Posted on 10/31/2003 9:38:48 AM PST by NYer
EDITORIAL:
One Catholic argues that liturgical dance is precisely what Pope John Paul II likes to see during Mass. Another Catholic criticizes priests for liturgical experimentation.
Sound like a spirited after-Mass conversation at your parish last Sunday? Actually, the combatants in this case are two Vatican officials.
Forty years after the Second Vatican Council called for liturgical renewal, the debate continues over what's acceptable change and what isn't. Consider the positions recently articulated by the two officials.
Many Catholics consider liturgical dance to lie beyond the avant-garde, but it was defended by Pope John Paul II's chief liturgist, Archbishop Piero Marini. Some of his peers object to dancers appearing at events like Mother Teresa's beatification last Sunday. Archbishop Marini responded that dancing is in line with what the pope wants in liturgies because it captures the feel of the Church's universality.
At almost the same time, Cardinal Francis Arinze, prefect of the Vatican Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, lambasted "the over-fertile imagination of an enthusiastic priest who concocts something on Saturday night and inflicts it on the innocent Sunday morning congregation."
He made his comments at the recent national convention of the Federation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions, held in Texas. He lauded much of the renewal of the liturgy, but he is no fan of church renovation. "If a church is built and the seats are arranged as in an amphitheater or as in a banquet, the undeclared emphasis may be horizontal attention to one another, rather than vertical attention to God," he said. "We come to Mass primarily to adore God, not to affirm one another, although this is not excluded."
Attitudes at the Vatican can often seem contradictory:
* While the cardinal praised "the sustained effort to translate the various liturgical texts into the current language of the people," he still longs for Latin to be preserved; and
* While Archbishop Marini eagerly inserts dancing into papal Masses, other Vatican functionaries were recently trying to add anti-dance regulations to a new document on the liturgy, only to be thwarted by other officials.
The next time you hear two Catholics quarreling after Mass about where the tabernacle should be or if altar girls are acceptable, remember that even Vatican executives are divided over matters that have not been settled four decades after the liturgical renewal began.
Did anyone watch the beatification mass? The young girls pictured above, brought up small bowls of oil. That part was tastefully done. However, in the middle of the offertory, a group of women "danced", lifting bowls of flowers - the whole thing set to Indian music. IMHO, that was out of place, inappropriate, tasteless and completely unnecessary.
Apparently, the Pope likes the dancing. There were dancers at his Mass in Mexico City this year.
On the contrary, NYer with all due respect, I thought it was very tastefully done, and completely appropriate for the occasion.
I'd bet Mother Teresa would think so too.
I thought so as well. A Mass is "the Mass, period" - save the Indian music and dancing for afterwards.
What bothered me most was that they actually stopped the mass, switched on the canned Indian music, and had these women swirl around lifting bowls of flowers up and down. It did NOT belong in the middle of the Offertory.
The Indigenous native dancers at the Mexico mass, lead the procession into the church. They did not dance during the offertory!
Juan Diego was an indigenuous indian; hence the dancers make sense. Mother Teresa was an Albanian who served God in India. One set of young dancers appeared in the procession. That should have been sufficient.
Marini served his apprenticeship as personal secretary to Annibale Bugnini, the notorious post- Vatican II liturgical wrecker.
And there you have it!! I strongly doubt that JPII was given ALL the details relevant to the beatification mass. Like Colleen, many of the "shee shee" nonsense that accompanied her mass stood out in total contrast to what she practiced. If anything, I half imagined her wagging a scolding finger at Bugnini for that "disgraceful show in front of the pontiff".
Here is Bishop Marini "on the liturgy":
"“In the old liturgy, in use before the Second Vatican Council, the role of the master of ceremonies consisted in applying a series of rigid norms which could not be changed. Today one cannot organize a celebration without first having thought: who is celebrating, what is being celebrated, where is it being celebrated…. The celebration is the point toward which converge diverse and reciprocally coordinated elements under the guide of that spirit of adaptation that is the soul of post-conciliar reform. Thus it’s a matter of foreseeing and planning the celebration with a view toward the result one wants to obtain. For example, one can’t think of a liturgical action without taking account of the space in which it will take place, the hymns that will be performed… Everything that is thought out and predisposed in view of a celebration can be considered real and proper direction. One finds oneself acting, in a certain way, upon a stage. Liturgy is also a show.”
And here is Francis Cardinal Arinze,:
"People want fidelity at Mass, not novelty, Cardinal Francis Arinze, the Vatican's top liturgy official, said at an international liturgy forum in Washington May 16. "What most of the people who come to Mass are asking for is simply that the Mass is there, according to the approved books. The primary thing they are asking for is not something new," he said. Cardinal Arinze, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, stressed that liturgical renewal in the church calls for "ongoing formation for all of us." He also underlined "the importance of good sacred music" for liturgy, adding, "Nobody can doubt that, because it helps us to worship God, and also it helps us to maintain a sense of the sacred." The Nigerian-born cardinal spoke briefly at the end of a three-hour forum on liturgical renewal in the United States. Sponsored by the Secretariat for Liturgy of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, it marked the 40th anniversary of the Second Vatican Council's 1963 Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy."
Anyone care to weigh in on this issue? Marini vs Arinze
Catholic Ping - let me know if you want on/off this list
Cardinal Arinze. It's like he's talking to me.
Marini wins.
Cues are taken from Papal Masses, which is why the African bishops are upset that there seems to be an attempt to reign in local customs at their Masses.
This is not new; dancing has been common at "international Masses" (i.e., canonizations of saints) for YEARS. Marini has been Papal MC since 1987.
Once would think that, if the Pope were not happy with his liturgical planning, he would have said something in the last sixteen years!
There's that thorny and raging debate over "Collegiality" (the idea that bishops and their conferences should be able to make decisions about areas of church life they know best) and it appears that this Pope is not one to elevate himself over his brother bishops - after all, they also are guided by the Holy Spirit.
Pope's chief liturgist defends use of dance in papal Masses
VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Pope John Paul II's chief liturgist, Archbishop Piero Marini, has defended the use of dance in papal Masses abroad and at the Vatican. Archbishop Marini said liturgical celebrations presided over by the pope have a "universal" character that should accommodate the legitimate cultural elements of Catholic communities around the world. He made the comments in an interview with the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera Oct. 15. Some church officials have criticized Archbishop Marini because they think the papal liturgies in recent years have been too outlandish. Reflecting strong sentiment in some Vatican quarters, a draft version of a recent Vatican document on liturgical norms recommended no dance inside churches -- even outside celebration of the Mass. In contrast, an Oct. 5 beatification Mass in St. Peter's Square featured African dance at the offertory and Indian dance at the consecration. Archbishop Marini, who has designed papal liturgies for 17 years, said the criticism was off the mark. "To introduce dance at a parish Mass in Italy would be pointless. But the celebration (on Oct. 5) was a missionary celebration, for the beatification of three people who evangelized Africa and Asia," Archbishop Marini said.
That is seriously contrary to the traditional understanding of the Mass. Even the NCReporter acknowledges "To take one example, Medina frowns on liturgical dance, but papal Masses organized by Marini are notorious for Broadway-style routines."
"But the celebration (on Oct. 5) was a missionary celebration, for the beatification of three people who evangelized Africa and Asia," Archbishop Marini said."
So did those people who evangelized Africa and Asia come to incorporate the belief system and practices of the natives they were evangelizing, or did they come to bring them the Mass and the Eucharist and the Gospel?
If in the future dance is incorporated in the Mass and becomes tradition, what would happen if one was evangelizing a country that looked at dance as worship as an abomination? Like maybe in an Orthodox or Muslim country? And how do our Orthodox brothers and sisters view this?
LOL!! Niner, the Pope has who he wants as MC. He's fully aware of the role, and the implications of what Marini does.
Your posts reveal a profound ignorance of the PR value of a Papal Mass. Try again.
Everything I have read about Cardinal Marini has said that he and Pope John Paul II are very close friends and that Marini reflects JPII's own views on the (V-2) liturgy, which is why His Holiness awarded him a (ugh!) red hat.
I strongly doubt that JPII was not given the relevant information on the order of the ceremony. Or, at any rate, if the pope did not want liturgical dance at Papal Masses, he would have told Card. Marini not to do again after the first time.
I think you owe your pastor an apology. Anyway, if your pastor has the girls dress in saris, everything will be alright.
We disagree.
The purpose of allowing dance during the Mass is to stick a middle finger in the air toward folks like Arinze and Ratzinger--and it is done deliberately by Marini, who is a suspect.
There is NO SUCH THING as "liturgical dance" in the Roman Catholic Church.
Tell that to the Jesuits at St. Joseph's in Philadelphia. Take note of the band behind the altar.
They don't need one; they've got the "Book", front and center on the altar. You know "sola scripta".
Similar things happen at every single large papal Mass. It is far from an anomaly. Besides, JPII knew exactly what he was getting when he made Marini MC for all his Masses. It's not a surprise. Let's face it, JPII is a lot closer to Cardinal Mahoney than he is to the Latin Mass when it comes to liturgy.
Not really. His liturgies set the tone for the Mass in every parish around the world. There is no more important task for the pope than this. The example he sets is bare-breasted lectorettes, dancing pagans, and clowns on stilts receiving communion. Think of all the very worst abuses you've seen or heard of. They didn't happen in Albany generally -- they happen at papal Masses. JPII's Masses follow the rubrics less than any diocese in the world, probably, and he is the one setting the example for everyone else.
This recent thread described Marini and the ridiculousness of his episcopal position:
Does The Holy Trinity need a show? This stand mocks the solemnity of worshipful homage to God and advances secular humanism to new heights.. Service at mass is to be spiritual communion, not a circus. Furthermore, departure from solemn worship indicates to those participating that the liturgy is not to be taken seriously; hence, all the chattering in the sanctuary.It's no wonder that the tabernacle has been removed from most "altars" and relegated to the sidelines.
Good point, Rogator.
Having moved to a new city recently, I found that I had to do some moving about the local diocesan churches. I found that those who have situated the tabernacle prominently in the center of the (back) altar, display the hours of confession, and have priests who actually preach a sermon about what people must do to prepare for Heaven are churches in which I feel comfortable.
One had a priest who dances about during mass and tells jokes instead of offering a homily. Some, of course, like liturgy mocked in a humanist way, but then they like situation "comedies" on television.
Apparently this congregation believes the central object of worship in this "building" are the pipes of their new organ.
The Tabernacle has been relegated to some obscure place, therefore strangers passing through to worship can't know in which direction their genuflection should be directed.
Our Holy Father has squandered his 25 year papacy, and he and several predecessors have much for to answer to our Maker.
Okay ... I'm game. What did the Holy Father neglect during his 25 years as Pope?
Perhaps I forgot to ping you to this thread ... A New and Wiser Generation Will Follow The Pope and Mother Teresa
"Pope John Paul II contributed considerably to the retreat of these advocates of a Church tht would have been un-Catholic by means of cutting ties to Tradition, and a reinterpretation of scriptural Revelation. This Pope personally helped put out the socialistic arson of the liberation theologians. He ended the activist branch of that movement being carried on by priests become politicians. The chaplains of liberation theology in South America were ordered to make a choice between their priesthood and their politics. A similar choice was offered the Democratic member of the US Congress, Fr. Robert Drinan, S.J., who, true to the original spirit of the society he belongs to, chose obedience.
Priest-theologians such as Fr. Charles Curan and Fr. Hans Kung, after years of vandalism within Catholic higher education, were stripped of their official recognition as Catholic theologians. The movement toward a new, updated Church grafted onto the new modernist heresy was gradually deprived of its validity and viability by statement after statement of this Pope and the officials of his various congregations. The lobbying for a third Vatican Council by the theologians and educators, which reached a peak at the Notre Dame convocation of June 1977, was abandoned after that gathering, as it became apparent that were anothere cuncil held it would be in the hands of Catholic loyalists, and not un-Catholic theorits. Under Pope John Paul II, the bid of modernist theologians for recognition as a third magisterium faltered and failed.
Whereas before his pontificate the attitude had been one of almost full noninterference in local bishops' permissiveness toward heterodoxy in thought and practice, Pope John Paul II and his spokesmen, through word and representation, especially at the synods of bishops, began a countercurrent of orthodoxy. The Catechism of the Catholic Church was one result of this aggressive change of tactics. This work ran counter to the desires of proponents of a "collegiality" that would leave the Pope a mere president of the board, with an advisory role at most. The naysayers tried to block the Catechism and failed.
But of all his accomplishments, this Holy Father's ability to transmit his enthusiasm for genuine Catholic spirituality and morality to youth was by far his greatest bequest to those inheriting Catholic faith. in the 21st century. In a sense he snatched the present young generation out of the hands of those who aimed to make of those yung people disciples of their own tired errors costumed as the latest thing. The Pope made sure that tactic would fail. He did so by canonizing dozens of saints who achieved the honor of canonization not by repudiating the old ways of sanctity, but by living them in their own eras.
Today's young Catholics recognize the genuine character of a Mother Teresa, who was fiercely traditional in her faith, deeply charitable in her living of it. This generation is rejecting the siren songs of radical feminism and false liberation.
Those young Catholics who seize upon anything will seek and fid it in the spirit of Pope John Paul II, not that of dissenters who nearly a half-century ago stirred revolt at the Catholic University of America. Few young people are disciples of Georgetown's Fr. Drinan of Notre Dames's Fr. Richard McBrien. But there are scores of today's young Catholics who follow the lead of Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa. Few ever know what has happened to Fr. Theodore Hesburgh, Fr. Curran, Fr. Kung."
Pope John Paul was brought up with sound religious training and given a sound knowledge of the teachings of the Church, but he has failed to sufficiently reflect on them in order to adequately comprehend them.
As a consequence he has chosen a path of diplomacy, false unity, and false ecumenism. John Paul's desire to reunify the Orthodox churches with the Roman Catholic Church has long been known. His extremely strong desire to heal schism, and not be the cause of schism, has thus allowed great de facto schism to exist within the Church.
He has gradually allowed dilution of faith practices by catering to the liberal element of the Church turning many poorly instructed believers away from unity with the Church. He has allowed the unfaithful remaining in the Church to proliferate thus allowing great weakening of the Church's structure and creditability.
He has reigned during the greatest period of mass destruction of humankind in the history of the world. He has allowed the increase of birth control practices and birth control mentality through the omission of discipline. He has also allowed apostasy, heresy, and schism to exist and grow within the Church.
John Paul is undoubtedly the most traveled pope in the history of the Church. He has high personal popularity worldwide. But, his formal teachings are commonly and easily rejected because of his failure to discipline cardinals and bishops. He has failed to understand the instructions Jesus gave to the first Peter . As designated spiritual leader, John Paul II is guilty of the grave "sin of omission" by failing to discipline cardinals and bishops of the Church who openly speak against formal Catholic teachings.
These same prelates in their turn fail to discipline those subject to their authority who teach error or fail to teach truth.
Can you cite an example of how he has catered to the liberal element?
This offshoot seems to think it is a franchise rather than an integral part of the Church. Bishops allow clown masses, polka masses, balloon masses and, in general, allows a mockery to be made of solemn relious liturgical decorum.
Why has the Church in America not been reined in?
I can name many bishops, but Rembert Weakland comes to mind. He's no longer a bishop, having either retired or died, but his diocese was a travesty.
I say that our pope is to blame because by not insisting upon strict adherence to liturgical edicts he has catered to the liberal element. Rome edicted that altar "girls" would not be permitted, but still we see this disobedience every Sunday. Rome looks the other way.
And too, there is the matter of allowing American bishops to permit the Tabernacle to be moved from the center of the altar to someplace where it can't be seen. For all these bishops care it could be moved to a restroom. I blame the pope, because he's the boss.
<<<< Y A W N >>>>
How long has it been since you attended mass in your local catholic church? When is the last time your parish priest offered a clown mass? I've seen the one picture posted by Land of the Irish to countless threads but never witnessed one in my 'liberal' diocese.
As for this pope, he is the ONLY religious leader to publish a document on the topic of homosexual unions. Look around you! Look at the society in which we live - secularism, humanism, materialism and sexual liberation hold sway. The culture of death - the right to kill your baby or your grandmother, the right to sex of any kind without social criticism, the right to repress religious thought and speech of others because someone finds it intolerant.
Thanks to this pope, hopes for a new Catholic Church dedicated to contraception, abortion, divorce, homosexuality and female priests have been dashed. After 25 years, the myth that these steps represent irrestible progress has also faded. This pope has consistently upheld catholic teaching and traditions.
To quote Townhall.com columnist, Maggie Gallagher:
America is disfigured by high rates of sexual disorders, including unnecessary divorce, unmarried childbearing, sexually transmitted diseases, a pornographic culture, and the progressive normalization of alternative sexual lifestyles, along with the sudden real threat that courts will impose gay marriage. A Vatican statement simply repeating a 2,000-year-old ethical tradition about marriage and sex has prompted a flurry of threats, overt and implicit, around what we used to call the Free World.
Hate-speech codes intended to prevent violence and harassment are being directed at Catholics simply for being Catholic. The Irish Council for Civil Liberties has warned priests and bishops they may face charges for simply quoting or handing out the Vatican statement, according to the Irish Times. "The wording is very strong and certainly goes against the spirit of the legislation," warned Aisling Reidy, director of the ICCL. Violators face six months in jail.
In 2001, the Dutch government considered charging the pope with violating its speech codes before concluding that, as head of state, he had sovereign immunity, according to press accounts. Andrew Sullivan wonders aloud why the U.S. government does not strip the Catholic Church of its charitable status. One of the top Democratic candidates, Sen. John Kerry, charged the Vatican with "crossing the line" violating the separation of church and state for expressing its views of Catholics' obligations.
This pope will go down in history as one of the greatest popes that has ever served on the throne of Peter.
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