THE TRUE CHURCH

Where is this one true Church? What is this one true Church like? What are the marks by which this one true Church may be known? You may well ask such questions. Give me your attention, and I will provide you with some answers.

1. The one true Church IS COMPOSED OF ALL BELIEVERS IN THE LORD JESUS. It is made up of all God's elect - of all converted men and women - of all true Christians. In whomsoever we can discern the election of God the Father, the sprinkling of the blood of God the Son, the sanctifying work of God the Spirit, in that person we see a member of Christ's true Church.

2. It is a Church OF WHICH ALL THE MEMBERS HAVE THE SAME MARKS. They are all born again of the Spirit; they all possess "repentance towards God, faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ," and holiness of life and conversation. They all hate sin, and they all love Christ. (They worship differently, and after various fashions; some worship with a form of prayer, and some with none; some worship kneeling, and some standing; but they all worship with one heart.) They are all led by one Spirit; they all build upon one foundation; they all draw their religion from one single book - that is the Bible. They are all joined to one great center - that is Jesus Christ. They all even now can say with one heart, "Hallelujah;" and they can all respond with one heart and voice, Amen and Amen.

3. It is a Church WHICH IS DEPENDENT UPON NO MINISTERS UPON EARTH, however much it values those who preach the gospel to its members. The life of its members does not hang upon Church-membership, or baptism, or the Lord's Supper - although they highly value these things when they are to be had. But it has only one Great Head - one Shepherd, one chief Bishop - and that is Jesus Christ. He alone, By His Spirit, admits the members of this Church, though ministers may show the door. Till He opens the door no man on earth can open it - neither bishops, nor presbyters, nor convocations, nor synods. Once let a man repent and believe the gospel, and that moment he becomes a member of this Church. Like the penitent thief, he may have no opportunity of being baptized; but he has that which is far better than any water-baptism - the baptism of the Spirit. He may not be able to receive the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper;but he eats Christ's body and drinks Christ's blood by faith every day he lives, and no minister on earth can prevent him. He may be ex-communicated by ordained men, and cut off from the outward ordinances of the professing Church; but all the ordained men in the world cannot shut him out of the true Church.

It is a Church whose existence does not depend on forms, ceremonies, cathedrals, churches, chapels, pulpits, fonts, vestments, organs, endowments, money, kings, governments, magistrates or any act of favor whatsoever from the hand of man. It has often lived on and continued when all these things have been taken from it. It has often been driven into the wilderness, or into dens and caves of the earth, by those who ought to have been its friends. Its existence depends on nothing but the presence of Christ and His Spirit; and they being ever with it, the Church cannot die.

4. This is the Church TO WHICH THE SCRIPTURAL TITLES OF PRESENT HONOR AND PRIVILEGE, AND THE PROMISES OF FUTURE GLORY ESPECIALLY BELONG; this is the Body of Christ; this is the flock of Christ; this is the household of faith and the family of God; this is God's building, God's foundation, and the temple of the Holy Ghost. This is the Church of the first-born, whose names are written in heaven; this is the royal priesthood, the chosen generation, the peculiar people, the purchased possession, the habitation of God, the light of the world, the salt and the wheat of the earth; this is the "Holy Catholic Church" of the Apostles' Creed; this is the "One Catholic and Apostolic Church" of the Nicene Creed; this is that Church to which the Lord Jesus promises "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it," and to which He says, "I am with you always, even unto the end of the world"(Matt.16:18; 28:2).

5. This is the only Church WHICH POSSESSES TRUE UNITY. Its members are entirely agreed on all the weightier matters of religion, for they are all taught by one Spirit. About God, and Christ, and the Spirit, and sin, and their own hearts, and faith, and repentance, and necessity of holiness, and the value of the Bible, and the importance of prayer, and the resurrection, and judgment to come - about all these points they are of one mind. Take three or four of them, strangers to one another, from the remotest corners of the earth; examine them separately on these points: you will find them all one judgment.

6. This is the only Church WHICH POSSESSES TRUE SANCTITY. Its members are all holy. They are not merely holy by profession, holy in name, and holy in the judgment of charity; they are all holy in act, and deed, and reality, and life, and truth. They are all more or less conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. No unholy man belongs to this Church.

7. This is the only Church WHICH IS TRULY CATHOLIC. It is not the Church of any one nation or people; its members are to be found in every part of the world where the gospel is received and believed. It is not confined within the limits of any one country, or pent up within the pale of any particular forms of outward government. In it there is no difference between Jew and Greek, black man and white, Episcopalian and Presbyterian - but faith in Christ is all. Its members will be gathered from north, and south, and east, and west, and will be of every name and tongue - but all one in Jesus Christ.

8. This is the only Church WHICH IS TRULY APOSTOLIC. It is built on the foundation laid by the Apostles, and holds the doctrines which they preached. The two grand objects at which its members aim are apostolic faith and apostolic practice; and they consider the man who talks of following the Apostles without possessing these two things to be no better than sounding brass and tinkling cymbal.

9. This is the only Church WHICH IS CERTAIN TO ENDURE UNTO THE END. Nothing can altogether overthrow and destroy it. Its members may be persecuted, oppressed, imprisoned, beaten, beheaded, burned; but the true Chruch is never altogether extinguished; it rises again from its afflictions; it lives on through fire and water. When crushed in one land it springs up in another. The Pharaohs, the Herods, the Neros, the Bloody Marys, have labored in vain to put down this Church; they slay their thousands, and then pass away and go to their own place. The true Church outlives them all, and sees them buried each in his turn. It is an anvil that has broken many a hammer in this world, and will break many a hammer still; it is a bush which is often burning, and yet it's not consumed.

10. This is the only Church OF WHICH NO ONE MEMBER CAN PERISH. Once enrolled in the lists of this Church, sinners are safe for eternity; they are never cast away. The election of God the Father, the continual intercession of God the Son, the daily renewing and sanctifying power of God the Holy Ghost, surround and fence them in like a garden enclosed. Not one bone of Christ's mystical Body shall ever be broken; not one lamb of Christ's flock shall ever be plucked out of His hand.

11. This is the Church WHICH DOES THE WORK OF CHRIST UPON EARTH. Its members are a little flock, and few in numbers, compared with the children of the world; one or two here, and two or three there - a few in this place and few in that. But these are they who shake the universe; these are they who change the fortunes of kingdoms by their prayers; these are they who are the active workers for spreading the knowledge of pure religion and undefiled; these are the life-blood of a country, the shield, the defence, the stay, and the support of any nation to which they belong.

12. This is the Church WHICH SHALL BE TRULY GLORIOUS AT THE END. When all earthly glory is passsed away then shall this Church be presented without spot before God the Father's throne. Thrones, principalities, and powers upon earth shall come to nothing; dignities, and offices, and endowments shall all pass away; but the Church of the first-born shall shine as the stars at the last, and be presented with joy before the Father's throne, in the day of Christ's appearing. When the Lord's jewels are made up, and manifestation of the sons of God takes place, Episcopacy, and Presbyterianism, and Congregationalism will not be mentioned; one Church only will be named, and that is the Church of the elect.

13. Reader, THIS IS THE TRUE CHURCH TO WHICH A MAN MUST BELONG, IF HE WOULD BE SAVED. Till you belong to this, you are nothing better than a lost soul. You may have the form, the husk, the skin, and the shell of religion, but you have not got the substance and the life. Yes, you may have countless outward privileges; you may enjoy great light, and knowledge - but if you do not belong to the Body of Christ, your light and knowledge and privileges will not save your soul. Alas, for the ignorance that prevails on this point! Men fancy if they join this church or that church, and become communicants, and go through certain forms, that all must be right in their souls. It is an utter delusion, it is a gross mistake. All were not Israel who were called Israel, and all are not members of Christ's Body who profess themselves Christian. TAKE NOTICE; you may be a staunch Episcopalian, or Presbyterian, or Independent, or Baptist, or Wesleyan, or Plymouth Brother - and yet not belong to the true Church. And if you do not, it will be better at last if you had never been born.

Let me first apologize in advance if I'm being nit-picky also, but if we are striving for accuracy here, let's dump the word "Revelations" and use either "The Revelation of St. John the Divine" or simply "The Revelation". Our bishop recently jumped us for sloppiness in announcing, "A reading from the Book of Revelations" so now I can't forget it. It's not good to be on the wrong side of the bishop.

At first glance, it sure seems as if the mere existence of any "purgatory" would deem the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ insufficient for salvation.

Not any more than the need of Christians in this world to "pick up [your] cross[es] and follow me." The work is not finished; nor will it be until the second coming. For our own sakes, so we can conform our will to that of Jesus', we are given the blessing of sharing in the work of Christ.

>> What are the non-dogmatic issues of the RC church? Papal infallibility? The perpetual virginity of Mary or the celibacy of Joseph? Our obligation to pray to Mary? Transubstantiation? Purgatory? A celibate priesthood?

No, these are all dogmatic, with the exception of the celibate priesthood (and sort of an exception for praying with Mary). And they are all biblical. In most cases, Protestants simply deny what was stated for various reasons ("He didn't *literally* mean 'My flesh is real food'," "Even though he addressed himself to Peter, he was speaking to everyone else when he said...," "Mary already had kids when Jesus called John, 'The son of you.'"). In some cases, Luther tried removing books from the Bible, but a case can still be made from what he left in it ("The work of the disobedient shall be destroyed, even though he may persist, as one passing through fire.").

Now, I can see Protestants quabbling with Catholics over *how* to interpret scripture, but it's riotously slanderous when they insist that Catholics disregard the bible on these matters.

The Bible is forthright in declaring the Real Presence in the Eucharist (1 Cor 10:16–17, 11:23–29; and especially John 6:32–71).

And to go back to the earlier comment about historical realities, the early Church Fathers interpreted these passages literally. In summarizing the early Fathers’ teachings on Christ’s Real Presence, renowned Protestant historian of the early Church J. N. D. Kelly, writes: "Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood" (Early Christian Doctrines, 440).

Just one of dozens of writings on this subject by early church fathers:
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" -- Ignatius, Letter to the Romans, 7:3 [A.D. 110]

Here we have Ignatius, an immediate disciple of the Apostle John, who learned at the feet of John, reaffirming the Real Presence.

The Real Presence is something that has been held as true from the very beginning of the church. Do you appreciate what that means?

>>What about those that could not"read and write"?

They heard the homilies explain to them the meaning of the scripture. Homilies are not sermons (although in modern America there's far less distinction.). They are intended to teach the meaning of the scripture which has been read.

>> Dave I do not believe the majority of the populous in 1600 could read and write Latin

No, most could not. Far fewer could read or write in the vernacular. Vernacular bibles were published by Protestants to appeal to the merchant class.

>> So only those that spoke Latin could understand the gospel.

Your cascading logic is false. Yor are clinging to your presumption that there was a conspiracy to not speak the gospel in English. If you are explaining the meaning of something to someone, would you not translate it in pieces yourself? Even though the gospels and the homilies are now in the same language, I ferquently hear priests repeat the gospel in the course of his homily. Other than your presumption that they were tryin to hide it from people, what makes you think they did not do this? Have you not read the homilies of any ancient Christians? (of course not, silly question.)

Most assuredly there is unity in the Body of Christ. She knows no denominations or walls. Therefore, there are believers who attend a CMA church, those who attend a Moravian church, those who attend a Catholic church, those who worship underground in homes, etc. On essentials (i.e., that Jesus is Messiah, that His finished work on the cross saves, original sin, etc. ) delivered by The Christ there is agreement. On non-essentials (eschatological positions, new earth/old earth, whether sign gifts are extant today) there is liberty.

Does that mean there are people who are in the Body but still babies in their understanding of His word? Of course - that's the process of sanctification. (A good example would be Norma McCorvey who trusted Christ, but took more time and feeding on the Word of God to understand His authorship of all life.)

This isn't about Catholicism vs Protestantism. (For, after all, both have erred and not always taught the Word of God.) It's about what God sees - as He looks upon the heart, while man goes about looking to the exterior (the membership, the style, the leader, etc.)

Yet another problem with Fundamentalist and Evangelical interpretatrions is their use of modern English idioms to interpret ancient writings.

While the Greek "phagomai" (to eat) can sometimes be taken metaphorically, the Greek "trogo" is NEVER anything but literal in the Greek Bible and all other ancient Greek literature. Do you appreciate what this means?

Still looks the same

I can't remember who was quoted saying, roughly: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Which is to say that if one is satisfied with appearances, then one is satisfied. One might leave the heavy discussions to the rest of us.

Those who would put the Scriptures indiscriminately into the hands of the people are the believers always in private interpretation—a fallacy both absurd in itself and pregnant with disastrous consequences. These counterfeit champions of the inspired book hold the Bible to be the sole source of Divine Revelation and cover with abuse and trite sarcasm the Catholic and Roman Church. Foreword, Index of Prohibited Books, revised and published by order of Pope Pius XI, Vatican Polyglot Press, 1930, x-xi, quoted in Facts of Faith, 10-11.

Your lack of self-awareness is stunning.

It seems that what Christ has in mind for the "true Church" is one which (before the Last Judgement anyway) contains the saved AND those to be damned.

And Matt. 7:21-23. He never knew them so the workers of inequity had to go.

Maybe the "true Church" is in your mirror...

This guy is on a plane; the captian is unconsious. He is on the radio to the FAA. He is certain that he is not able to land the plane.

Ground control tells him: "I can talk you down. You simply need to listen to me."

"OK"

"Now, you are descending too rapidly. You have to pull up... pull up... come on, are you listening to me, I told you to pull up! O NO, for Heaven sake!... Pull up or you'll crash the plane and kill everyone... NO!!! PULL UP!!! NOOOOOOOOO!!"

But the passanger does nothing. The plane crashes into the control tower. Everyone dies. The FAA holds a hearing to find out who is to blame. How stupid would you have to be to say, "it's in the transcripts: Ground control clearly told the guy he only had to listen to him."

Likewise, Jesus saud that we must believe in him. He also said that if we believe in him, we will obey him. He also gave us commandments as to how to live, and plainly told us that we had to follow those commandments or we will not be saved. We cannot say, therefore, that we do not need to follow those instructions because he only said we must believe in him.

And I'm sorry, but I have to believe that if somehow there was someone listening in on all this, who understood us well, but simply had never heard of the any of these debates that he would fall down laughing at what a silly assertion you make. Luther knew he couldn't defend it, given what the bible says. That's why he removed so much of the bible. (Later Protestants restored the 7 New Testament books he removed.) And even he kept doing 99% of what you are saying is unnecessary.

Your cascading logic is false. Yor are clinging to your presumption that there was a conspiracy to not speak the gospel in English. If you are explaining the meaning of something to someone, would you not translate it in pieces yourself?

You need to totally buy into the conspiracy theory. Mom and the rest of the slandering nabobs would have you believe that no priest, brother, sister, monk, friar or anything ever spoke the vernacular, never taught anything about Jesus and God and most definitely never read any passage from Scriptures to anyone. Except in Latin.

Poor peasant #314 would ask the priest, "tell me what I need to do do make God happy?" and he would respond "sempere ubi sub ubi sub rosa ipso facto ad infinitum."

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