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France says no to Christianity in Constitution
EUObserver ^ | 09.14.2003 | Marcin Frydrych

Posted on 09/14/2003 3:27:23 PM PDT by nickcarraway

Despite strong lobbying from the Vatican and representatives of the Orthodox Church in Europe, the preamble of the draft treaty establishing the Constitution for Europe - produced by the European Convention in June - has resisted any reference to Christianity.

France along with Turkey are the main countries contending such a reference.

"France is a lay state and as such she does not have a habit of calling for insertions of a religious nature into constitutional texts", the French President told reporters at a visit in Quintos de Moro where he met Spanish Prime Minister, José Maria Aznar.

"The lay character of French institutions does not allow them to accept a religious reference" in a domestic or EU constitution, Mr Chirac concluded.

Several countries, Italy, Spain and Poland among them, have backed the idea of having a reference to Christianity included in the Constitution.

Warsaw intends to raise this issue in its four-point strategy for the Intergovernmental Conference which begins next month in Rome.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: catholicbashing; catholiclist; christianity; christianlist; clashofcivilizatio; constitution; euconstitution; europeanchristians; europeanunion; france; religion

1 posted on 09/14/2003 3:27:24 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway
France is a lay state

Interesting, considering they own all the churches, and the Church can only use such churches by permission.

2 posted on 09/14/2003 3:28:04 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway
How many years before sharia law is slipped in?
3 posted on 09/14/2003 3:29:09 PM PDT by Wormwood
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To: Wormwood
Next year.
4 posted on 09/14/2003 3:29:58 PM PDT by Paul Atreides (Bringing you quality, non-unnecessarily-excerpted threads since 2002)
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To: Wormwood
Probably already in the ``secret constitution.''
5 posted on 09/14/2003 3:31:56 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway
Finally...Chirac acting like the conservative he is...
6 posted on 09/14/2003 3:38:00 PM PDT by sal002a
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To: Wormwood; nickcarraway
France is a lay state

Wrong! France is a gay state.

7 posted on 09/14/2003 3:38:05 PM PDT by nwrep
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To: nickcarraway
Some people say the rise of a liberal extremist world leader from the EU is impossable.
They say a man, a liar but good spinner, especially a man who appoints himself a leader without being elected, sort of like Clinton in the EU, could never outlaw religion. He could never get the people in Europe to follow him by his speeches alone.
They say he could never force the masseses to accept a computer chip in their right hand or forehead to share the wealth and create a false peace in the world.
They say a man cannot be considered a messiah by his followers. He's just a man.
They say a book that tells of this man- an old fiction novel, a mythical story, and the rise of a man such as this- an anti-Christ type leader, could never happen.
They tell us not to believe it. They say just follow them. They say there is nothing to be concerned about.
8 posted on 09/14/2003 3:44:22 PM PDT by concerned about politics (Lucifers lefties are still stuck at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy)
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To: nickcarraway
France is a country that thinks it's religious enough.

That makes Jesus angry and when Jesus get's angry...


9 posted on 09/14/2003 3:46:57 PM PDT by Bogey78O (The Clinton's have pardoned more terrorists than they ever captured/killed -Peach)
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To: nickcarraway
I wonder how French textbooks treat Charles Martel. They probably criticize him for stopping the spread of such a "peaceful" religion.
10 posted on 09/14/2003 3:54:45 PM PDT by Genesis defender (That boy is sharp as a pound of wet leather -- Foghorn Leghorn)
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To: nickcarraway
"France is a lay state"

No - France is a profiteering, athiest/muslim (satanic) state that never saw a dictator they didn't want to surrender to - especially if it meant a nice profit for them.

I can see why Turkey would have some objections to Christianity being included in the European charter, as they are predominantly Muslim. Unfortunately, France will soon be majority Muslim as well - at least those who are not athiests.

11 posted on 09/14/2003 3:56:23 PM PDT by TheBattman (Do I really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: concerned about politics
"liberal extremist" from Europe?

It would take a liberal extermist to be elected somewhere in Europe. The most "liberal" leader is Schroeder, and his power is extremely limited (and will probably lose next election). Next is Blair - and he is not exactly a liberal.

I would say an EU leader would be a conservative, since the powerful countries in Europe now (France, Italy and soon Germany) have conservative leaders.
12 posted on 09/14/2003 3:58:43 PM PDT by sal002a
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To: nickcarraway
This may prove the unraveling of the EU... Italy in particular, and Spain and Poland in all likelihood will politely insist... and will not "fold" on this issue.

Humble opinion....

13 posted on 09/14/2003 4:00:04 PM PDT by Wings-n-Wind
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To: sal002a
It would take a liberal extermist to be elected somewhere in Europe

Nah. He's like a Hitler, but worse. He won't be elected. He'll be a decieving speeker, a self appointed king. Many will follow his words. He'll lead simply by giving speeches, and people will follow him, and demand their government listen to him.

14 posted on 09/14/2003 4:02:33 PM PDT by concerned about politics (Lucifers lefties are still stuck at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy)
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To: nickcarraway
Why don't they just follow the American Constitution and insert a clause that reads: Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or the free exercise thereof. Then they just let everyone practice whatever religion they want and the government stays out of it.

That clause worked perfectly here in America until the Supreme Court's bias against religion turned the High Court into an advocate for secularism.
15 posted on 09/14/2003 4:03:45 PM PDT by Noachian (Liberalism belongs to the Fool, the Fraud, and the Vacuous.)
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To: sal002a
Chirac is not a conservatie unless you weight it against the rest of the country of France.
16 posted on 09/14/2003 4:04:29 PM PDT by Bogey78O (The Clinton's have pardoned more terrorists than they ever captured/killed -Peach)
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To: nickcarraway
HA! Now it makes sense why the evvvvvvvilll frogs are frying over there! DON'T MESS WITH GOD! ;)
17 posted on 09/14/2003 4:12:11 PM PDT by RoseofTexas
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: RoseofTexas
HA! Now it makes sense why the evvvvvvvilll frogs are frying over there! DON'T MESS WITH GOD! ;)

He's sending them a revelation of their future. Right now, he's just being kind. The universal thermostat isn't even turned up yet.

19 posted on 09/14/2003 4:22:23 PM PDT by concerned about politics (Lucifers lefties are still stuck at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy)
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To: Bogey78O
Chirac is not a social conservative - but is very much an economic one.
20 posted on 09/14/2003 4:28:40 PM PDT by sal002a
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To: nickcarraway
France will be an Islamic theocracy before long. They're thinking ahead.
21 posted on 09/14/2003 4:30:07 PM PDT by Savage Beast (The American Heartland--the Spirit of Flight 93)
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To: sal002a
Chirac is not a social conservative - but is very much an economic one.

He has no choice. He shared the wealth, now no body has any.

22 posted on 09/14/2003 4:30:35 PM PDT by concerned about politics (Lucifers lefties are still stuck at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy)
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To: sal002a
The average intelligence of the FR poster has sure gone to hell. Try to splain yourself, dolt?
23 posted on 09/14/2003 4:37:14 PM PDT by STD
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To: STD
Instead of name-calling..explain what you mean.
24 posted on 09/14/2003 4:39:25 PM PDT by sal002a
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To: nwrep
France is a terrible pothole of a third-world state. Those were my impressions 15 years ago.
25 posted on 09/14/2003 5:29:25 PM PDT by BobS
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To: EnviroBuster
I missed this. When did the supreme court issue an opinion that advocated for secularism?

You must have been away for awhile.

Let's start with the First Amendment clause that prohibits Congress, and by extension the SC, from making law "RESPECTING" religion. Look up the word "respecting". Simply put it means hands off.

How about a "wall of separation between church and state" that exists nowhere in the Constitution, but was taken, out of context, from a Letter Jefferson wrote.

The newest and latest creation of the High Court is the "incorporation" of the First Amendment into the Fourteenth Amendment, but only as it pertains to religion. The other four First Amendment rights are untouched, but religion gets screwed.

What's coming up in the future? European precedents being used to "supplement" the Constitution especially in areas of religion. These we'll have to wait for, but they should be interesting.

BTW, have you any recent High Court rulings favoring a religious case? I'd like to hear about them.
26 posted on 09/14/2003 6:07:41 PM PDT by Noachian (Liberalism belongs to the Fool, the Fraud, and the Vacuous.)
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To: Wings-n-Wind
Why is anyone surprised. Just one state, implies one big state to fail.

I hope the EU self destructs. The way Europe was before all this socialist crapola was just fine with me.

Isn't France already in violation of the EU debt standards?
27 posted on 09/14/2003 6:11:13 PM PDT by snooker
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To: nickcarraway
The Pope should threaten to send his Swiss Guards to Paris. I'm sure the French would then quickly capitulate.
28 posted on 09/14/2003 6:19:29 PM PDT by The Great RJ
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To: nickcarraway
Does anyone know why America has only one UN representative(even though it has fifty states), and the EU has one representative for each of the countries that make up the EU?

If the EU wants to be one European state shouldn't it get just one vote like America does?

Or, maybe America should get fifty representatives at the UN.
29 posted on 09/14/2003 6:29:29 PM PDT by Noachian (Liberalism belongs to the Fool, the Fraud, and the Vacuous.)
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To: sal002a
He is not conservative in any form of the word. He is a socialist. That is why France is going broke. That is why 11,000+ people died in a heat wave. They sit around and wait for someone else to turn on some air.

Ask any Vet who went through France. They sat on the rubble waiting for someone to clean it up. Our GI's had more respect for the Germans. They would be out in the rubble seperating bricks that could be used to rebuild. The German POW's here in the US worked hard in fields. The French have more days off than most people work. That is why most Businesses go to England.

France thinks itself important. Spell it different, remove the R and replace the A and you get Impotent. Which is France.
30 posted on 09/14/2003 6:41:06 PM PDT by Michael121
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To: TheBattman
I can see why Turkey would have some objections to Christianity being included in the European charter, as they are predominantly Muslim

Actually Turkey is 99.9% Muslim after the genocides of the millions of Christians in the 20th century. Christians lived in thier homelands i present day Turkey for a thousand years before the muslim imperialistic hordes decimated the lands in the east. And France never once helped the Christians living in slavery under the Turk Ottomans all those years.

May France go to h**l

31 posted on 09/14/2003 7:12:30 PM PDT by eleni121 (uagmire the 7 Elvi have gotten themselves in.)
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To: nickcarraway
the preamble of the draft treaty establishing the Constitution for Europe - produced by the European Convention in June - has resisted any reference to Christianity.

I am Jewish, and I cannot even convey fully how outraged I am at this fascist arrogance.

The cathedrals and other marvels of architecture, the magnificent art, the music of Bach and Handel --- what inspired them if not Christianity? To deny this is simply outrageous.

They were not even asked to say that Christianity plays a significant role now. They were asked to acknowledge in the constitution, to wit, "the role that Christianity played in the history of Europe." It is in this context that Enlightenment is mentioned.

Manipulation of facts is what makes something propaganda. This denial of the fundamental role of Christianity in the formation and development of European nations and states qualifies as such. That is why I find it justifiable to call it fascist propaganda.

32 posted on 09/15/2003 11:04:44 AM PDT by TopQuark
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To: *Christian_list; *Clash of Civilizatio; *Catholic_Bashing; *Catholic_list
I ment to ping you in the previous post.
33 posted on 09/15/2003 11:08:46 AM PDT by TopQuark
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