex as they are more like you. There is a natural conflict between the sexes and often homosexuality begins with the avoidance this conflict. Heterosexuality is a learned behavior; children raised in a culture that promotes the traditional family unit adapt and emulate the same behaviors as their parents. Evidence of the opposite is seen with higher rates (as high as 20%) of homosexuality practiced by children raised in homosexual households, statistically and disproportionately out of the general homosexual population.

[LadyDoc]

excuse the statement, which should have been "If you are straight and you are not promiscuous"

Not all boys in high school are promiscuous. a majority have sex by age age 18 but not all. And most of them only have sex on a few occassions or with their girlfriends.

Gay men have "one night stands".

It's the difference between six lovers by age 20 and 600....

[conservcalgal]

Why would a straight teen boy be a Scout?

FYI: My straight son is trying to complete something he started 7 years ago
signed
Mom of soon to be Eagle Scout!

[mommadooo3]

ALSO not mentioned in the story, is that the g.a.y.s, have NOT made ANY attempt to form their OWN group.

If their intentions are as 'honorable' and 'innocent' as they claim, then WHY wouldn't the 'gay scouts of America' be the next best thing to the 'boy' scouts?

[Quick1]

Not all boys in high school are promiscuous. a majority have sex by age age 18 but not all.

Only because girls say no. Let's face it, the only thing that really keeps most straight guys' urges in check are women. If you give them the option to have sex as much as they want, most would choose to do so. Why? Because they're walking hormones.

There is no controlling factor in the homosexual "mating" (for lack of a better word) dance. They're both guys, and they want to get laid. It doesn't have anything to do with homosexuality, just basic sociology.

[ArGee]

Yes. However, when they change, their feelings toward girls are a lot different than their old feelings about boys.

We are discussing whether those feelings change because of a hardwired orientation, or because of societal influences.

Please note that neither reason supports accepting homosexuality as a valid alternative lifestyle. Shalom.

[ArGee]

I would guess that you don't live here in California.

I suspect, although there won't be proof for a while, that we are moving toward a bisexual culture. When I was young, if a young man had homosexual urges he would have done anything he could to hide the fact, because it was generally known that this was sick.

However, today it is not believed that homosexual attraction is a sickness, so more boys are willing to "experiment" with it, with a reasonable outcome being "I wasn't really gay."

In 20 years or so, boys will sleep with whomever it pleases them to sleep with at the moment. Declaring a preferred gender will be passe.

Shalom.

[WestPacSailor]

Precisely the same reason I would not let my daughter be in a Girl Scout troop going camping alone with a heterosexual man.

[Kahonek]

"We are discussing whether those feelings change because of a hardwired orientation, or because of societal influences."

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that. I haven't suggested either possibility. I was just making the point that sexual orientation exists independently of sexual behavior (the original poster equated the two) and that it generally predates sexual behavior. We really don't know yet what causes sexual orientation.

"Please note that neither reason supports accepting homosexuality as a valid alternative lifestyle."

No -- I agree with you. That's obviously an orthogonal issue.

[ArGee]

I was just making the point that sexual orientation exists independently of sexual behavior

If you are correct, and I still suggest that it is learned, then the valid orientation is heterosexual. A homosexual "orientation" is a sign of someone needing help, not encouragement.

Shalom.

[Kahonek]

"If you are correct, and I still suggest that it is learned..."

Okay. I'm not really ready to suggest either way yet, as the data aren't in. If sexual orientation is learned, it is likely as a result of something other than actual sexual experience with others. Virtually everyone (gay or straight) knows their sexual orientation before their first sexual experience with another person. Regardless of whether it's learned or not, it does exist independently of behavior.

"A homosexual "orientation" is a sign of someone needing help, not encouragement."

Feel free to help those that you believe need help. I do.

[ArGee]

Virtually everyone (gay or straight) knows their sexual orientation before their first sexual experience with another person.

I'd be interested in seeing the data on that, and how it is determined. I am aware that most people who talk about their first homosexual encounter talk about being either seduced or molested by an older person.

That is anecdotal, of course, but I know of no one who disclaims it.

Shalom.

[Kahonek]

"I'd be interested in seeing the data on that"

You might check out Bell's 1981 book "Sexual Preference: Its Development in Men and Women." A lot of things have changed since then, but it's a pretty good read for a layperson. Among the findings are that most gay people know their orientation before engaging in sex, and that most of them have their first sexual encounter with someone roughly their own age (although the rate of first sex with an older partner is higher among gay men than among straight men).

There are a great many forces influencing sexual orientation and its disclosure, making it difficult to draw firm conclusions in this area. For instance, while there is a trend toward greater disclosure of homosexuality (or perhaps even greater rates of homosexuality) recently, and kids are having sex at younger ages, there is an even greater tendency for gay people to acknowledge their sexual orientation before engaging in sex these days (perhaps because they understand the issue better).

[Imagine]

Homosexuality:

Homosexuality is deviant sexual behavior and a mental illness.

Homosexuals: 1) subject their body parts to uses nature did not intend, such activities often presenting immediate risk to the participants; 2) are prone to greater suicide, depression and other mental disorders and deficiencies than the heterosexual population at large; 3) are prone to far greater sexually transmitted diseases, including AIDS, than the (normal) heterosexual population; 4) molest young people (pedophilia) at a far greater rate than heterosexuals; 5) engage in degrading sexual promiscuity, oftentimes engaging in risky sex with many partners during the same event; 6) are engaged in aggressive and widespread efforts to indoctrinate our children by introducing the homosexual lifestyle using public schools as the primary indoctrination “vehicle” and likewise, through the movie/music/TV industry, with the dual goals of gaining school-age acceptance of homosexuality and encouraging sexual activity among children, especially same-sex experimentation; 7) view most everything through a mindset heavily biased in favor of the homosexual lifestyle and culture, which renders them mostly useless when asked to opine on matters that normal heterosexuals better resolve.

The mental deficiencies described herein applying to homosexuals shall not be confused with the deficiencies associated with the left wing democrat/socialist/marxist/ feminist/environmentalist minds, etc., which have their own distinct set of mental disorders.

This doesn't even touch on what the Bible has to say about homosexuality.

[ArGee]

I'd have a hard time believing that the results are credible. If they were, such a conclusion from 1981 would have far more profound impact on the current debate. I did a quick Google search and could only find a few quotes from the book on some pro-gay Web sites, no serious discussion of what is done there. However, there are FReepers who keep up with the responses to various studies far better than I, so I am going to ask them for their opinions.

Guys - what's the consensus on Bell 1981? Feel free to ask others who might know.

Shalom.

[Kahonek]

It's likely at your local library. Feel free to read it yourself and draw your own conclusions. It's okay to do that now and then...

[ArGee]

Feel free to read it yourself and draw your own conclusions.

Of course, but there are methodologies that I have not studied in the Social Sciences, other than to know that it is difficult to come up with a good methodology. I could read Kinsey, but it would be foolish to do so since Kinsey's methodologies are known to have been flawed.

As I said, a 1981 work that was actually of value would not be obscure - especially one that had the capacity to prove wrong what we all know to be right - that sexual preferences are learned.

Shalom.