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Is banning the Bible next?
Jerusalem Post ^ | Aug. 13, 2003 | Mark Steyn

Posted on 08/13/2003 5:44:16 AM PDT by yonif

If you live pretty much anywhere in the Western world these days, you'll notice a certain kind of news item cropping up with quiet regularity. The Irish Times had one last week.

As Liam Reid reported, the Irish Council for Civil Liberties has warned Catholic bishops that distributing the Vatican's latest statement on homosexuality could lead to prosecution under the 1989 Incitement to Hatred Act, and a six-month jail term.

"The document itself may not violate the Act, but if you were to use the document to say that gays are evil, it is likely to give rise to hatred, which is against the Act," says Aisling Reidy, director of the ICCL. "The wording is very strong and certainly goes against the spirit of the legislation."

No Irish bishop has actually called gays evil yet. But best to be on the safe side and shut down all debate.

From Dublin, let us zip 6,000 miles to Quesnel, a small paper-mill town in British Columbia. Chris Kempling is a high-school teacher and a Christian conservative and he likes writing letters to his local newspaper. In one of them he said that "homosexuality is not something to be applauded."

The regulatory body for his profession, the British Columbia College of Teachers, suspended him for a month without pay for "conduct unbecoming a member of the college."

No student, parent or fellow teacher at Correlieu Secondary School has ever complained about Mr. Kempling: he was punished by the BCCT for expressing an opinion in the paper. The British Columbia Civil Liberties Association supported the suspension, not because of anything he's done but because of what he might do in the future. He might discriminate against gay and lesbian students in the future. He hasn't done so yet, but, if we don't preemptively punish him now, he might well commit a hate crime somewhere down the road.

He didn't say gays are evil. But he did say homosexuality wasn't something to be applauded. And, if we start letting people decide who they are and aren't going to applaud, there's no telling where it will end. As in Dublin, best to be on the safe side and shut down all debate.

In Sweden, meanwhile, they've passed a constitutional amendment making criticism of homosexuality a crime, punishable by up to four years in jail. Expressing a moral objection to homosexuality is illegal, even on religious grounds, even in church. Those preachers may not be talking about how gays are evil this Sunday. But they might do next week, or next month. As in Ireland and British Columbia, best to be on the safe side and shut down all debate.

Anyone sense a trend here? Even in America, where the First Amendment (on freedom of expression) still just about trumps "hate crimes" law, you can see where things are headed.

A FEW weeks back, the Senate Judiciary Committee interrogated William Pryor, attorney-general of Alabama and President George W. Bush's nominee to the Circuit Court of Appeals. As part of an exhaustive effort to establish Pryor's unfitness for office, the Democrats delved into his history of homophobic vacationing.

Was it true, demanded Senator Russ Feingold, that "you even went so far as to reschedule a family vacation at Disney World in order to avoid Gay Day?" Gay Day is an annual event at Disney, and Pryor is a practicing Catholic.

Yes, he even went so far! "My wife and I had two daughters, who at the time of that vacation were six and four," replied Pryor.

"But are you saying," gasped Senator Feingold in mock astonishment, "that you actually made that decision on purpose to be away at the time of that?" He actually did! "We made a value judgment and changed our plan and went another weekend."

"Well, I appreciate your candor on that," said Feingold, like Perry Mason on cross-examination, after artfully trapping the witness into an irreparably damaging admission.

Gay Day has its sweet side - Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck walk around holding hands, and so do Minnie and Daisy. I always figured Mickey was gay anyway. But the photographic souvenirs of the day unearthed by National Review also included a man quaffing on a beer bottle rising out from the unzipped pants of another chap. I wouldn't advise any young lady visitor to Disney to try that with her boyfriend: The park is very rigorously policed the other 364 days of the year.

But the disinclination of a devout Catholic to expose his four-year-old to the delights of Gay Day now renders one unfit for public office. Which exactly is the love that dare not speak its name here?

Pryor hasn't made any anti-gay rulings, but he might do one day, if we allow him to go around avoiding gay carousing on his vacations. Best to be on the safe side and vote him down now. And any other Catholics who still take that jazz seriously.

THIRTY YEARS ago, in the early days of gay liberation, most of us assumed we were being asked to live and let live. But throughout the Western world, tolerance has become remarkably intolerant, and diversity demands ruthless conformity. In New Zealand, an appeals court upheld a nationwide ban on importing a Christian video Gay Rights/Special Rights: Inside The Homosexual Agenda.

In Saskatchewan, The Saskatoon Star-Phoenix was fined by the Human Rights Commission for publishing an advertisement quoting biblical passages on homosexuality. Fining publishers of the Bible surely can't be far off. The coerciveness of the most "liberal" cultures in the Western world is not a pretty sight.

Whatever happened to "live and let live?" If I can live with the occasional rustle from the undergrowth as I'm strolling through a condom-strewn park or a come-hither look from George Michael in the men's room, why can't gays live with the occasional expression of disapproval?

Christian opponents of gay marriage oppose gay marriage, they don't oppose the right of gays to advocate it. But increasingly gays oppose the right of Christians to advocate their beliefs. Gay activists have figured that instead of trying to persuade people to change their opinions, it's easier just to get them banned.

As Rodney King, celebrated black victim of the LAPD, once plaintively said, "Why can't we all just get along?"

But, if that's not possible, why can't we all just not get along? What's so bad about disagreement that it needs to be turned into a crime?

The writer is senior contributing editor for Hollinger Inc.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; US: Wisconsin
KEYWORDS: antichristian; bible; billpryor; church; deathcultivation; endtimesbaby; gaydays; gays; god; homosexualagenda; homosexuality; incitementtohatred; judicialnominees; litmustest; marksteyn; marksteynlist; russfeingold; un; vatican
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1 posted on 08/13/2003 5:44:17 AM PDT by yonif
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To: yonif
Gays want Christians banned cause they would lose a real debate.
2 posted on 08/13/2003 5:48:06 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: yonif
God is watching. He will judge the sodomites.
3 posted on 08/13/2003 5:48:38 AM PDT by WestPacSailor (Remember Baron 52: Not all the POW/MIAs came home.)
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To: yonif
Steyn is great.

I maintain that some folks have been trying to destroy everything that they can for a long time. They used to call themselves Marxists. They used to believe that "class warfare" was a great weapon. But, nowadays, most people realize that they might get richer later -- or they might get poorer. So, class warfare will probably bite them at some point in life -- which is why most people do not approve of class warfare.

However, sexual warfare is much better. Not too many people change sides in that war (though some do). And if the minority view can triumph, it can cause serious damage to just about everything: marriage, faith, personal responsibility. All of that goes out the window if homosexuality becomes normalized.

So, the people who have been trying to destroy as much as they can (they've been at it since at least the French Revolution) are now putting all their efforts toward normalizing homosexuality.

4 posted on 08/13/2003 5:56:45 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (France delenda est)
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To: yonif
The Bible is already practically banded in many areas with
the advent of hundred's of so called newer and better
transactions. The Bible says that all Scripture was given
by Inspiration and I am sure that it was only done one time
by an all knowing God. Since 1881 many are taking part in so-called Bibles that change the Word of God to make it say what they believe, or seem to believe, is popular. God never changes, get to know Him, and ask Him for a Word of Wisdom and you won't go wrong.
5 posted on 08/13/2003 6:00:07 AM PDT by twowilliam (twowilliam)
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To: yonif
For those who think the abominable before a holy God is in any way acceptable...

Malachi Ch.2 Vv.1-4
And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.
If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.
And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

6 posted on 08/13/2003 6:02:25 AM PDT by azhenfud (For every government action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.)
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To: yonif
Banning the bible is already here, at least certain "offensive" passages, in some countries. This trend appears to be spreading. The next logical step is outlawing Christianity altogether, then martyrdom.
7 posted on 08/13/2003 6:12:25 AM PDT by Manic_Episode
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To: yonif
Revival happens when you have a a sawed-off shotgun in one hand and the bible in the other....
8 posted on 08/13/2003 6:17:36 AM PDT by Naspino
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To: yonif
IMHO, declaring "homosexuality is not something to be applauded" is in direct opposition to thinking being fomented. Quite simply, homosexuals have fewer offspring, and fewer offspring has become desired policy at every level of power, so homosexuality HAS BECOME something to be applauded as a matter of policy.

Contrary to popular thought, it's not just at the U.N., but that would-be world governing organizaztion has helped greatly in coercing negative population growth. Click on keyword or bumplist Death Cultivation for more info.

And don't be misled by being told that Malthusian thinking is allegedly discredited The concerns it posed are still taught in government schools. "Too many people, not enough resources."

Believers of the Bible pose a standing opposition to this thinking. "God will provide."

Of course the British Columbia College of Teachers found another excuse to condemn the teacher's published statement. The teacher wasn't innocent and found guilty of any crime. He wasn't innocent and found guilty of any crime he might commit. But he was guilty of advocating policy that runs contrary to policy. Whether or not negative population growth is a declared policy, that policy intruding on each human's choice for their posterity everywhere. And on even what they choice to say even though they don't know how what they said should raise such a ruckus.
9 posted on 08/13/2003 6:17:57 AM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla (You can't see where we're going when you don't look where we've been.)
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To: Avoiding_Sulla; *Death Cultivation
corrections to last paragraph of #9:

Of course the British Columbia College of Teachers found another excuse to condemn the teacher's published statement. The teacher wasn't innocent and found guilty of any crime. He wasn't innocent and found guilty of any crime he might commit. But he was guilty of advocating thinking that runs contrary to policy.

Whether or not negative population growth is a declared policy, that policy is intruding on each human's choice for their posterity everywhere. And on even what they choice to say even though they don't know how what they said should raise such a ruckus.

10 posted on 08/13/2003 6:27:52 AM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla (You can't see where we're going when you don't look where we've been.)
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To: Avoiding_Sulla
overlooked correction:


11 posted on 08/13/2003 6:30:28 AM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla (You can't see where we're going when you don't look where we've been.)
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To: yonif
The fall of the West??
12 posted on 08/13/2003 6:38:47 AM PDT by Cronos (Sanity and slam don't mix, consult your Imam...)
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To: yonif
I have a problem with the denial of rights to anyone because of what it says in the Bible; this is part of why we're at the point we are now with the gay issue. The other part of course is the gay/lesbian tendency toward extremism.
My embrace of the Bible means that I don't have to condone or approve of it on a personal level.
In my case, as an Episcopalian for most of my life, I now have to face the task of leaving my church, and my first question is Where? A schism would make that choice much easier.
My next question, as I see the attacks on religion in general from many fronts, is Do I need a church at all? Because the unchecked movement toward a Godless New World Order may soon mean that churches will be banned, as they were in the Soviet Union. It's hard to imagine an America where you have to hide your Bible and attend church underground with someone watching for prowling jack-booted ATF agents.
13 posted on 08/13/2003 6:41:28 AM PDT by Marauder (Throw the rascals out.)
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To: yonif
And now several justices on the SCOTUS have begun traveling overseas to talk to their counterparts as they feel foreign culture and norms are relevant to interpretations of US law. And I thought we fought a war to free ourselves of that control and influence. As Steyn points out, this juggernaut is still in it's infancy in the US; however, we need to go along to get along. This is going to get real ugly.
14 posted on 08/13/2003 6:45:09 AM PDT by bereanway
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To: bereanway
Yes, you are correct. The prospects are great that things will be getting really ugly.

Especially under cover of that new phrase "compelling state interests." You know the one. In the pursuit of "diversity" it was used in the Michigan Law School case to openly violate the 15th Ammendment.

That phrase may now be used to violate every aspect of the constitution. Unless Congress acts. Seen any activity of that nature?
15 posted on 08/13/2003 6:56:37 AM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla (You can't see where we're going when you don't look where we've been.)
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To: Manic_Episode
The next logical step is outlawing Christianity altogether, then martyrdom.

Bring it on.

16 posted on 08/13/2003 6:57:54 AM PDT by Skooz (Tagline removed by moderator)
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To: Skooz
Yup. I be ready.
17 posted on 08/13/2003 7:09:15 AM PDT by Manic_Episode (Animal rights activists can KMA)
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To: yonif
Forget being gainfully employed if anyone discovers that you believe in that silly faith of Christianity AND that you believe homosexuality is an abomination.

If you don't hold approved thoughts, and don't think the way you are told to think, then you are doomed to lead a difficult life in this world.

Sigh. What a world.

d
18 posted on 08/13/2003 7:10:42 AM PDT by dnandell ("you've heard of plato, aristotle, socretes?" "yes" "morons")
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To: yonif
"The document itself may not violate the [Incitement to Hatred] Act, but if you were to use the document to say that gays are evil, it is likely to give rise to hatred, which is against the Act," says Aisling Reidy, director of the ICCL.

If homos held a march in front of a Godly church, and heteros got mad about it, would the homos be arrested for incitement to hatred?
If someone gets mad about something, we all know we are supposed to stay in the law to get justice. Even if I make you mad, I cannot be held responsible for your subsequent actions.
WOW! Isn't that a hoot? Being held responsible for your own actions: "Yeah?! Well, he made me do it!"

The Bible says true Christians will be vilified in the end days. I just hope I'm around to see homos and their supporters get their come-uppance.
Oooops! Did I just a non-PC? Did I Incite to Hatred?

19 posted on 08/13/2003 7:21:12 AM PDT by jeffc
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To: dnandell
I remember reading a quote by some one-world-government, New Age, I'd-like-to-teach-the-world-to-sing type who said something to the order of: "Yes, Christians have a right to say those things, but they have no right to THINK those things."
20 posted on 08/13/2003 7:23:28 AM PDT by Skooz (Tagline removed by moderator)
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To: Avoiding_Sulla
Congress and the States don't seem to feel they have a dog in this fight which I don't understand. I would start to take it kind of personally if someone did to me what the Supremes have done to those two. Their roles are clearly being diminished by a group of unelected, unaccountable appointees who are only interested in their brand of social engineering.

I don't know if we will reach some breaking point or just continue quietly into the night. I would certainly hope it will be the former.
21 posted on 08/13/2003 7:26:58 AM PDT by bereanway
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To: yonif
INTSUM
22 posted on 08/13/2003 7:44:43 AM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: Skooz
I believe it. Thought is becoming regulated in our society. If people so much as assume they know what you're thinking, then watch out. Your threw.

Good luck to you in our wonderful world.

d
23 posted on 08/13/2003 7:45:03 AM PDT by dnandell ("you've heard of plato, aristotle, socretes?" "yes" "morons")
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To: Pokey78
Mark Steyn article ping
24 posted on 08/13/2003 7:57:10 AM PDT by Tares
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To: yonif
The homosexual agenda has never been about tolerance or "getting along." It's about forcing the nation to accept and celebrate homosexuality. And, the issue is being used by the left to repress free speech, erode freedom of association (Boy Scouts) and rights of parents to have a say in what their kids are taught in public school.
25 posted on 08/13/2003 8:15:25 AM PDT by Ol' Sparky
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To: Marauder
It's hard to imagine an America where you have to hide your Bible...

It all began with the notion of "hate crimes".....and not that many years ago. These new laws seemed innocuous enough at the beginning, didn't they?

26 posted on 08/13/2003 8:24:18 AM PDT by Republic If You Can Keep It
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To: bereanway
"Congress and the States don't seem to feel they have a dog in this fight which I don't understand. "


For one explanation, check this out:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/961394/posts?page=20#20
27 posted on 08/13/2003 8:58:59 AM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla (You can't see where we're going when you don't look where we've been.)
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To: yonif; *Homosexual Agenda; GrandMoM; backhoe; pram; Yehuda; Clint N. Suhks; saradippity; ...
Bump and ping again - the other post was a duplicate so it was removed.

Homosexual Agenda Index
Homosexual Agenda Keyword Search
All FreeRepublic Bump Lists

A simple freepmail is all it takes to subscribe or unsubscribe from my homosexual agenda ping list.

28 posted on 08/13/2003 10:16:43 AM PDT by scripter (Thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle.)
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To: scripter
Ping - duplicate thread was pulled



Choice4Truth

29 posted on 08/13/2003 10:18:19 AM PDT by EdReform (Support Free Republic - Become a Monthly Donor)
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To: yonif
Hate speech?


Leviticus 20:8-27 - You shall faithfully observe My laws: I the Lord make you holy. If anyone insults his father or his mother, he shall be put to death; he has insulted his father and his mother--his bloodguilt is upon him. If a man commits adultery with a married woman, committing adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death. If a man lies with his father's wife, it is the nakedness of his father that he has uncovered; the two shall be put to death--their bloodguilt is upon them. If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall be put to death; they have committed incest--their bloodguilt is upon them. If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death--their bloodguilt is upon them.
30 posted on 08/13/2003 10:21:58 AM PDT by Lexington Green
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Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

To: twowilliam
The Bible is already practically banded in many areas with the advent of hundred's of so called newer and better transactions.

Proof again that a spell checker is no cure for ignorance.

The Bible says that all Scripture was given by Inspiration and I am sure that it was only done one time by an all knowing God. Since 1881 many are taking part in so-called Bibles that change the Word of God to make it say what they believe, or seem to believe, is popular. God never changes, get to know Him, and ask Him for a Word of Wisdom and you won't go wrong.

How eager are people going to be to accept the advice of one who publically flaunts ignorance? Gentle hint: do some research before making broad assertions!

The miracle of the Bible is that it proclaims one message, of God's covenantal mercies, though given to us in 66 installments by men writing on three continents in three languages over the course of 1500 years. Sorry, but Elizabethean English was not one of those languages.

32 posted on 08/13/2003 10:30:40 AM PDT by TomSmedley ((technical writer looking for work!))
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To: yonif
"But are you saying," gasped Senator Feingold in mock astonishment, "that you actually made that decision on purpose to be away at the time of that?"

And how many supposedly decent people vote for Feingold?

Evil exists and wields such power because people want it to. They never seem to realize that what they are dabbling in will one day consume them.

33 posted on 08/13/2003 10:30:43 AM PDT by hopespringseternal
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To: Republic If You Can Keep It
Not to me, they didn't; I was vehemently opposed to them, and I'm still PO'd at Rick Perry (TX gov) for signing that last one.
But while we have a SCOTUS that considers the prevailing attitudes and laws in Europe and elsewhere when interpreting the Constitution, I don't look for these unequal protection edicts to be reversed anytime soon.
34 posted on 08/13/2003 10:34:06 AM PDT by Marauder (Throw the rascals out.)
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To: Tares; Howlin; riley1992; Miss Marple; deport; Dane; sinkspur; steve; kattracks; JohnHuang2; ...
Thanks Tares!


35 posted on 08/13/2003 10:35:24 AM PDT by Pokey78
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To: Lexington Green
Hate speech?

Leviticus 20:8-27 - You shall faithfully observe My laws: I the Lord make you holy. If anyone insults his father or his mother, he shall be put to death; he has insulted his father and his mother--his bloodguilt is upon him. If a man commits adultery with a married woman, committing adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death. If a man lies with his father's wife, it is the nakedness of his father that he has uncovered; the two shall be put to death--their bloodguilt is upon them. If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall be put to death; they have committed incest--their bloodguilt is upon them. If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death--their bloodguilt is upon them.

We fried the Rosenbergs for treason against a far less important sphere of government. They merely betrayed their nation. That's all. Adultery is treason against the family. Laws protect what a society values, by penalizing the foes of those values.

36 posted on 08/13/2003 10:35:51 AM PDT by TomSmedley ((technical writer looking for work!))
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To: yonif

THIRTY YEARS ago, in the early days of gay liberation, most of us assumed we were being asked to live and let live...

...Gay activists have figured that instead of trying to persuade people to change their opinions, it's easier just to get them banned.

As usual, when Steyn says it, there isn't much left to say!

37 posted on 08/13/2003 10:41:30 AM PDT by Gritty
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To: Trivista
>> ...But he was guilty of advocating thinking that runs contrary to policy...

> Sounds just like some posters on FR...

Ah, I see your point. Being banned from FR is on an equal footing with being suspended for a month without pay from your job in BC, seving a six-month jail term in Ireland, or up to four years in jail in Sweden.

Is it a safe bet one would be banned for merely writing that, oh say, "being a RINO is not something to be applauded?" ;-)

Well, welcome back whoever you were. Hope your stay is longer. < /presumptive mode >
38 posted on 08/13/2003 10:45:43 AM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla (You can't see where we're going when you don't look where we've been.)
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To: TomSmedley
Sorry, but Elizabethean English was not one of those languages.
So you're saying that the King James version is not the Textus Receptus? Whodathunkit?

39 posted on 08/13/2003 10:47:10 AM PDT by DallasMike
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To: TomSmedley
Sorry, but Elizabethean English was not one of those languages.
So you're saying that the King James version is not the Textus Receptus? Whodathunkit?

40 posted on 08/13/2003 10:47:11 AM PDT by DallasMike
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To: yonif
But, if that's not possible, why can't we all just not get along? What's so bad about disagreement that it needs to be turned into a crime?

Homosexuals are desperate to escape any reminder that there is a God that holds them accountable, and that they are destroying themselves by their behavior, physically and spiritually.

41 posted on 08/13/2003 10:49:31 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: yonif
THe abetors of the homosexuality agenda in Sweeden, seem to have stumbled upon the ultimate way of silencing opposition. Give them four years in prison to either learn to love adventures into perverted sex or shut up in fear of future forced treks into perversia.
42 posted on 08/13/2003 10:51:10 AM PDT by F.J. Mitchell (Our enemies within are very slick, but slime is always treacherously slick, isn't it?)
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To: Manic_Episode
Banning the bible is already here, at least certain "offensive" passages, in some countries. This trend appears to be spreading. The next logical step is outlawing Christianity altogether, then martyrdom.

7 posted on 08/13/2003 6:12 AM PDT by Manic_Episode

We have a whole group of these on the FR ... pampered too --- evolutionists !

43 posted on 08/13/2003 10:54:42 AM PDT by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: Skooz
Is it time yet to start stitching the battle flags?
44 posted on 08/13/2003 10:56:19 AM PDT by abishai
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To: yonif
But the photographic souvenirs of the day unearthed by National Review also included a man quaffing on a beer bottle rising out from the unzipped pants of another chap

Anyone have a link for these photos?

45 posted on 08/13/2003 11:00:56 AM PDT by montag813
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To: Marauder
My next question, as I see the attacks on religion in general from many fronts, is Do I need a church at all?

Yes! Whether church is banned or not makes no difference. God wants you to worship with fellow believers. You must be discipled.

46 posted on 08/13/2003 11:03:15 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: abishai
Naw. Just time to start memorizing Scripture. A subscription to Voice of the Martyrs magazine may be helpful, as well.
47 posted on 08/13/2003 11:03:49 AM PDT by Skooz (Tagline removed by moderator)
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To: yonif
THIRTY YEARS ago, in the early days of gay liberation, most of us assumed we were being asked to live and let live. But throughout the Western world, tolerance has become remarkably intolerant, and diversity demands ruthless conformity.

A brilliant summary.

48 posted on 08/13/2003 11:04:44 AM PDT by Snuffington
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To: yonif
"The writer is senior contributing editor for Hollinger Inc."

Wow! That's news to me. That's a big step up for young Mark.

Conrad Black is bringing him along - he'll be one of the greats of journalism.

49 posted on 08/13/2003 11:05:05 AM PDT by headsonpikes
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To: yonif
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." - John Adams, Oct. 11, 1798 Address to the military

"Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." - William Penn

"Good government generally begins in the family, and if the moral character of a people once degenerate, their political character must soon follow." - Elias Boudinot, president of the Continental Congress, later a congressman from NJ, and president of the American Bible Society
50 posted on 08/13/2003 11:08:46 AM PDT by hosepipe
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