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What's Really Behind the Episcopal Controversy (Vanity)
August 6, 2003 | Miss Marple

Posted on 08/06/2003 7:08:03 AM PDT by Miss Marple

With apologies for posting a vanity, but I wanted to put this theory up for serious discussion.

The gay movement in churches does, indeed force people out (along with other divisive liberal issues). I myself have left my life-long church, the Methodists, because of several doctrinal and political disagreements.

I have noticed that the gays are not lobbying in the Southern Baptists, nor in the Church of Christ, nor in the Assemblies of God. Now, one would on its surface think that it is because those churches are less susceptible to the message of "inclusiveness." That may be true, but there is another underlying reason as well, I think.

The mainline Protestant denominations, as well as the Roman Catholics, own a great deal of real estate and have fairly large bank accounts. The real estate (in Manhattan and Boston and other large cities across this nation) is owned by the denomination, not the individual congregation, and is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. An entire Episcopal congregation who wishes to split from the church and go independent must LEAVE the building, abandoning it to the gay-friendly people. This holds true for the Methodists as well, and I believe for the rest of the mainline denominations and the Roman Catholics.

On the other hand, most Southern Baptist congregations own their property individually. They can withdraw without losing the building, nor would they lose control of their bank accounts.

It seems to me that this is a concerted effort to not only shape public opinion but, more importantly, to control real estate and money. Money is used to sway political beliefs, push certain social issues, and shape public discourse.

If I wanted to control a lot of real estate and church bank accounts, so that the money could go to causes I believed in but were not supported by most of the congregants, I would choose to infiltrate the church with people whose presence would FORCE OUT those who have less radical views, and I would also be forcing them to leave the very expensive real estate, bank accounts, and endowments behind. I could then funnel money to groups like anti-war organizations without any objection.

It seems to me that there is a plan afoot to rob people who have donated their time and treasure (in some families' cases, for generations) to a congregation and church building, and secure the land and money for their own purposes.

In other words, this is about money as much as sex. Otherwise, why wouldn't these people simply start their OWN churches? I have not forgotten how once before we were distracted from the real evil by a story about sex.

They don't want to start their own churches, because they want the land, the buildings, and the money. I think this needs to be looked at with more attention to the financial side.

I also would like to point out that manay mainline churches also control large universities, and this also supports my theory that the issue is financial and political control, not simply sex.

Let us not forget that Satan comes as a thief in the night.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: acceptance; episcopal; gay; gays; homosexual; homosexualagenda; landgrab; leftists; lesbian; money; power; queer
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To: windcliff
TFTF.

Homosexuals do not build civilization.

121 posted on 08/06/2003 8:43:26 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: AppyPappy
>>>>>>>Nor does it mean that race has anything to do with serial killing just like religion has nothing to do with Hollywood.<<<<<

Fair assessment. No different really than others on this site who bash Catholics because a small percentage of priests happen to think it is acceptable to fondle little kids. As for me being a StormFront follower....forget it. I work with many wonderful Jewish people in my office....people who are far more decent than many others I work with. My point was, as I said, lost in a digression that you picked up on and was unfairly broad. I see the homosexual agenda being pushed by unwitting partners.

122 posted on 08/06/2003 8:43:56 AM PDT by irish guard
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To: Miss Marple
Well, as a last resort people should leave. But my point is this: doing so leaves those people with more funds to promote their evil deeds further.

This is true, but staying may mean compromising your witness by stifling your good deeds. Consider: liberals never take over a denomination and raise it to new heights of evangelism, discipleship, and acts of service. They take it over and run it into the ground. The EC has been losing members for decades. It's budgets will continue to shrink and the faithful will find churches where they can be reasonably assured that the ministers believe the Bible.

123 posted on 08/06/2003 8:44:06 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: Huck
Look around, Huck for an independent church. Our neighborhood has a "Cowboy Church." We can attend in muddy boots, and sometimes do. One independent nondenominational church over in Dallas is big enough and rich enough for anyone. Three-thousand attend most Sundays and recently the pastor drove an Abrams tank on stage to make a point about the war in Iraq. Suffice it to say--we do things different and "big" in Texas--not to mention, that "jihad" isn't the exclusive domain of Islamist! When Bush said recently, Bring 'em on?" in response to terrorist threats, I thought I was in our little cowboy church.
124 posted on 08/06/2003 8:46:20 AM PDT by texaslil
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To: Huck
Lutheran Missouri Synod churches are often faithful, I am told. If you are willing to go non-liturgical, Bile Churhes or Southern Baptist Churches are excellent keepers of doctrine, and places of great faith.
125 posted on 08/06/2003 8:49:09 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: texaslil
Thanks. I'll do that.
126 posted on 08/06/2003 8:51:11 AM PDT by Huck
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To: Miss Marple
Excellent observation, and I think you may well be on to something. A very close friend of mine is an Episcopal priest, and he is seething at the decision of the Church over this. I think your scenario is perfectly within reason.

I grew up Southern Baptist, and my wife Methodist. I've stated several times that I had some strong disagreements with the ruling class of the Methodist church, and I don't want any of our money going to anything but specific missions, and to be controlled only by our local church. The Methodist Church has politicized itself, and it has politiced itself with liberal seeding. The day is coming when I lay the law down and tell her we will have nothing else to do with the Methodist church.

127 posted on 08/06/2003 8:51:37 AM PDT by Space Wrangler (Now I know what it's like washing windows when you know that there are pigeons on the roof...)
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To: All
There has been a long and often close relationship between
the Anglican and Catholic Churches. In certain situations
there remains a mutual recognition of the validity of key
doctrines, liturgies, and practices. And the Catholic
Church continues to hold the faith and moral teachings as
taught by the Apostles.

I understand that there is also an Anglican Use liturgy
within the Catholic Church, wherein the Book of Common Prayer
(with minor updates) is used for the Mass. So there is no need
to lose the liturgy Anglicans are familiar with.
This Mass is valid for all Catholics as well.

Resources for those interested in the Catholic faith:

Catholic Answers
www.catholic.com
A superb site for clearing away the myths propagated by too many.
Offers free on-line library that examines all the major issues,
free on-line archive of over 1,500 hours of radio/audio material,
plus magazines, books, pamphlets, tracts, videos, and more.

Coming Home Network
www.chnetwork.org
Provides fellowship, encouragement and support for Protestant
pastors and laymen who are somewhere along the journey or
have already been received into the Catholic Church.

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism
www.biblicalcatholic.com
Dave Armstrong's monster site. Eclectic, fun, exhaustingly
detailed, personal, moving, and more.

May the Word be a lamp unto your feet and a light unto your path.
128 posted on 08/06/2003 8:51:38 AM PDT by polemikos (Ecce Agnus Dei)
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To: Miss Marple
I think you are correct. Homosexual activists move in to organizations already created, churches, schools, boy scouts, government agencies, private businesses, and destroy them from the inside out.
129 posted on 08/06/2003 8:54:38 AM PDT by ethical
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To: Miss Marple
"They are a vocal and creative arm of the leftist movement."

I agree. The left has been chipping away, bit by bit, at America's morals and ideals for decades. Get rid of the family as the cornerstone of our society, remove every sin but that of intolerance, make patriotism a hate crime. There is much more, but you get the picture.

Look at what the leftists have already accomplished.
130 posted on 08/06/2003 8:57:12 AM PDT by Darnright
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To: TexanToTheCore
Yes! Now if we could jsut fix the BGCT...I fear that they are compromising and are mvoing left.
131 posted on 08/06/2003 9:01:17 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: ethical
I think homosexuals are one arm of a larger effort. Universities have been easily infiltrated by leftists in general, but not necessarily gays, although they are sympathetic to the gay movement.

What is happening is that different institutions are being infiltrated by those who would do them the most harm. In churches and in the Boy Scouts, it is homosexuals. In Hollywood it is primarily those who promote free sex, violence, and anti-Americanism.

All of these groups work together. When the Episcopals become sufficently controlled by these groups, funding of outreach will go to peace movements, gays, environmental causes, etc. None will go to unwed mothers homes, Right to Life, or organizations which promote marriage. They will have appropriated the money for their own purposes.

I am concerned about this because I think a good discussion of this is a tool to enable us to take back these institutions. We need to start asking up front why they want the money. They need to be put on the defensive about this, because they portray themselves as meek victims and us as intolerant. If they can be shown to be grasping, greedy sorts who are simply after worldly wealth (such as the Methodist Church's investments in K-Mart and such) perhaps they will lose some of their clout and we would have a better chance of reclaiming the church.

132 posted on 08/06/2003 9:03:44 AM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: Terriergal
agreed
133 posted on 08/06/2003 9:04:26 AM PDT by the-ironically-named-proverbs2
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To: Darnright
"Get rid of the family as the cornerstone of our society,"

In post 119 I was getting to that point you said it correctly.

My wife and I were in an Episcopal summer camp for 17 years -- every summer. I always took my vacation during camp and we were the adult leaders. We witnessed a steady decline in religion taught at camp replaced by socialism and Democrat politics.

It is events like this that the Gays want to infiltrate and not the buildings and property.
134 posted on 08/06/2003 9:04:33 AM PDT by BeAllYouCanBe (Maybe this "Army Of One" is a good thing - You Gotta Admire the 3rd Infantry Accomplishments)
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To: BeAllYouCanBe
From where I sat these people were coming from all over the US and they would infiltrate a local church and then move on after recruiting local gays in high enough numbers.

Not out of the realm of possibility. What a terrible shame that you had to go through that. I hope that you found another fellowship where the Bible is preached and the hearts are turned towards God.

135 posted on 08/06/2003 9:04:41 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: sinkspur
The answer is not money or real estate!

The whole thing comes down to the fact that mankind is basically rebellious to God and it's only through acceptance of Christ, death to self, and regeneration of the Holy Spirit that one can be born again and live in a way that pleases God.

And since man has a need and longing for God, you have a contingent of folks (the homosexual crowd) who want to do their own thing but still want God (in some form) in their lives. This is fence sitting to the Max (a pick-and-chose religion).

And because some/too many denominations are not firmly rooted in the Bible that has left them open to the culture to 'shape' them.

It's a case of people wanting to continue to sin and wanting to have it be approved of (just to make em feel good... i.e. they are redefining 'sin'). And they're just choosing the path of least resistance to do so (er at least it appears that way).

136 posted on 08/06/2003 9:08:55 AM PDT by blue jeans
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To: Miss Marple
All of these groups work together. When the Episcopals become sufficently controlled by these groups, funding of outreach will go to peace movements, gays, environmental causes, etc. None will go to unwed mothers homes, Right to Life, or organizations which promote marriage. They will have appropriated the money for their own purposes.

Exactly. Follow the money. Also, think about it this way: if you were a leftist determined to corrupt society and destroy traditionalism/Christian culture, what institution would you seek to take over. A universtiy, certainly. That is where the next generation of leaders are taught.

But of course you wouldn't bother taking over the Engineering Dept. or a school of hard sciences. There is no agenda there. You must find the place where Truth is taught with a capital "T". You take over English Lit. Depts., Sociology, Psychology and...Seminaries! The biggest plum of all.

Take over a seminary, and within a generation the results can be seen in culture. The pastors and ministers turned out from the corrupt institution will be turned loose on an unsuspecting flock. The flock will be well-trained in the leftist worldview. You will have corrupted a denomination from the inside out.

137 posted on 08/06/2003 9:12:04 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: blue jeans
I can see your point, but how do you acount for those in powerful positions in the church who now openly discuss their disbelief in the virgin birth, the resurrection, and foundational doctrine such as that? I do not think those people are wanting God's approval. I thnk they are simply interested in power and money, as well as destroying other people's faith in Scripture so that they can be more easily manipulated.
138 posted on 08/06/2003 9:12:51 AM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: Zack Nguyen
"I hope that you found another fellowship where the Bible is preached"

It seems that my wife and I are now on a journey and we are not sure where it will end.

We attended several Anglican (break-away Episcopal churches) but found them to be spiritually dead. There is a group called the AMIA which is trying to be Anglican and replace the Episcopal Church and it is lead by African and Asian Bishops. Sadly we found the AMIA lacking and "shell-shocked" from spiritual warfare.
139 posted on 08/06/2003 9:13:14 AM PDT by BeAllYouCanBe (Maybe this "Army Of One" is a good thing - You Gotta Admire the 3rd Infantry Accomplishments)
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To: Miss Marple
Excellent post Jane!!!

I think you are definitely on to something here.

As an aside, a friend of mine continually ponders the following:

"I wish they'd stop calling themselves "gay", because they are constantly complaining or griping about one "in-justice" or another.
140 posted on 08/06/2003 9:14:00 AM PDT by Neets
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