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Calls Show Pre-Blackout Utility Confusion
AP ^ | 9/3/03 | JOSEF HEBERT

Posted on 09/03/2003 4:10:50 PM PDT by Pro-Bush

Calls Show Pre-Blackout Utility Confusion

WASHINGTON - During the hour before the Aug. 14 blackout, engineers in the control center of an Ohio utility struggled to figure out why transmission lines were failing and complained that a computer failure was making it difficult to determine what was going on, transcripts of telephone communications released Wednesday show.

At one point, an engineer at the Midwest grid managing organization asked engineers at the Ohio utility, FirstEnergy Corp., to explain why they had not responded to a line outage reported sometime earlier and asked that they find out what was going on.

"We have no clue. Our computer is giving us fits, too," replied a FirstEnergy technician identified as Jerry Snickey. "We don't even know the status of some of the stuff (power fluctuations) around us."

A short time later, a technician at the Midwest Independent Transmission System Operators, the group that monitors the Midwest power grid, expressed frustration with FirstEnergy's failure to diagnose the problems erupting in their power system.

"I called you guys like 10 minutes ago, and I thought you were figuring out what was gong on there," the MISO technician, identified as Don Hunter, complained, according to the transcripts.

"Well, we're trying to," replied Snickey. "Our computer is not happy. It's not cooperating either."


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events; US: Ohio
KEYWORDS: blackout; firstenergy
engineers in the control center of an Ohio utility struggled to figure out why transmission lines were failing and complained that a computer failure was making it difficult to determine what was going on

Hmmm.
1 posted on 09/03/2003 4:10:50 PM PDT by Pro-Bush
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To: Pro-Bush
Virus, Worm or just your everyday Microsoft pain?
2 posted on 09/03/2003 4:21:52 PM PDT by Russian Sage
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To: Russian Sage
Virus, Worm or just your everyday Microsoft pain?

Blue screen of death. Please reinstall Windows.

3 posted on 09/03/2003 4:29:24 PM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all things that need to be done need to be done by the government.)
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To: Russian Sage
Virus, Worm or just your everyday Microsoft pain?

Try this on for size... The guy who knew what he was doing asked for a raise and was told to go to hell. He left for greener pastures and the entire east coast goes down. I'll bet this isn't far from the truth.
4 posted on 09/03/2003 4:32:04 PM PDT by Crusader21stCentury
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To: Pro-Bush
Still amazed that the cause of the blackout hasn't come out. If the operators were actually in control they would know what had happened in real time.

Now it's just a face saving farce for all involved.



5 posted on 09/03/2003 4:35:38 PM PDT by Milwaukee_Guy (The Law of Unintended Consequences - No Good Deed Shall Go Unpunished.)
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To: Pro-Bush
Ah yes, the computer age. This reminds me of an airliner that was flown into the bay in San Francisco several years ago because the computer decided that was the best thing to do. Cashiers cannot even make change now day if the computer goes down. And to think we are all at the mercy of one 14 year old kid...
6 posted on 09/03/2003 4:39:50 PM PDT by Raymond Hendrix
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To: Crusader21stCentury
Or they 'outsourced' their IT department to BigMultinationalCorporation that has a turnaround time of 2-3 days for requests.
7 posted on 09/03/2003 5:11:34 PM PDT by lelio
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To: Russian Sage
Microsoft sux sometimes, but sometimes the Gates haters remind of Bush haters in their irrationality.
8 posted on 09/03/2003 6:03:13 PM PDT by .cnI redruM (More Americans 18-49 Watch The Cartoon Network than CNN!!!)
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To: .cnI redruM
It seems to me that most people would rather do a task, any task, via computer (or high tech gadget) even when doing it the old fashioned way is just as efficient or more so.

here's a very very mundane example...

Those catsup dispensers at burger king...they used to be a manual operated submerged pump. all you needed to do was push down on the plunger one time and the appropriate amount is dispensed in your paper cup. But no more! Oh no! Some genius decided that wasn't good enough. Now we have a pneumatic pump system that squirts catsup through a tiny little orifice. To make matters worse, there is a time delay from when you depress the electric switch to the time there is enough pressure(or is it vacuum?) built up to get the catsup moving through that rediculous little orifice. Then, once it starts coming out, its coming out at warp 5....and naturally, there is a second time delay from when you release the electric button to the time the catsup actually stops squirting. It is virtually impossible to get your paper cup filled just the right amount...AND, it takes 3 times longer to do a poorer job of it. How's that for technology?

Now, let me recap:

The old system was cheap, simple, cannot break down, doesn't require power, worked quickly, and flawlessly and even a pet raccoon has the hand-eye coordination to work it properly.

The new system costs more, and replaced a system that was already in place and functioning and it is unlikely that any salvage value was gotten out of the old system...it was likely just thrown away. The new system is complicated, requires power, makes messes, frustrates the cusomers, and the line at the catsup dispenser now tends to be longer.

Who the * actually thinks this is an improvement!!
9 posted on 09/03/2003 6:24:44 PM PDT by mamelukesabre
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To: Pro-Bush
Well, they spelled Jerry's name wrong, but things are starting to come together.

The computer issue might make one go "hmmm", except that this particular computer that FE still uses has been known to be down for long periods of time. If I could describe it in two words, it would be "self-hacking". Until 2 years ago, I worked in that very control center, and I remember it being unreliable. I also remember it giving all kinds of meaningless alarms to the point that we were stressed to dig out the important alarms in a sea of useless information. Our complaints were ignored. I suspect complaints will no longer be ignored on this matter.

I have some additional information from a couple of the folks up there in Akron/Cleveland. It seems that the reason that Eastlake unit 5 tripped off was instability in the exciter. The unit was having trouble regulating voltage due to the system voltage sagging. The exciter overheated and tripped the unit off. Its not unusual when transmission loading is very high to have voltage problems in that part of the grid, particularly since several of the smaller, older generators along Lake Erie have been decomissioned along with Davis-Besse Nuke still being off line. There's not a lot of generation up there to help the system out.

Also, my conversation yesterday revealed that there were very large power flows into Michigan that afternoon. My friend tells me that the flow through FE's system that afternoon was around 1500 MW, which is fairly substantial. I don't know if the midwest ISO was allowing this flow, or if it was being done "off the books". There's a lot of trust among utilities that no longer exists in the competitive market and as a result, there are likely to be side transactions that would never be allowed if NERC policy were being followed. I have no proof of this, but I'm highly suspicious, given the financial rewards for "cheating" and the lack of punishment for doing the same.

10 posted on 09/04/2003 5:39:12 AM PDT by meyer
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To: Russian Sage
Virus, Worm or just your everyday Microsoft pain?

BTW, FE's energy management computer uses proprietary software designed by GE-Harris, built on a UNIX platform. No Microsoft there. The system was also designed to operate a grid about 1/3 the size of FE's grid.

11 posted on 09/04/2003 5:41:00 AM PDT by meyer
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To: Pro-Bush
Just out of curiosity, am I correct in thinking that First Energy is a Canadian firm?
12 posted on 09/04/2003 5:42:05 AM PDT by mewzilla
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To: meyer
BTW, FE's energy management computer uses proprietary software designed by GE-Harris, built on a UNIX platform.

I am forced to use GE's on-line invoicing system, such as it is. I have a strong suspicion that this system was outsourced to New Delhi. When you call their help desk (which is frequent given the problems it has) you get someone who speaks in Indian-accented broken English, who tells you he doesn't know what the problem is and you're to call another number. So I'm wondering if their grid management software, if it comes from GE, might not have been similarly outsourced.

If so, it shows you the very, very serious downside of overseasing important software. Save a few pennies in the quarterly bottom line by firing your in-house IT dept., and take down the power system for half the country's population.

13 posted on 09/04/2003 5:52:08 AM PDT by chimera
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
If I uninstall windows and reinstall, will I lose other things such as quickbooks, office jet printer, etc?
Would I unstall all things labeled microsoft including outlook express and internet expolerer?
I deleted something by accident and my mcafee firewall will not reinstall till I fix microsoft.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
14 posted on 09/04/2003 5:57:58 AM PDT by winodog
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To: chimera
I am forced to use GE's on-line invoicing system, such as it is. I have a strong suspicion that this system was outsourced to New Delhi. When you call their help desk (which is frequent given the problems it has) you get someone who speaks in Indian-accented broken English, who tells you he doesn't know what the problem is and you're to call another number. So I'm wondering if their grid management software, if it comes from GE, might not have been similarly outsourced.

That may well be, but it wasn't the case (I don't think) in 1999 when I was still there - GE sent engineers out on a few occasions in the late 1990's to help tame the system. Most of them came from the west coast. I don't think they ever sent the same engineer twice, due to turnover in the industry at the time. Lots of job-hopping, along with some crappy software apparently.

Even if the system worked perfectly, its design and setup was not user-friendly. The power grid layout was basically a giant "Auto-Cad" type of print that required a lot of scrolling around and zooming in and out just to follow a line to its destination and read its loading. The alarming priorities were all askew, with useless information flooding the screen that should have been reserved for only the most important data. The alarm bell rang for everything from lines tripping to minor overloads to substation doors being opened and closed. It was not designed with the operation of a grid in mind. The problem was that the in-house IT department dictated what the users got instead of the users dictating what the IT department should give them.

15 posted on 09/04/2003 6:03:51 AM PDT by meyer
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To: Crusader21stCentury
Try this on for size... The guy who knew what he was doing asked for a raise and was told to go to hell. He left for greener pastures and the entire east coast goes down. I'll bet this isn't far from the truth.

That's plausable, given the way they ran the place after the merger. Frankly, I left 2 1/2 years ago and not necessarily for a raise - the corporate "culture" (and I hate using that left-wing phrase, but it applies) just plain stunk there.

16 posted on 09/04/2003 6:07:16 AM PDT by meyer
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To: meyer
I wrote up some training documents in the mid-1980's for GE's TRA (Transient Recording and Analysis) system. It was poorly documented and the code "looked" flaky when it ran. The module I worked on, which was the reactor stability analysis, used a time series approach and eventually did a Fourier transform to frequency space, which is a standard method of noise analysis, but you have to be careful that normal fluctuations in the signals aren't misinterpreted as instabilities. Their system was very sensitive to that. I'm wondering now if this isn't a problem that might end up in GE's lap.
17 posted on 09/04/2003 6:14:06 AM PDT by chimera
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To: chimera
I wrote up some training documents in the mid-1980's for GE's TRA (Transient Recording and Analysis) system. It was poorly documented and the code "looked" flaky when it ran. The module I worked on, which was the reactor stability analysis, used a time series approach and eventually did a Fourier transform to frequency space, which is a standard method of noise analysis, but you have to be careful that normal fluctuations in the signals aren't misinterpreted as instabilities. Their system was very sensitive to that. I'm wondering now if this isn't a problem that might end up in GE's lap.

I'm sure the warranty is up on that system. :) Actually, I can only report as an end user - I am not well versed in software design. I can say with certainty, however, that the old IT folks from Cleveland were more responsive to dispatcher needs. They also squeezed over 20 years of service from an old Sigma-5 computer system, finally retiring it around 1994 or so in favor of an ABB design that was rejected at the merger (as were all things related to Cleveland).

Seriously, I think there is going to be a multitude of sins that occurred to set up this situation in the first place, but the lack of information provided by FirstEnergy's EMS computer precluded any reaction by system dispatchers (and given the top-down management of FE, I suspect that they wouldn't react without permission anyway, even though NERC policy empowers them to do so).

The midwest ISO had duplicative information as well through a separate system, or they should have. I recall an early article that indicated that they didn't think a single 345,000 volt line tripping in the Cleveland area was significant. Having operated the grid in the Cleveland area prior to the FirstEnergy merger, I would disagree. I think that the ISO was woefully unfamiliar with local constraints and thus didn't "see the trees for the forest" as it were. Their size precludes them from seeing important details.

18 posted on 09/04/2003 6:27:30 AM PDT by meyer
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To: meyer
Sir,
If you have any other information on the exciter problems at Eastlake I would be very interested and I might be able to shed some light on what it means. I was a GE generator and excitation specialist for 6 years. I am familiar with most types of GE exciters. At first glance it appears that the part that is over heating is the generator field. Usually field temperature is inferred from a measurment of the field resistance. If the system voltage was sagging the generator would be trying to push high amounts of vars into the system and thus the field current would be high. High field current will make the field heat up and it could force a trip or curtailment.
19 posted on 09/04/2003 6:36:25 AM PDT by Fellow Traveler
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To: Fellow Traveler
Sir, If you have any other information on the exciter problems at Eastlake I would be very interested and I might be able to shed some light on what it means. I was a GE generator and excitation specialist for 6 years. I am familiar with most types of GE exciters. At first glance it appears that the part that is over heating is the generator field. Usually field temperature is inferred from a measurment of the field resistance. If the system voltage was sagging the generator would be trying to push high amounts of vars into the system and thus the field current would be high. High field current will make the field heat up and it could force a trip or curtailment.

I don't have direct information from the plant personnel, but considering Cleveland's constraints, lack of generation near the city, and the rather large power flows that were apparently going up towards Michigan from the south (I wonder who, if anybody approved that transaction), I would bet they were pushing all the VARS that the unit could supply. We often pushed the units pretty hard for both VAR and MW output in the summer months up there (actually, that's pretty universal in the industry). It isn't unusual to run close to the edge, but they apparently went over that line.

Someone I had talked to mentioned voltage fluctuations during the afternoon as well. They mentioned that a sudden dip may have caused the voltage regulator on the unit to push beyond the limit, either overheating the field or causing an overcurrent condition on the exciter. It may even have failed under stress. I'll try to get more information when possible.

20 posted on 09/04/2003 7:42:53 AM PDT by meyer
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To: meyer
You may be right about that overcurrent causing a trip. Typically a field overheat is only an alarm unless it is a nuke plant. Let me know what else you find out, just for curiosities sake.
21 posted on 09/04/2003 7:50:08 AM PDT by Fellow Traveler
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To: .cnI redruM
and some little unix (or worse linux box) would be more likely to have a never-to-be-understood crash.
22 posted on 09/04/2003 8:38:27 AM PDT by epluribus_2
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To: winodog
I know enough to be dangerous rather than reliable, so I would prefer that someone else help you. I do know that when reinstalling an operating system it is standard to back up everything you can prior to the reinstall. You might try booting from the Windows CD before you reinstall and see if that will allow you to install your firewall. Again, someone else smarter than I would be of more help to you.
23 posted on 09/04/2003 9:04:24 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all things that need to be done need to be done by the government.)
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To: meyer
It's probably just a coincidence that First Energy got bitch-slapped by a Federal Judge just a few days prior. The judge ruled that FE had to install "best available" pollution control devices on all their older coal-burning power plants.

That had to seriously distract the FE management.

24 posted on 09/04/2003 9:06:51 AM PDT by snopercod (Give us Bread and Roses...)
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To: Fellow Traveler
Wouldn't high hydrogen temperature be an indication of generator field heating as well?
25 posted on 09/04/2003 9:09:10 AM PDT by snopercod (Give us Bread and Roses...)
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.
26 posted on 09/04/2003 9:12:15 AM PDT by Mo1 (http://www.favewavs.com/wavs/cartoons/spdemocrats.wav)
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To: snopercod
It's probably just a coincidence that First Energy got bitch-slapped by a Federal Judge just a few days prior. The judge ruled that FE had to install "best available" pollution control devices on all their older coal-burning power plants.

What's interesting about that case is that a similar suit in a different federal jurisdiction brought about the opposite ruling. The rule is basically a unilateral change brought about by Clinton's EPA anyways. They essentially took a vague rule and "reinterpreted" it so that actions that were taken by utilities in the past (and approved by the EPA) were deemed illegal, ex-post facto.

Anyway, while the ruling did probably distract upper management, the system dispatchers probably weren't too affected by it. The long term effects of the ruling will probably make the grid even less reliable however, as more of those older plants get retired rather than upgraded to meet the new standards. The older plants tend to be closer to the actual consumers, while the cheap to build (and expensive to operate) gas turbines that will replace them will be located in some remote area where a major gas line crosses an existing power line. Look for more strain on the grid as a result.

27 posted on 09/04/2003 9:16:42 AM PDT by meyer
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To: Fellow Traveler; meyer
Damn. I think we missed the hearings (unless they have an afternoon session).

The hearings before Billy Tauzin's Energy and Commerce committee were being webcast this morning. The link is on [this page].

28 posted on 09/04/2003 9:19:05 AM PDT by snopercod (he not busy being born is busy dying...)
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To: snopercod
Damn. I think we missed the hearings (unless they have an afternoon session).

I would have liked to have heard that as well, though I am a little nervious whenever a bunch of politicians get together and try to legislate new laws - especially laws of physics. :)

29 posted on 09/04/2003 9:23:33 AM PDT by meyer
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To: snopercod
Hydrogen temp really doesn't tell you what is going on in either the Field or Stator. The most usefule hydrogen temps are at the Hydrogen cooler inlet and outlets. They can tell you if you have a cooler plugged or more likely valved out. The stator temps are usually picked up with RTD's between the bars at various points in the unit. On water cooled generators they typically use thermocouples mounted at each individual hose coupling right before the water discharge header. They can let you know if individual bars are getting hot. The field temp is normally monitored by measuring field resistance. Accurate testing of field resistance during maintenance outtages is essential to calibrating that measurement.

Hydrogen temp by itself can't tell you what part of the generator is heating up. Certainly it can tell you that a problem exists with the entire system. I might mention that Everything I described above is GE build practives. Other manufacturers may do it differently.

30 posted on 09/04/2003 9:31:33 AM PDT by Fellow Traveler
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To: Fellow Traveler
I used to know all that stuff. As an instrumentation startup engineer, I activated the instrumentation on the GE turbine at Cholla Unit 4 in Joseph City, AZ. I checked out the auxiliary packages and everything.

But that was twenty years ago...sigh.

31 posted on 09/04/2003 9:52:49 AM PDT by snopercod (he not busy being born is busy dying...)
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To: Fellow Traveler
Hydrogen temp by itself can't tell you what part of the generator is heating up. Certainly it can tell you that a problem exists with the entire system. I might mention that Everything I described above is GE build practives. Other manufacturers may do it differently.

I don't remember if Unit 5 at Eastlake was a GE or Westinghouse unit. Still, I suspect that operations ought to be similar. Incidentally, Unit 5 is the first major generator I ever saw, and the Eastlake plant is the first power plant I ever visited in my travels as a relay tech. Its a pretty impressive machine, as are all large generators.

32 posted on 09/04/2003 10:04:26 AM PDT by meyer
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To: snopercod
If you worked out in that corner of the world did you ever run across a man named JR Robinson, or Jim Fox. I knew both of them and they were working out there at that time.
33 posted on 09/04/2003 10:19:26 AM PDT by Fellow Traveler
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To: mewzilla
I flipped through their annual report and didn't find any connection with Canada. Seems to be an electrical utility serving Ohio, Pennsylvania and New Jersey.
34 posted on 09/04/2003 10:25:24 AM PDT by xp38
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To: meyer
I recall an early article that indicated that they didn't think a single 345,000 volt line tripping in the Cleveland area was significant. Having operated the grid in the Cleveland area prior to the FirstEnergy merger, I would disagree.

Given the kinds of NIMBY going on, I think you're probably right. Linn Draper (AEP's boss) was sounding off about the one categorization of the US grid as "third world". He noted that it isn't that, but it is being pushed close to its limits. This is due in large part to the morass of regulations, federal, state, and local, that must be navigated for any kind of project, be it a plant or transmission line. Mr. Draper cited the case of an AEP HV transmission line that was first planned and proposed 13 years ago, and just this year had its final sign-off by the regulators. Now they've got to finance and build the thing. When its finally carrying megawatts, it will be going on 20 years, just to get a single transmission line up.

Not the kind of system, in its present incarnation, that lends itself to quick fixes.

35 posted on 09/04/2003 10:31:32 AM PDT by chimera
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To: meyer
Incidentally, Unit 5 is the first major generator I ever saw, and the Eastlake plant is the first power plant I ever visited in my travels as a relay tech. Its a pretty impressive machine, as are all large generators.

Some of these things literally stagger the imagination to think of the kind of power coming out at the busbar. I remember being boggled when I saw the turbine and generator tear-down for maintenance at the Point Beach plant. They had the end of the generator opened where that isophase bus comes out. Talk about a BIG wire, it was a conductor about as big around as a factory chimney. Impressive, to say the least.

36 posted on 09/04/2003 10:35:03 AM PDT by chimera
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To: chimera
Given the kinds of NIMBY going on, I think you're probably right. Linn Draper (AEP's boss) was sounding off about the one categorization of the US grid as "third world". He noted that it isn't that, but it is being pushed close to its limits. This is due in large part to the morass of regulations, federal, state, and local, that must be navigated for any kind of project, be it a plant or transmission line. Mr. Draper cited the case of an AEP HV transmission line that was first planned and proposed 13 years ago, and just this year had its final sign-off by the regulators. Now they've got to finance and build the thing. When its finally carrying megawatts, it will be going on 20 years, just to get a single transmission line up.

Not the kind of system, in its present incarnation, that lends itself to quick fixes.

Absolutely - There was a transmission line that was to be built from the Perry Nuclear Plant down to Hanna substation just east of Akron, but the NIMBY's eventually shut the project down, claiming that the line wasn't needed. Ironically, that line would have stood a very good chance of prevented the blackout, had it been built. The loss of the first transmission line into Cleveland would likely have been absorbed by the system with one more major parallel path into the area.

NIMBYism doomed California, and it is a big factor in this blackout as well, even if it isn't found to be the trigger. Our infrastructure simply hasn't kept up with the population.

37 posted on 09/04/2003 11:00:54 AM PDT by meyer
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To: meyer
Ironically, that line would have stood a very good chance of prevented the blackout, had it been built. The loss of the first transmission line into Cleveland would likely have been absorbed by the system with one more major parallel path into the area.

And the sad (and maddening) thing about it is, none of the NIMBYs or wackos who opposed this project will be held accountable for their complicity in being responsible, in part, for this blackout occurring. The press certainly won't. Its unpalatable to the mainstream media to point out the downside of environmental extremisim because, after all, "their intentions are good".

BTW, a similar thing is happening with the Columbia investigation. Everyone knows that foam breaking off the external tank damaging the wing is what did it, but I have yet to see any mention anywhere (other than FR) of the fact that NASA switched to a non-freon foam for environmental reasons, and this substitute foam apparently has inferior adhesive properties. So environmental extremism may very well be the root cause. But the mainstream press won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. And who will end up paying the price, besides those who died? Managers within NASA, of course, many of whom had nothing to do with the decision to go with the alternate material.

But I digress. Still, the lack of accountability of environmentalist wackos in these kinds of things and the unwillingness of the press to hold their feet to the fire is just outrageous.

38 posted on 09/04/2003 11:39:04 AM PDT by chimera
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To: epluribus_2
I used to have unix inflicted on me, and believe it or not, I like Windows better. Yes, MS crashes like a trucker on quaaludes, but it's a lot easier to put into safe mode and repair then unix.
39 posted on 09/04/2003 12:04:57 PM PDT by .cnI redruM (More Americans 18-49 Watch The Cartoon Network than CNN!!!)
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To: mamelukesabre
The new system costs more, and replaced a system that was already in place and functioning and it is unlikely that any salvage value was gotten out of the old system...it was likely just thrown away. The new system is complicated, requires power, makes messes, frustrates the cusomers, and the line at the catsup dispenser now tends to be longer.

Translation: If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

40 posted on 09/04/2003 12:16:06 PM PDT by Publius6961 (californians are as dumb as a sack of rocks.)
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To: meyer
...It seems that the reason that Eastlake unit 5 tripped off was instability in the exciter. The unit was having trouble regulating voltage due to the system voltage sagging. The exciter overheated and tripped the unit off.

Sounds like a job for Viagra.

41 posted on 09/04/2003 12:20:23 PM PDT by SGCOS
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To: meyer
It was not designed with the operation of a grid in mind. The problem was that the in-house IT department dictated what the users got instead of the users dictating what the IT department should give them.

This was the major problem in 1964 when we first began having customized programs prepared for engineering design.
The programmers were briefed by beancounters or other company overhead as to the requirements, and only when the programs were substantially done were the actual users allowed to provide input.

Programmers and beancounters are not engineers.
User-hostile programs were the result.

Guess what kind of meeting I just got out of, 40 years later?
Right. Nothing ever changes much.

42 posted on 09/04/2003 12:22:01 PM PDT by Publius6961 (californians are as dumb as a sack of rocks.)
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To: Fellow Traveler
Both of those names sound very familiar, but it was a long time ago. I was a contractor working for APS, and Bechtel was the prime contractor. I think the boiler controls were Leeds & Northrup, IIRC.

The man I worked for was Aubrey Parsons of APS. It was a fun job, mostly.

They had a problem with their drum level instrumentation, which I analyzed and solved.

43 posted on 09/04/2003 12:45:25 PM PDT by snopercod (And if it is a despot you would dethrone, see first that his throne erected within you is destroyed.)
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To: chimera
Re: the ET foam. Probably more important was the change in the solvent to prep the tank for foaming. That has received zero mention anywhere but FR. See bone's thread for the details I posted.
44 posted on 09/04/2003 12:49:14 PM PDT by snopercod (And if it is a despot you would dethrone, see first that his throne erected within you is destroyed.)
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To: meyer
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I read the whole thread...Very informing.
45 posted on 09/04/2003 12:56:16 PM PDT by Pro-Bush (Awareness is what you know before you know anything else.)
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