EPISCOPAL GAYNESS CRUMBLES CHURCH UNITY

private discussion list | 2 November 2003 | J. Grant Swank, Jr.

[ahadams2]

EPISCOPAL GAYNESS CRUMBLES CHURCH UNITY

By J. Grant Swank, Jr. Nov 2, 2003, 01:00

The rest of Christendom can’t stand the present gay move of the Episcopal / Anglican Church.

Over years, homosexuals have infiltrated all the way to the higher-ups of the Episcopal Church. Then they won the ballot at the annual conclave. Heterosexuals just said their prayers but did little preventative, hence the present gay take-over.

It’s not biblical and the homosexual enthusiasts know it. They don’t care. All they want is power. It’s power first, middle and last — alpha to omega. Power. But their power is destructive to Christian truth. Again, they don’t care.

Now that apostasy has poisoned that segment of the church, those not into poison are moving far away from the homosexual infiltration and anything that smacks of it. Biblical Episcopalians are forming their own denomination; they say the split has already happened for the hurt is much too deep to continue appearances as being one.

Biblical believers of other segments of Christendom are doing the same. They are separating. "Come out from among them and be ye separate. . ." They’re letting it be known by broadcasting it via media.

According to the AP’s Richard Ostling, "Greek Orthodox Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsburgh said Robinson’s supporters are betraying Christianity’s one ‘source of truth, the Bible in the holy tradition of the church’ and declared that Orthodoxy’s official talks with the Episcopal Church are ‘defunct.’

"Says another longtime Orthodox participant in the discussions, the Rev. Paul Schneirla: ‘I cannot imagine going on.’"

Then there are the spiritual heads of the North American Orthodox branches. They "lamented that Christianity’s 2,000 year tradition on marriage is being ‘questioned challenged or denied’ in society and in the Episcopal Anglican Church."

As for the Roman Catholic Church, a "Catholic bishop withdrew permission for the Episcopal Diocese of Florida to use one of his churches for a ceremony because the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church planned to participate."

And the beat goes on. "At the Vatican, Pope John Paul II told. . .Archbishop Rowan Williams, that ‘new and serious difficulties have arisen on the path to unity.’ The pope said the problems ‘extend to essential matters of faith and morals.’"

Though the Roman Church has its own problems with sexuality, it is seeking to deal with those problems. It officially is also not moving from the biblical position.

"The Vatican’s doctrinal overseer, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, sent warm greetings to this month’s Dallas rally of 2,700 conservatives planning a break with the Episcopal Church."

The Rev. Richard John Neuhaus of First Things magazine, a conservative Catholic "long engaged in ecumenical matters, said he sees a ‘big pothole in the road’ for Catholic-Anglican talks. He says that henceforth ‘Catholics can’t be certain whether Anglicans speak with a single voice.’"

The homosexual move is destructive for it cuts directly through the biblical faith. In that, it is not only destructive, it is demonic.

[ahadams2]

Ping.

[PFKEY]

I believe this is just a continuation of the slippery slope and that the church will reconciled with its members and all will be well within the Episcopal church.

There will always be discent but it will be minor.

[polemikos]

T minus 12 HRS 15 MIN 0 SEC and counting . . .

[Eala]

I believe this is just a continuation of the slippery slope and that the church will reconciled with its members and all will be well within what remains of the Episcopal church.

The church may be reconciled with those who remain its members -- but there are a lot of us who have left over the past 35 years of its descent. After 20+ years in my APCK parish it would be hard to go back, even if they were fully reformed.

T-5Hr30Min

[Archie Bunker on steroids]

One of the strongest posts as it talks about the beauracracy being infiltrated by these wicked sodomites. Thanks for pointing me to the ELCA mailing list also...drafting resignation letter this week.

[soopadoop]

but erm...god made homosexuals too right...and the bishop is a good person...i don't think he will preach his sexuality, just his belief. your hate makes you unchristian.

[drstevej]

GRANT SWANK Alert

[AnAmericanMother]

You're a little bit behind the fair here, but I'll try to bring you up to speed.

Bish Vicki IS preaching his homosexuality, and has been doing so since this whole flap started. He has compared himself to Jesus, and has stated that he considers sex with his partner a sacrament. It's pretty scary stuff.

God made us, but our sins are all our own and a consequence of the Fall. Homosexual conduct (not inclination) is just another sin like gluttony, wrath, pride, etc. The difference here is that the Bish and his supporters aren't saying, "yeah, we're sinners too and all in need of God's grace." They are trying to convince everybody that homosexual conduct, clearly and specifically condemned in both the Old and New Testaments, is not a sin. In other words, he's saying "I don't see the problem here." That's where the real problem with revising the word of God to suit one's own pet sins lies. I don't think anybody here hates homosexuals - just what they are doing to our church. That it is deliberate is at this point past reasonable doubt.

[AnAmericanMother]

Oh, yeah, and welcome to Free Republic.

[soopadoop]

thank you for your welcome, although i won't be posting here a lot; simply replied because the hate this has generated has made me feel numb with doubt in the existence of good people on the earth.

i know i won't be welcome here because of my views on sexuality, the fact that the supression of variant sexuality is the true evil (which leads to much worse stuff; imagine being under the impression, having not hurt anyone in your life time, that you are evil in your biological makeup - i can imagine it pushing good people into bad things). and i know i won't be welcome in asking for proof and statistics that loosening the noose on homosexuals is a bad thing; and asking for links to were he advertises his sexual encounters as holy and above other peoples.

you lot would have a good thing going on with the church if you concentrated on the real evil; as in, stuff that hurts people.

[AnAmericanMother]

You really need to understand that just because people disagree with you is not the same as hatred. Calling us all haters is just a crutch and an easy way out, to avoid looking at the real issue here.

Don't you see that, by pretending to yourself that everybody hates you, you can ignore the message?

That message is that biology is not destiny, that we are all sinners and that our conduct must necessarily be displeasing to a perfect God -- but that we will be given the strength to resist that which is evil if we will honestly and prayerfully seek it. Surrendering without opposition - "giving up without a fight" - to the mere biological urges, whatever they may be, is a rejection of the promise that we all can overcome our sins through God's intervention on our behalf. That is just as true of sloth and gluttony as it is of lust.

But sexuality outside the God-given order of a man and a woman in the sacrament of matrimony DOES hurt people. Just look around.

[drstevej]

***the fact that the supression of variant sexuality is the true evil***

Is this true also of pedophilia? bestiality? necrophilia?

[Archie Bunker on steroids]

Read Romans1 Soapadropper

[sitetest]

Dear drstevej,

"Is this true also of pedophilia? bestiality? necrophilia?"

You're just a homophobic intergenerational-love-hating narrow-minded bigot. And why do you think God made chickens anyway??


sitetest

[soopadoop]

no, because as you know, the three things that you listed are non-consensual.

[drstevej]

***no, because as you know, the three things that you listed are non-consensual.***

Don't ya think the dog riding your leg is asking for it?

So is incest cool with you since it can be consensual?

What if a person in their will specifically made a provision for their exhumation for a roll in the hay? That's consent isn't it?

[soopadoop]

*looks around*...i can't see any particular cases of homosexuals hurting the natural order of society..care to point me in the right direction?

i am not pretending that everyone hates me, please don't misunderstand - if my terminology was flawed, sorry. i think this type of talk does promote hate though. despite all this "homosexuals taking over" talk which has come with the bishop's ordination, i experience homophobia everywhere i go, in the religious and the non-religious. homophobes shouldn't worry; i still get cornered, completely unnecessarily considering i feel i am a decent person, into feeling that i am not a good person because of my feelings.

if it's not hate, good. but it's not love.

to your third paragraph, i can see your line of argument but it is flawed; perhaps not on biblical levels, but on conscience levels. fighting against biology is all very well and good when it is stopping yourself from being hateful, and rejecting others. but i see very little reason to stop when i am causing no pain, as the very act is an act of love, generally. i don't believe in becoming a slave to lust; i think having multiple sexual partners is wrong because of the hurt it causes to others. i probably have very similar feelings on the nature of relationships to you lot, although with the obvious exception that i think love should not be chained if when unchained, it would make people feel better...please explain to me how me comitting sexual acts with a member of my own sex damages society. i have never done so, but if i was to, how would this be bad? please respond to this with a statistic or evidence, and not with a 2000 year old scripture. take this how you want; i mean it in the way that i will not be convinced with bible quotes.

[soopadoop]

1. no, because i don't think the dog riding my leg is able to make a rational decision regarding whether it wants to embark on a fully comitted relationship with me. and since i can't ask it, i'll assume any action on anyone's part will be non-consensual.

2. no, because if incest is consensual in some cases, i think it is due to the elder, or more dominant of the two involved in the relationship, can be accused of influencing the submissive excessively. as in socialising them into wanting to have sex with them. in short, it's very different to the way homosexual relationships generally work, as homosexual relationships really go the same way as heterosexual relationships.

3. is it? if i told you two years ago that you could have a roll in the hay with me, is it consensual if you forcibly do it today? a person's will on one day, sexually i mean, could be very different to the next. it is different to handing your money out to your close relatives under guidance and thought, probably with legal professionals.

4. you disgust me.

[drstevej]

YOUR POST #7 - 

your hate makes you unchristian.

YOUR POST # 18

please respond to this with a statistic or evidence, and not with a 2000 year old scripture. take this how you want; i mean it in the way that i will not be convinced with bible quotes.

You want to proclaim someone unchristian yet don't want your views evaluated by the Bible.

How conveeeenient.