Hyped Story Of Lynch's Capture Covers Officer's Incompetence, Vets Say

St. Louis Post-Dispatch | August 9, 2003 | By Harry Levins

[Iwo Jima]

Yes, Mohammed the lawyer said that he saw an Iraqi soldier slap Pfc Lynch. That is certainly mistreatment, probably not torture, certainly not torture that caused her injuries. That slap as it turns out was very fortunate for Lynch as it spurred Mohammed to brave the perils that he did to get her help.

I don't know how the soldiers whose bodies were found at the hospital died. Probably some died of gunshot wounds and other injuries sustained in the initial fight, and some died of those wounds after capture. Whether anyone was executed is impossible to say based on known facts. I would certainly want to know if that were the case, as we would definitely need to exact revenge for such a barbaric act. But to date, we have no basis to conclude that they were even beaten much less executed.

As to beating, yes, that's mistreatment and maybe torture in the strict meaning of the term. But a certain amount of beating unfortunately seems to come with the territory of being a POW. In any event, when we are trying to determine what is appropriate retaliatory action, I would put a beating immediately after capture by the forces who captured you in the heat of battle or its immediate aftermath as very different from cold and caluculated torture by "experts" long after passions had faded.

My point remains that your desire to get your jollies from speculation without any evidence about what more Pfc Lynch endured than is known is offensive and disrespectful. Let this young woman alone, and stop using her for your own selfish purposes. You'll have plenty of time to cackle over her misfortune if she or any other knowledgable person makes statements to that effect.

[ampat]

Sometimes true.

[nyconse]

Well, If an American soldier beat an Iraqi, it would be considered torture and most likely he would be prosecuted. Beatings kill people and to dismiss them as "heat of the battle" acts is ludicrous. As for the soldiers at the hospital, it is a far more likely scenario that they were executed than the Iraqis gathered up dead bodies and wounded and carted them off to the hospital- why would they? Also, none (according to reports by Iraqis Doctors) were treated at this hospital. In fact, didn't we see the bodies of different soldiers who certainly appeared to be executed? I saw them on the internet and on television.

I do hope Jessica writes a thank you note to the Iraqi soldier who was slapping her around-she was so.. fortunate. Lets see, she has severe spinal injuries (broken back?), broken legs and other horrific injuries-no doubt she was in horrible pain. This sadistic monster goes in a slaps a greviously wounded, helpless soldier. Wow, I hope I am never that "fortunate". You may not consider this torture, but I do.

As for getting my "jollies", that is ridiculous. It has long been speculated on this forum and others that JL was severely beaten and raped-perhaps her injuries were the result of the humvee crash or not. We don't know. There is no reason when I hear reports from military people that I know that I can not repeat such information on FR-I never claimed evidence and repeatedly said the reports were anecdotal. So please climb off your high horse and stop telling people what is appropriate to discuss on this forum and what is not. That's what we have moderaters for.

[ampat]

I believe there is evidence of rape in the first Gulf war, but I don't know where. I'm sure there is lots of pressure from various areas not to disclose rapes if true.

[r9etb]

Hard to argue with what these guys say.

Maybe, maybe not.

All I see is three retired guys running to the press to offer their opinion on something of which they have no first-hand knowledge. At least Hackworth gets paid for such shenanigans....

[ampat]

Right. The Commander is ultimately responsible, but what about the NCO's. Seems to me they should have been causing weapons maintenance to happen without any direct orders from their CO.

[Fred Mertz]

Does anyone have a link to this article?

[XJarhead]

Kennedy blamed what he called "a major cultural divide between the combat arms and those of support soldiers. It's almost as if we're in different armies. And the 507th is part of this non-combat arms culture. There's a lot of tough talk but an underlying softness. They take pride in living in tents or trucks and not being fighters." Kennedy added, "I think the pervasive number of females has made this even worse in the last 25 years.

Horribly politically incorrect, but sadly true. In fact, the rationale that bars females from combat position but permits them in support positions verifies the idea that support troops are not supposed to be fighters.

This Capt.is an incompetant jackass. I have Lance Corporals that could do a better job as a convoy commander.

That's because even though the Corps' support folk are REMFS themselves, they're still trained to be Marines, and all of their officers had fairly extensive infantry training. I'm not making excuses for that Army O-3, but how much combat training did he really get? The Army has not equivalent of TBS, and it shows when crap like this happens.

The jammed weapons are a real red flag, although there is some slight slack to be cut for a sandstorm screwing with the weapons. Still, you test fire every damn one before you get in that convoy, and you keept them as clean as possible. That is truly a woeful command failure.

[flyer182]

It would be hard to remember any of that as Chesty Puller was not in charge of the 1st Marine Division. Were you making a joke? If not your grasp of history is lacking. Try reading about the Armies performance at Chosin in a book titled "East of Chosin".

[weegee]

Three old soldiers say the hoopla over Pfc. Jessica Lynch has drowned out a darker story - that her company commander foolishly put Lynch and her comrades in harm's way.

Wasn't there some discussion of JFK and his heroism on the PT-109 giving the same questioning?

[nyconse]

I find this quote particularly offensive:

"Morelock's final words targeted the Army itself: To refer to this combat action as 'a tragedy' - an 'event' in which the convoy seemingly just happened to find itself - is nonsense. Dismissing the whole thing by claiming that 'all served nobly' and then throwing medals at them is an insult to the soldiers who died and ought to be an embarrassment to the survivors."

How can anyone read this quote and not realize-this article is a direct attack on our military? I think Morelock has more to be "embarassed" about then our soldiers: to denigrate our dead and wounded soldiers like this is well.......disgusting. I can imagine how I would feel if I had lost a loved one-a soldier in the war-and some idiot informed me my loved one did not deserve his/her medal. Maybe Morelock thinks the grieving families should give back the flags that were used to cover the coffins of our brave men and women who died serving their country. Perhaps, the families of the dead and an "embarrased" JL should throw their medals away (or fake it) like John Kerry did? This guy is a politically motivated POS.

[weegee]

Yes, surviving the ordeal is admirable, but not heroic. If it had been Joe Lynch, this would not have hardly made the news.

The public wouldn't be considering the possibility that Joe Lynch had been raped.

[Destro]

Thank you for your well worded and correctly thought out post.

[mark502inf]

Also, to name Capt. King-with limited evidence-is sickening

What is missing is CPT King's version of events--was he lost or was he following the wrong route? Why did he leave his company behind? etc?

(your weapon can get quite dirty during a sand storm-or so I have been informed).

This action did not take place during a sandstorm. Keeping weapons ready to fire is basic soldiering--when they get dirty, you clean them as first order of business. When you think you need to fire them, you clean them again to make sure--test fire if you can, etc.

Also, as a Marine, you are taught the primary duty of any solider in this situation is to evade capture and if captured to escape. Capt. Kelly may have been evading capture and not abandoning his soldiers as this article implies which is his sworn duty- who knows?

A unit commander in combat has two primary duties, neither of which involves escaping or their personal safety. Number 1 is to accomplish the mission and number 2 is to take care of your soldiers.

Perhaps King thought the rest of the company was right behind him. Maybe he thought he could get help and return. Maybe he thought they were all already dead. Maybe he panicked and bugged out. Bottom line, the Army will do its best to figure out if King was or was not doing his duty and take action accordingly.

[Destro]

Court martials instead of medals was warrented for the massive amount of m-16 jamming failures.

[nyconse]

They got lost during a sandstorm according to reports... Also, Kelly was faced with an impossible situation. He is not supposed to allow himself or his soldiers to be captured -if he can prevent it; I don't know what Kelly did or didn't do- nor what motivated him. He can not speak out as a current member of the military-especially if an investigation is taking place. This is why to name him when he can not defend himself (in what is essentially a hit piece) is unfair.

[nyconse]

How do you court martial the dead?

[Destro]

They all died. Court martial is too strong a word. Disciplinary procedures are called for though.

[jaykay]

last Saturday I saw Stone Phillips on Dateline interview at great length the survivors of the 507th, including the black woman whose name escapes me (Shoshana Johnson?). They described how Lynch, Lori Piesterwa (sp?), and two others were involved in a crushing Humvee accident. Piesterwa was driving and Lynch was sitting next to her. Going full speed, they hit the vehicle in front of them which had come to a complete stop. The soldiers being interviewed told how they had gone to check on the soldiers in the crashed Humvee and were certain that all of them were dead. Only Lynch was still moving, and that was only a twitching of one foot, which the soldiers thought was just a post-mortem muscular reaction. When they later learned that Lynch had survived, they were -- to put it mildly -- astonished and overjoyed. More was said in that interview and in the official reports, but ABSOLUTELY NOTHING has been suggested which would support your rank speculation of rape or torture of anyone, and especially not Lynch. Some POWs have reported that they were beat up immediately after being captured, but that's about it.

If you watched all of that Dateline interview, you also saw the group shut Pfc. Patrick Miller up quickly when he began to talk about what the Iraqis did to him after his capture, so the former POWs were clearly under orders to not say certain things. Pfc. Lynch was unconsious when they saw her in the humvee, but she must have regained consiousness before her capture, because this Newsweek article reports that "NEWSWEEK has learned, however, that U.S. military intelligence officers believe Lynch's injuries were inflicted after she and other survivors surrendered. "This poor girl," said one Special Forces captain involved in her rescue. He's among three military intelligence sources who say she was standing when she surrendered, and had minor injuries at most. That was confirmed by Mehdi Kafaji, the Iraqi orthopedic surgeon who was in charge of her treatment at the hospital in An Nasiriya. "She had blunt-force trauma not consistent with what you'd expect from a car accident," Kafaji says. He adds that there was no sign of bullet wounds on her body, and her injuries appeared to have been inflicted by a severe beating, probably with numerous rifle butts. Her Fedayeen captors then took her to An Nasiriya's Saddam General Hospital. She told doctors she had not been sexually assaulted." At least she wasn't raped, at least as far as she can remember, but she was beaten so severely that after 4 months in a world class hospital she is still confined to a wheelchair. I would call that torture. As far as the witness seeing her slapped around by one of her captors it would be asking a lot of coincidence to assume that when he happened to be looking was the first and only time they were slapping her around, so it is safe to assume that after being beaten to the point that she had multiple broken bones, she was subjected to frequent minor (by comparison) beatings while in that hospital.

[nyconse]

What kind of person judges American soldiers who gave their last full measure.....in service to their country? Maybe, we could slip a disciplinary letter in their obituaries. Just a thought....