Ultimate insult for American programmers as employers seek cheaper labor

modesto bee ^ | 8-11-03 | Rachel Konrad

[hoosierskypilot]

SAN JOSE, Calif. (AP) - Scott Kirwin clung to his job at a large investment bank through several rounds of layoffs last year. Friends marveled at the computer programmer's ability to dodge pink slips during the worst technology downturn in a decade. But it was tough for Kirwin, 36, to relish his final assignment: training a group of programmers from India who would replace him within a year.

[Mr. Bird]

An employer who is hiring H1-B's for positions in which there is an ample supply of citizen talent is breaking the law. I've read a lot of posts about people being "personally" "replaced" by an H1-B. If that's true, you have a legitimate lawsuit on your hands, either for personal gain or simple revenge.

But I never read posts about such actions, or read about them in the paper. It must be a conspiracy.

[clamper1797]

Sun Microsystems is being sued for H1B violations right now

[clamper1797]

I've read a lot of posts about people being "personally" "replaced" by an H1-B

and so you think we are all lying about it ????

[Mr. Bird]

That's great! Did individual employees/candidates file the suits, or did the government go after them?

[clamper1797]

Not sure ... I do know it for sure though ... it was posted out here a few months ago and I read it in the Merky News. I believe it was some former employees though.My brothers girl friend was an HR VP for them ... I could ask her.

[Mr. Bird]

and so you think we are all lying about it

NO! But everything I read here leads me to believe the incidence of violations is through the roof, but no one is getting busted for it. I have hired H1-B's in the past (non-IT positions), and I followed both the spirit and the letter of the law. I would have no problem with violating companies being brought to their knees.

[RightWhale]

On the one hand it seems like an immoral practice for a company to force workers to train replacements. On the other hand, workers in IT have a reputation for jumping ship often and frequently for higher-paying jobs.

Here's a typical story: A worker was at a company making X dollars per hour. He took a new job at a new company for X + 1 dollars per hour. 8 months later his new job was deleted from the org chart and the worker went back to his old company to get his old job back, but the job was, of course, taken, so now instead of having two jobs to choose from, the worker has no job to choose from. Whose fault? Do Americans have a natural born right to a job even after showing zero loyalty?

[clamper1797]

Thanks ... I have seen you post and wasn't sure if you were one of the free traitors or not ... seems that you're not. It's hard to sue a company in high tech. I'm in what is called EDA .... and though there are a several hundred of us in the field, it's really more close knit than one would think. Word such as suing a company gets around. Chances are ... win or lose ... that the person who sues a company will never get a job in EDA again.

[clamper1797]

Do Americans have a natural born right to a job even after showing zero loyalty?

Americans DO NOT have a right to a job BUT they DO have a right to keep foreign nationals out of our country. Contrary to what"free traitors" and some Libertarians say ... we do not and should not have completely open borders

[Alouette]

My contract ended last week, so I'm another displaced IT worker hustling for another job.

So far, I have had two job interviews last week and two more scheduled for this week. I have also submitted my resume at http://www.usajobs.com where U.S. citizens ONLY can apply.

I also reformatted my resume so that it's easier to read. On the first page I have a list of all my skills, divided into categories: software, hardware, operating systems, languages. I have also bolded the skills in the "experience" section so that, if they get past first page, they see exactly how I acquired and used those skills.

Oh yes, and I pray every day that G-D will provide for my family and not allow us to become destitute.

[Mr. Bird]

I have seen you post and wasn't sure if you were one of the free traitors or not ... seems that you're not

You should probably withhold that judgement, at least based on the flames I've taken in the past. I am a free trade proponent, generally, and am against (again, generally) protectionist tariffs. I'm sensitive to the labor issues, but haven't been pulled over to the other side (yours, I assume) yet.

[Yeti]

I was just thinking to myself this morning that I hope every one of you IT guys that's lives are being turned upside down defaults on your student loans.

They did this to EE's in the early nineties.

There is no satisfaction to be had from the student loan default, as they garnish your taxes refunds and wages(if necessary) to get it back, with penalties and interest.

[toothless]

"Perhaps Dundas in a member of that organization which believes its OK to lie as long as it advances the cause of your group or a member of your group."

Democrats? haha, I kill me.

[RightWhale]

we do not and should not have completely open borders

I used to think the gov't was to protect us and guide the economy, to govern. But it turned out to be a little different. The gov't protects the country as a whole and if somebody finds they have a good deal one year and next year gets dumped out on their head, well that goes on all the time. The individual citizens have recourse. In our system recourse takes the form of personal rights to make claim against the gov't.

The gov't is not beneficent. The gov't is supremely indifferent.

[clamper1797]

Oh yes, and I pray every day that G-D will provide for my family and not allow us to become destitute.

I was out over nine months last year .. I went completely thru my savings but I was able to save my house but it was close ... way to close. I now have a job that is remotely related to my expertise (ASIC design) it pays a lot less but it makes the mortgage. I thank GOD every single day for this job as I have a LOT of friends who not as lucky. I pray for you too as I know the pain and frustration that you are going thru. One has to live thru it to appreciate it ... that's one of the reasons why I get so angry at the free traitors. They would subject good honest hard working Americans to this just to make an easy buck ... without ANY loyalty to their fellow American and then they try to justify it by calling it "free trade" or "capitalism" ...

[clamper1797]

but haven't been pulled over to the other side (yours, I assume) yet.

The point is that you are considering and examining "our" side which ... at least in my eyes ... puts you out of the "free traitor" ranks

[Alouette]

The longest I was ever out of work was from 1992-1995 after being laid off from GM during what could only be described as "the night of the long knives." They started from the top, kicked out the CEO (Roger Smith) and worked their way down.

Guess under whose administration that massacre took place?

One more thing, I always write a thank-you letter to the interviewer and the recruiter and send it by snail mail. Sending resumes by snail mail or fax is also likely to get more attention than an email response to a listing on Monster or one of those other job boards.

[Dominic Harr]

Personal opinion:

This will all stop as soon as someone in the media starts writing about the failure rates being experienced.

The cause of all this is Dilbert pointy-haired managers believing what is written by reporters. The reporters write in glowing terms about off-shoring, without once anywhere mentioning that it's failing everywhere it's tried.

Consider: in the recent past, these same folks told us

• The internet bubble was real, and everyone could make an easy fortune on the net.
• The Y2k threat was real, and everyone could make an easy fortune fixing the problem.
• And now, off-shoring savings are real, and everyone can make a fortune off-shoring.

It's a lie. And if you want it to end, just get some reporter somewhere to do an expose.

Just look at the success rates of off-shoring. It's dramatic. In our case, we haven't been able to find one single success story!

[clamper1797]

I don't know about the software jobs posted on Monster BUT I do know that most of the hardware jobs listed on it are BOGUS. How do I know ...cause I interviewed for them over 18 months ago and so have several of my VERY well qualified friends. Had those jobs been for real, they would have filled the first few days ... but here we are 19 months later and those ads are still there ... example ... all the NVIDIA ads have been there since Jan 2001.

[american spirit]

After seeing a lot of these posts I'm starting to smell the stench of yet another fedgov "program" that somehow rewards companies for doing all this offshoring similar to US AID and OPIC which actually provides $$ to companies seeking to move mfg. operations overseas. Anyone else getting the same sort of odious whiff of another American sellout program?