Russian "Sunburn" anti-ship missle threat neutralized...

Multiple | 1stFreedom

[ko_kyi]

Have you seen the metalstorm technology? (www.metalstorm.com)

I thought when I saw it that the high rate of fire could make it useful for CIWS-like needs.

[Light Speed]

A serious concern if this platform is active..and if it can be dropped via air in stand-off launch.

Charles R. Smith
Tuesday, April 24, 2001

Russia has developed new submarine-launched torpedos that travel at incredible speeds – perhaps as fast as the speed of sound underwater.
Scientific American reports in its May edition that these supersophisticated weapons have been linked to the sinking of the Russian submarine Kursk last August, and even to the arrest and imprisonment of Edmond Pope.

Pope, an American businessman, was charged by Russian authorities with spying, specifically that he had sought to buy plans for the "ultrahigh-speed torpedo."

The magazine reports that "evidence does suggest that both incidents revolved around an amazing and little-reported technology that allows naval weapons and vessels to travel submerged at hundreds of miles per hour – in some cases, faster than the speed of sound in water. The swiftest traditional undersea technologies, in contrast, are limited to a maximum of about 80 mph."

The new technology that allows for these incredible speeds is "is based on the physical phenomenon of supercavitation."

According to Scientific American, the new generation of torpedos, some believed capabale of carrying nuclear warheads, are surrounded by a "renewable envelope of gas so that the liquid wets very little of the body's surface, thereby drastically reducing the viscous drag" on the torpedo.

The new technology "could mean a quantum leap in naval warfare that is analogous in some ways to the move from prop planes to jets or even to rockets and missiles."

In 1997 Russia announced that it had developed a high-speed unguided underwater torpedo, which has no equivalent in the West.

Code-named the Shkval or "Squall," the Russian torpedo reportedly travels so fast that no U.S. defense can stop it.

In late 2000, after the sinking of the Russian submarine Kursk, new reports began circulating that the Chinese navy had bought the Shkval torpedo.

The modern Russian weapon in Chinese navy hands has sent alarm bells ringing through the halls of the Pentagon.

"China purchased the Shkval rocket torpedo," stated Richard Fisher, a defense analyst and senior fellow at the Jamestown Foundation.

"The Shkval was designed to give Soviet subs with less capable sonar the ability to kill U.S. submarines before U.S. wire-guided anti-sub torpedoes could reach their target. The Chinese navy would certainly want to have this kind of advantage over U.S. subs in the future. At the speed that it travels, the Shkval could literally punch a hole in most U.S. ships, with little need for an explosive warhead."

"This torpedo travels at a speed of 200 knots, or five to six times the speed of a normal torpedo, and is especially suited for attacking large ships such as aircraft carriers," stated Fisher.

The report that China purchased some 40 Shkval torpedoes from Russia in 1998 has been confirmed by U.S. intelligence sources. Pentagon officials also confirmed that a Chinese naval officer was on board the ill-fated Russian submarine Kursk to observe firings of the Shkval.

The Shkval rocket first came to light in the Western press in April 2000 when Russian FSB security services charged American businessman Edward Pope with spying for the U.S. According to Russian intelligence sources, Pope obtained detailed information on the rocket-powered torpedo.

A FSB statement said it confiscated "technical drawings of various equipment, recordings of his conversations with Russian citizens relating to their work in the Russian defense industry, and receipts for American dollars received by them."

****The 6,000-pound Shkval rocket torpedo has a range of about 7,500 yards and can fly through the water at more than 230 miles an hour. The solid-rocket-propelled "torpedo" achieves this high speed by producing a high-pressure stream of bubbles from its nose and skin, which coats the weapon in a thin layer of gas. The Shkval flies underwater inside a giant "envelope" of gas bubbles in a process called "supercavitation."

The Russian Pacific Fleet held the first tests of the Shkval torpedo in the spring of 1998. In early 1999, Russia began marketing a conventionally armed version of the Shkval high-speed underwater rocket at the IDEX 99 exhibition in Abu Dhabi.

The Shkval is so fast that it is guided by an autopilot rather than by a homing head as on most torpedoes. The original Shkval was designed to carry a tactical nuclear warhead detonated by a simple timer clock. However, the Russians recently began advertising a homing version, which runs out at very high speed, then slows to search for its target.

There are no evident countermeasures to the Shkval and, according to weapons experts, its deployment by Russian and Chinese naval forces has placed the U.S. Navy at a considerable disadvantage.

"We have no equivalent, its velocity would make evasive action exceedingly difficult, and it is likely that we have no defense against it," stated Jack Spencer, a defense analyst at the Heritage Foundation.

According to the Jamestown Foundation's Richard Fisher, China is acquiring a fleet of blue-water submarines armed with the deadly Shkval. In a recent defense report, Fisher noted the Chinese navy is arming itself with a deadly combination of silent submarines, supersonic nuclear tipped Stealth missiles and Shkval rocket torpedoes. Fisher warned that the new Chinese navy is capable of operating far from Asian shores.

"There are reports that the Chinese navy's current subs do not have tubes large enough to fire the Shkval. The Chinese navy has completed the acquisition of four Russian Kilo-class conventional submarines. The Kilo 636 is said to be nearly as quiet as the early version of the U.S. Los Angeles class nuclear submarine," noted Fisher.

"This very high speed torpedo would provide the PLA with the technology to build their own version, and this is a looming threat," stated Fisher.

"The next few years may also see China produce a new class of nuclear-powered submarine, the Type 093. Again benefiting from Russian technology."

The Chinese Type 093-class nuclear attack submarines are similar to Russian Victor III class first produced at the Leningrad yards in the 1970s. Each Chinese Type 093 weighs more than 5,000 tons and is over a football field in length. The Chinese type 093 submarines are armed with eight 21-inch torpedo tubes that are large enough to fire the super-fast Shkval.

"The Type 093 is projected by the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence to have a performance similar to the Russian Victor-III nuclear attack submarine. By one estimate, four to six Type 093s should enter service by 2012," concluded Fisher.

[Dead Dog]

Excellent point. The Chicoms could care less about Taiwan. Like all other Socialists, they fight wars over the right to others labor. Socialism is Slavery.

[gcruse]

One of the problems with using the Phalanx to bring down the Sunburn is that the missile is coming so fast, even if you hit it, the pieces still arrive on the targer. You'd think that would be enough, but apparently the pieces constitute a serious threat, too.

[The Pheonix]

sure, especially, when they are fitted with small nuclear warheads...

and one web-site, claims that the Sunburn is capable of mach 4.5 !!!!! true or false ???????

[John O]

kms61: You make some very valid points but the problem is that we have no other naval fire support options right now.

While the BBs have some problems they also have some huge benefits.

They are by far the most survivable ships we have (8-12"armor almost everywhere vice 1/4" steel or Aluminum on other ships) and still have the same self defense armaments. An attack like the USS Cole suffered would merely nudge the ship a little. An exocet strike would result in a call for sweepers to get the junk off the captains nice decks. These ships were built to survive a direct hit from a 16" shell.

They have a greater 'Presence' than any other ship. A BB off your coast looks like a weapon. Most other ships just look like freighters.

We have plenty of barrels and ammo for the 16" guns, and extended range rounds aren't that hard to develop/produce. The big cons are the manning levels (the ships are still manpower intensive), the propulsion system (IIRC they still use a heavier oil (DFM?) while the rest of the fleet uses lighter fuels), short range of main batteries (26 miles or so)

Cost to refurb wouldn't be too huge due to the 80's refit. The ships are in pretty good shape considering that they are approaching 60 years old.

They are most definitely a short term, interim solution but they are the only thing we can bring to bear in a short time frame.

(In the spirit of full disclosure I'll admit to being a big BB fan and was involved (minimally) in bringing them back in the 80s)

[gcruse]

and one web-site, claims that the Sunburn is capable of mach 4.5 !!!!! true or false ???????

The supersonic P-800 Yakhont (Gem) is a ramjet version of P-80 Zubr [SS-N-7 Starbright]. The ship, submarine and coastal-launched Yakhont is launched from the unified ampoule-shaped transport-launching container (TLC). The container is 9 m long, is 0.71 m in diameter. The firing range reaches 300 km (162 nmi.) when flying along a combined trajectory and 120 kg (265 lb.) when following only a low-altitude trajectory. Flight speed varying over the range from M=2.0 to M=2.5 is provided by the kerosene-fueled multi-mode liquid-fuel ramjet.

The Yakhont is a newer, faster version of the Sunburn.  It supposedly maxes out around M2.5.  I'd be curious to know what web site claims 4.5.

[RussianConservative]

So if little known in West about Sunburn, how you know you neutralize something you know nothing about? Computer simulations?

[Charles H. (The_r0nin)]

That's an unguided short-range (7500 yards) weapon. If you've let an enemy sub or plane get under 7500 yards from a carrier battlegroup, you've lost no matter what they are carrying (planes could kill you with iron bombs at that range). That torpedo is much more of a problem for our subs and picket ships...

[The Pheonix]

My mistake abut the web-site

I probably mixed up the Sunburn with another missile

[rmlew]

The issue is that using EM triangulation, the exact location and speed of the fleet can be detected.

[rmlew]

Aegis (SPY1x) C3I system is paired up with the Standard Missle 2 on our Ticonderoga and Arleigh Burke destroyers to shoot down enemy missles. While the Sunburn was developed to be to quick for our air defence ships, our systems have been upgraded.
We have also developed the new Advanced Sea Sparrow Missle to deal with intermediate range defense against these missles.
Finally, all American ships from the Arleigh Burke have been developed with stealth features.

[rmlew]

The Shval is essssentiall an unguided underwater rocket with a range of 7km. What makes you think that a Chicom sub will get within that range?

[veracious]

I'm with you on the BB line. Those are a real naval machine, they demand respect from whole nations when they sail nearby.

[1stFreedom]

Best guesses!

Computer simulations based upon what little is known. Probably simulated against worst case scenario (supersonic, stealthy, movinig, diving, highly maneuvarable missle).

[Light Speed]

>What makes you think that a Chicom sub will get within that range?

Chi-Com subs?...Not likely to get anywhere nears a U.S. Surface battlegroup.

A rocket powered Torpedo..carried piggyback as a stand off launch weapon?
very possible...

China is not likely to do anything about Taiwan..or N.K...except role over and join the modern world,

**Unless..they really do have an Image fixation...and posture that the U.S. does not have the **Will to endure the enivetable losses which are sure to come in a theatre conflict.

Could the Chi-Coms be this crazy?..are they tooling up for a certain date down the road,
knowing they will get bloodied big time facing the U.S. Global military Primacy..but not concerned of the losses..but of the gains and National Image elevation.

Hypothetically..the U.S. could end Bejings games by taking things to EMP and Nuetronic levels at the outset..and do so pre-empt.
going this route somewhere's after the first response wave of China's capability may see a badly mangled Fleet retiring..with Taiwan EMP'd into the stone age..with a few cities smudged off the game board.
If China attacked Taiwan..it would be the end of their economic dream..they would be pariah in every outcome afterwards.
Not likley they could make Japan serve them..or other nations.
so the gambit concerning Taiwan..or N.K. is a dead end.

Myself..do see a danger..down the road in the distant future.
2030..When oil production is in decline...population values/economics...and as Nostradamus encodes in His Quatrains..periods of Drought unhinging nations.
Yes..then a different..more beligerent China.

[judywillow]

Code-named the Shkval or "Squall," the Russian torpedo reportedly travels so fast that no U.S. defense can stop it.

An Iowa class ship wouldn't have to stop it. You could repair the damage with a paintbrush and a bucket of paint. Are any of the Iowa class ships in any sort of a recoverable state still?

[Light Speed]

Maintaining a Battleship in Reserve Status

The protocols for taking care of IOWA as a mobilization asset in the "mothball fleet" have long been written. But as you can imagine, taking care of 46,000 plus tons of steel requires a considerable inventory of skills and talent. Rest assured that in the San Francisco Bay Area, IOWA will benefit from the care of some of our nation's most experienced hands, those of the Maritime Administration ("MARAD"). In the region, more than one hundred ships are preserved by the Maritime Administration, with the help of private industry. Further, the Naval Reserve community offers a priceless reservoir of skilled manpower. The region also boasts substantial facilities. San Francisco Drydock Inc. has the capability to drydock IOWA. At nearby Hunters Point, there is even a functional regunning, heavy lift crane that was specifically designed for 'Iowa'-class battleships.

Two of the most important maintenance functions in caring for a ship in "cold iron" or reserve status are the establishment of a dehumidification system to prevent internal areas from rusting and the use a cathodic protection system to preserve the hull. Otherwise, the combined effects of unchecked internal rusting and metallurgical degradation would soon mortally wound this great ship.

DEHUMIDIFICATION: Dehumidification ("DH") efforts prevent a ship from rusting internally. Rust (ferrous oxide) is formed by the chemical reaction of iron and oxygen. The combination of iron with oxygen results in the deterioration of the surface of the metal. In chemistry, rust is the result of the corrosion of iron, by way of oxidation in the presence of water. As air can contain water, it is necessary to control humidity within a ship to keep water away from steel. The "dew point" is the point at which the water vapor condenses out of the air. This phenomena also happens inside a vessel when air temperature is lowered by the hull structure being cooled by surrounding cold water. This "sweating" causes rust to form on the exposed steel surfaces of structure and machinery. A dehumidifier controls this phenomena by cooling the air that passes through it and collecting the water that condenses out and second, it warms up the air so that it is above the dew point. IOWA has a number of dehumidifiers and the vessel is hermetically sealed to keep dehumidified, dry air inside. This dry, warm air is continuously circulated around machinery and equipment to prevent rust. Indeed, in machinery spaces, equipment may be partially disassembled, while entry hatches to fuel and other tanks opened to benefit from the preservative effects of DH operations. The dry, warm air is circulated through these spaces and the entire ship by means of plastic ventilation pipes that snake their way throughout IOWA.

CATHODIC PROTECTION: Cathodic protection ("CP") is one of the most effective methods for mitigating corrosion of steel structures in soil and water. Corrosion of ferrous metal is a natural process in which metal returns to its native ore. Changing anodic and cathodic areas develop on metal for a number of metallurgical or environmental reasons. Corrosion occurs at the anodic areas. Cathodic protection mitigates corrosion through the use of a low voltage DC current that polarizes the hull to a potential equal to or more negative than its most active anode. IOWA's hull will be protected by an external electro-catalytic protection system, that is suspended around the ship. The battleship at present has a sacrificial zinc anode system, in which the zinc below the waterline sacrifices itself to protect the hull. By augmenting the protection provided by the zinc anodes with a suspended cathodic protection system, it is hoped to extend the service life of the zinc anodes while establishing a more effective CP network

Both dehumidification efforts and cathodic protection rountines require skill and hard work. For instance, if the voltage in a cathodic protection system is wrong, it can destroy a hull rather than preserve it. Meanwhile, dehumidification systems require an enormous amount of work. The ship must be sealed to the outside world. Portholes and vents to the weather decks must be closed and, with the most dehumidifiers, miles of ducking established internally to circulated dehumidified air to all regions of the ship. To be effective, IOWA's fuel tanks, machinery and spaces must be opened and vented to the dry air. Nor does the task end here.

DECKS: IOWA's teak weather decks will require ongoing maintenance or replacement. This means carpentry and lots of elbow grease. Damaged planking must be removed and new wood inserted. Any rust damage to the steel plate underneath the wood needs to be addressed. This requires scraping and priming. Caulking for the teak decks must be inspected and also repaired. Decks should be sealed against the effects of weather. Drains will need to be cleaned so rain water can drain from weather decks.

PAINTING: As paint weathers, flaking may occur and external areas will need to be repainted. Inside IOWA, paint flaking will also need to be addressed. Paint removal will mandate precautions, as some areas may contain lead paint. Outside, netting will be used so that when scraping or sand blasting surfaces, loose paint does not fall into the Bay to pose an environmental problem.

CLEANUP: Weather decks need to be clean of debris. These very general descriptions should help provide some idea of the efforts that will be expended on maintaining IOWA. Much more detail, down to manpower requirements and even electrical bills have been projected by Historic Ships Memorial at Pacific Square and delivered to the Department of the Navy. Can IOWA be maintained here in the Bay Area? The answer is a definitive "yes". It was indeed a testament to the Bay Area, when senior Navy officers in Washington noted the excellence in ship care demonstrated by MARAD and Bay Area workmen, and approved IOWA's relocation to Suisun Bay.

>"Are any of the Iowa class ships in any sort of a recoverable state still?"

Sure..they may need some hull welding..piping work,,and electrical trunking,

could be easily automated if the project had the money and foresight put to it.

I guess it is all in the perspective and imagination.
some see the BB's as viable..and certainly a good interem platform until the DD[X] or Automated Arsenal ships of the future come on line.

They could refit..automate 2 Iowas..get 2 more decades out of them.
They would not need to be online..on station endlessly like the rest of the fleet.
Maybe pre-position one out at Diego Garcia.

Navy does not want them...its missiles now.
inter service bludgeon fest for aircraft and munitions. This is minor to what would occur should a Sunburn get thru.

[Centurion2000]

The ramjet powered Sunburn missile travels at over 1,500 miles an hour at altitudes of less than 9 feet. Each missile can be armed with a 200 Kiloton nuclear warhead.

Will 200 KT do it?

That would take a carrier ... of course ICBM's and SLBM's would be striking the silos and cities of the country that just did that to us.

[judywillow]

The Iowa ships should be viewed as a major asset and kept up to date, for a number of reasons:

• Nothing much short of a direct hit by a nuclear weapon could do much damage to them, in which case the US would have its excuse to use nukes against the adversary which committed such an act. Iowa class ships were made to do battle with the Bismark, Terpitz, Musashi, and Yamato, and to absorb hits from battleship guns. All of the various kinds of super missiles and torpedos you've read about and heard about over the last 20 years or so would be ineffective against it.
• 80 Percent of all potential targets in the world are within the normal range of the guns of an Iowa class ship. Humans still prefer to live near water.
• New kinds of sabot rounds give the 16" guns a range of about 100 miles, while retaining a warhead of about 600 - 800 lbs, which is much larger than that of any other naval gun.
• An Iowa class ship can provide a volume of offensive fire which would require many aircraft, in every kind of weather, and with zero risk to pilots. One such ship can do certain kinds of jobs better than an entire aircraft carrier battle group.