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DEBATES OVER LITURGY: In this corner and in that
The Evangelist ^ | October 23, 2003

Posted on 10/31/2003, 5:38:48 PM by NYer

EDITORIAL:

One Catholic argues that liturgical dance is precisely what Pope John Paul II likes to see during Mass. Another Catholic criticizes priests for liturgical experimentation.

Sound like a spirited after-Mass conversation at your parish last Sunday? Actually, the combatants in this case are two Vatican officials.

Forty years after the Second Vatican Council called for liturgical renewal, the debate continues over what's acceptable change and what isn't. Consider the positions recently articulated by the two officials.

Many Catholics consider liturgical dance to lie beyond the avant-garde, but it was defended by Pope John Paul II's chief liturgist, Archbishop Piero Marini. Some of his peers object to dancers appearing at events like Mother Teresa's beatification last Sunday. Archbishop Marini responded that dancing is in line with what the pope wants in liturgies because it captures the feel of the Church's universality.

At almost the same time, Cardinal Francis Arinze, prefect of the Vatican Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, lambasted "the over-fertile imagination of an enthusiastic priest who concocts something on Saturday night and inflicts it on the innocent Sunday morning congregation."

He made his comments at the recent national convention of the Federation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions, held in Texas. He lauded much of the renewal of the liturgy, but he is no fan of church renovation. "If a church is built and the seats are arranged as in an amphitheater or as in a banquet, the undeclared emphasis may be horizontal attention to one another, rather than vertical attention to God," he said. "We come to Mass primarily to adore God, not to affirm one another, although this is not excluded."

Attitudes at the Vatican can often seem contradictory:

* While the cardinal praised "the sustained effort to translate the various liturgical texts into the current language of the people," he still longs for Latin to be preserved; and

* While Archbishop Marini eagerly inserts dancing into papal Masses, other Vatican functionaries were recently trying to add anti-dance regulations to a new document on the liturgy, only to be thwarted by other officials.

The next time you hear two Catholics quarreling after Mass about where the tabernacle should be or if altar girls are acceptable, remember that even Vatican executives are divided over matters that have not been settled four decades after the liturgical renewal began.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion; History; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: dance; icel; latin; liturgy
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1 posted on 10/31/2003, 5:38:48 PM by NYer
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To: american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; ...

The Pope blesses Indian girls during the beatification ceremony of Mother Teresa in Saint Peter's Square October 19, 2003.

Did anyone watch the beatification mass? The young girls pictured above, brought up small bowls of oil. That part was tastefully done. However, in the middle of the offertory, a group of women "danced", lifting bowls of flowers - the whole thing set to Indian music. IMHO, that was out of place, inappropriate, tasteless and completely unnecessary.

2 posted on 10/31/2003, 5:54:17 PM by NYer ("Close your ears to the whisperings of hell and bravely oppose its onslaughts." ---St Clare Assisi)
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To: NYer
IMHO, that was out of place, inappropriate, tasteless and completely unnecessary.

Apparently, the Pope likes the dancing. There were dancers at his Mass in Mexico City this year.

On the contrary, NYer with all due respect, I thought it was very tastefully done, and completely appropriate for the occasion.

I'd bet Mother Teresa would think so too.

3 posted on 10/31/2003, 6:00:09 PM by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter. You will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: NYer
the whole thing set to Indian music. IMHO, that was out of place, inappropriate, tasteless and completely unnecessary.

I thought so as well. A Mass is "the Mass, period" - save the Indian music and dancing for afterwards.

4 posted on 10/31/2003, 6:30:21 PM by american colleen
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To: NYer
I think the rule is that in some cultures, dancing is reverent and thus allowed under the inculturation concept. However, in western cultures, dancing has carnal overtones, so it is not allowed in the mass (except that my parish had an execrable liturgical dance last Pentecost).
5 posted on 10/31/2003, 6:53:10 PM by Unam Sanctam
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To: american colleen; sinkspur
I thought so as well. A Mass is "the Mass, period" - save the Indian music and dancing for afterwards.

What bothered me most was that they actually stopped the mass, switched on the canned Indian music, and had these women swirl around lifting bowls of flowers up and down. It did NOT belong in the middle of the Offertory.

The Indigenous native dancers at the Mexico mass, lead the procession into the church. They did not dance during the offertory!

Juan Diego was an indigenuous indian; hence the dancers make sense. Mother Teresa was an Albanian who served God in India. One set of young dancers appeared in the procession. That should have been sufficient.

6 posted on 10/31/2003, 7:07:50 PM by NYer ("Close your ears to the whisperings of hell and bravely oppose its onslaughts." ---St Clare Assisi)
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To: NYer
I'm glad you commented on this issue, I saw it at the time and was surprised and confused... what happened to "the do-it yourself Mass has ended"? Mother T. wasn't even a fan of Communion in the hand, I wonder what she'd think of dancers and canned Indian music at a Mass in her honor?
7 posted on 10/31/2003, 7:21:22 PM by american colleen
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To: NYer; Askel5
Many Catholics consider liturgical dance to lie beyond the avant-garde, but it was defended by Pope John Paul II's chief liturgist, Archbishop Piero Marini. Some of his peers object to dancers appearing at events like Mother Teresa's beatification last Sunday. Archbishop Marini responded that dancing is in line with what the pope wants in liturgies because it captures the feel of the Church's universality.

Marini served his apprenticeship as personal secretary to Annibale Bugnini, the notorious post- Vatican II liturgical wrecker.

8 posted on 10/31/2003, 7:36:42 PM by Romulus (Nothing really good ever happened after 1789.)
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To: Romulus; american colleen
Marini served his apprenticeship as personal secretary to Annibale Bugnini, the notorious post- Vatican II liturgical wrecker.

And there you have it!! I strongly doubt that JPII was given ALL the details relevant to the beatification mass. Like Colleen, many of the "shee shee" nonsense that accompanied her mass stood out in total contrast to what she practiced. If anything, I half imagined her wagging a scolding finger at Bugnini for that "disgraceful show in front of the pontiff".

9 posted on 10/31/2003, 9:07:22 PM by NYer ("Close your ears to the whisperings of hell and bravely oppose its onslaughts." ---St Clare Assisi)
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To: NYer
You are correct, NY. "Inculturation" is favored by Marini, who happens to be a suspect--but he has a job. Actually, JPII doesn't personally approve of every thing that will or will not happen at Papal Masses; now and then he will intervene, but not often.

If one wishes to make the argument that worship-dance is acceptable and common in the sub-continent of India, then they should be able to demonstrate that it is acceptable and common at Hindu and Buddhist worship.

Any takers?
10 posted on 10/31/2003, 9:54:08 PM by ninenot (Democrats make mistakes. RINOs don't correct them.--Chesterton (adapted by Ninenot))
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To: NYer
New Liturgies. Bishop Piero Marini doesn’t like TV
11 posted on 10/31/2003, 9:57:14 PM by Romulus (Nothing really good ever happened after 1789.)
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To: Romulus; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; ...
Excellent article!! Thanks for the link.

Here is Bishop Marini "on the liturgy":

"“In the old liturgy, in use before the Second Vatican Council, the role of the master of ceremonies consisted in applying a series of rigid norms which could not be changed. Today one cannot organize a celebration without first having thought: who is celebrating, what is being celebrated, where is it being celebrated…. The celebration is the point toward which converge diverse and reciprocally coordinated elements under the guide of that spirit of adaptation that is the soul of post-conciliar reform. Thus it’s a matter of foreseeing and planning the celebration with a view toward the result one wants to obtain. For example, one can’t think of a liturgical action without taking account of the space in which it will take place, the hymns that will be performed… Everything that is thought out and predisposed in view of a celebration can be considered real and proper direction. One finds oneself acting, in a certain way, upon a stage. Liturgy is also a show.

And here is Francis Cardinal Arinze,:

"People want fidelity at Mass, not novelty, Cardinal Francis Arinze, the Vatican's top liturgy official, said at an international liturgy forum in Washington May 16. "What most of the people who come to Mass are asking for is simply that the Mass is there, according to the approved books. The primary thing they are asking for is not something new," he said. Cardinal Arinze, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, stressed that liturgical renewal in the church calls for "ongoing formation for all of us." He also underlined "the importance of good sacred music" for liturgy, adding, "Nobody can doubt that, because it helps us to worship God, and also it helps us to maintain a sense of the sacred." The Nigerian-born cardinal spoke briefly at the end of a three-hour forum on liturgical renewal in the United States. Sponsored by the Secretariat for Liturgy of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, it marked the 40th anniversary of the Second Vatican Council's 1963 Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy."

Anyone care to weigh in on this issue? Marini vs Arinze

Catholic Ping - let me know if you want on/off this list

12 posted on 10/31/2003, 11:44:40 PM by NYer ("Close your ears to the whisperings of hell and bravely oppose its onslaughts." ---St Clare Assisi)
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To: NYer
"What most of the people who come to Mass are asking for is simply that the Mass is there, according to the approved books. The primary thing they are asking for is not something new,"

Cardinal Arinze. It's like he's talking to me.

13 posted on 10/31/2003, 11:47:36 PM by NeoCaveman (This Halloween Voinovich is dressing up as a Republican)
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To: NYer
Marini is the Pope's Master of Ceremonies.

Marini wins.

14 posted on 10/31/2003, 11:52:15 PM by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter. You will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: ninenot
Actually, JPII doesn't personally approve of every thing that will or will not happen at Papal Masses; now and then he will intervene, but not often.

Cues are taken from Papal Masses, which is why the African bishops are upset that there seems to be an attempt to reign in local customs at their Masses.

This is not new; dancing has been common at "international Masses" (i.e., canonizations of saints) for YEARS. Marini has been Papal MC since 1987.

Once would think that, if the Pope were not happy with his liturgical planning, he would have said something in the last sixteen years!

15 posted on 10/31/2003, 11:56:48 PM by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter. You will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: NYer
"Today one cannot organize a celebration without first having thought: who is celebrating, what is being celebrated, where is it being celebrated…."

This guy just doesn't get what the Mass is:

Christ is the chief celebrant
Christ's sacrifice is being "celebrated", offered and consumed
Christ's body in the House of God is where it is being celebrated

"The celebration is the point toward which converge diverse and reciprocally coordinated elements under the guide of that spirit of adaptation that is the soul of post-conciliar reform."

Crap! there is nothing diverse about the ONE, IMMEMORIAL and PERPETUAL sacrifice of Christ - there is only ever ONE MASS!

"Thus it’s a matter of foreseeing and planning the celebration with a view toward the result one wants to obtain."

Where is God in all this - what does He want to obtain from the Mass?

"One finds oneself acting, in a certain way, upon a stage. Liturgy is also a show."

This man's faith is seriously deficient - was Calvary a show or spectacle of entertainment that God put on for the bystanders?
16 posted on 11/1/2003, 12:19:49 AM by Tantumergo
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To: sinkspur
Once would think that, if the Pope were not happy with his liturgical planning, he would have said something in the last sixteen years!

There's that thorny and raging debate over "Collegiality" (the idea that bishops and their conferences should be able to make decisions about areas of church life they know best) and it appears that this Pope is not one to elevate himself over his brother bishops - after all, they also are guided by the Holy Spirit.

Pope's chief liturgist defends use of dance in papal Masses

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Pope John Paul II's chief liturgist, Archbishop Piero Marini, has defended the use of dance in papal Masses abroad and at the Vatican. Archbishop Marini said liturgical celebrations presided over by the pope have a "universal" character that should accommodate the legitimate cultural elements of Catholic communities around the world. He made the comments in an interview with the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera Oct. 15. Some church officials have criticized Archbishop Marini because they think the papal liturgies in recent years have been too outlandish. Reflecting strong sentiment in some Vatican quarters, a draft version of a recent Vatican document on liturgical norms recommended no dance inside churches -- even outside celebration of the Mass. In contrast, an Oct. 5 beatification Mass in St. Peter's Square featured African dance at the offertory and Indian dance at the consecration. Archbishop Marini, who has designed papal liturgies for 17 years, said the criticism was off the mark. "To introduce dance at a parish Mass in Italy would be pointless. But the celebration (on Oct. 5) was a missionary celebration, for the beatification of three people who evangelized Africa and Asia," Archbishop Marini said.

17 posted on 11/1/2003, 12:20:52 AM by american colleen
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To: NYer
I'm on Arinze's side. Thirty years of experimentation have made me weary of it. The mass ought not be treated as a play like "Hamlet" where the "director" feels free to add to or subtract from the text.
18 posted on 11/1/2003, 12:22:06 AM by RobbyS (XP)
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To: Tantumergo
"One finds oneself acting, in a certain way, upon a stage. Liturgy is also a show."

That is seriously contrary to the traditional understanding of the Mass. Even the NCReporter acknowledges "To take one example, Medina frowns on liturgical dance, but papal Masses organized by Marini are notorious for Broadway-style routines."

19 posted on 11/1/2003, 12:24:17 AM by american colleen
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To: RobbyS
Ya. When I think about it, to incorporate different spiritual customs of different native spiritualities into the Mass is a recipe for disaster if you look ahead to the future. Why just stick to dance? Another cardinal might think dance is fine (now that it is incorporated into the Mass it is a tradition) and decide that the Mass should incorporate another spiritual custom to show how the Mass is alive and embraces all nations.

"But the celebration (on Oct. 5) was a missionary celebration, for the beatification of three people who evangelized Africa and Asia," Archbishop Marini said."

So did those people who evangelized Africa and Asia come to incorporate the belief system and practices of the natives they were evangelizing, or did they come to bring them the Mass and the Eucharist and the Gospel?

If in the future dance is incorporated in the Mass and becomes tradition, what would happen if one was evangelizing a country that looked at dance as worship as an abomination? Like maybe in an Orthodox or Muslim country? And how do our Orthodox brothers and sisters view this?

20 posted on 11/1/2003, 12:36:04 AM by american colleen
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