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RECONSTRUCTION THEOLOGY AND HOME EDUCATION [Rushdoony, HSLDA, Gary North]
Houston Unschooling Group ^ | 1999 | Mary McCarthy

Posted on 11/17/2003 8:24:55 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine

Quote from Christian Reconstructionist, Gary North:

"The stranger in ancient Israel did not serve as a judge, although he received all the benefits of living in the land. The political question is this: By what biblical standard is the pagan to be granted the right to bring political sanctions against God's people? We recognize that unbelievers are not to vote in Church elections. Why should they be allowed to vote in civil elections in a covenanted Christian nation? Which judicial standards will they impose? By what other standard than the Bible?"
- Gary North of Institute For Christian Economics

BACKGROUND ON CHRISTIAN RECONSTRUCTIONISM

To more clearly understand the increasing divisiveness in homeschooling and the various leaders involvement in a political religion, it is necessary to become familiar with some of the facets of Christian theology and theocracy.

"Theocracy, the direct rule of a nation by God through divinely selected spokesmen, has many exemplars in the modern world. Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Iraq are nations with obvious theocratic tendencies. Israel's political parties exhibit growing theocratic patterns. In the United States, the Christian Reconstruction movement proposes the purest form of theocracy. Reconstructionism…believes that the law given for the political and legal ordering of ancient Israel is intended for all people at all times; therefore American is duty bound to install a political system based entirely on biblical law."

Reconstructionist theologian David Barton offered this definition: "The Christian goal for the world is the universal development of Biblical theocratic republics, in which every area of life is redeemed and placed under the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the rule of God's law."

The term 'dominion theology' comes from Genesis 1:26-28 of the Bible where God's purpose for man is stated: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." So God created man in his own image…And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." (RSV)

Sometimes termed 'dominion' or 'kingdom' theology, "dominionism revolves around the idea that Christians and Christians alone, are Biblically mandated to occupy all secular institutions until Christ returns. An earlier source of dominion theology was an evangelical philosopher named Francis Schaeffer…Schaeffer's 1981 book, A Christian Manifesto…remained one of the Christian Right's most important texts into the 1990's."

"Individuals from a wide variety of backgrounds and ecclesiastical communions are influenced by and committed to these ideals, from conservative Roman Catholics to Episcopalians to Presbyterians to Pentecostals, Arminian and Calvinist, charismatic and non-charismatic, high Church and low Church traditions are all represented in the broader umbrella of Reconstructionism, (often in the form of the 'Christian America' movement)."

Many of the leaders of the so-called hard or Christian Right are followers of the teachings of Rousas John Rushdoony. R.J. Rushdoony is the spiritual leader of Chalcedon Foundation, a California organization dedicated to Christian Reconstruction. According to the Foundation, a Christian Reconstructionist is a Calvinist, holding to the principles that God, not man, is the center of the universe and beyond; a Theonomist, believing that God's law is found in the Bible; a Presuppositionalist, believing that he holds to the Faith because the Bible says so and has no need to prove it; a Postmillennialist believing that Christ will return to earth only after the Holy Spirit has empowered the church to advance Christ's kingdom in time and history and a Dominionist taking seriously the Bible's commandment to the godly to take dominion in the earth. "The Christian Reconstructionist believes the earth and all it's fullness is the Lord's; that every area dominated by sin must be 'reconstructed' in terms of the Bible. This includes, first, the individual; second, the family; third, the church; and fourth, the wider society including the state."

The Dominion theology movement places Judeo-Christian biblical law above any and all constitutional law, including the U.S. Constitution. "Postmillienialists believe that righteous human beings, essentially servants of Christ, must achieve positions of influence in societies in order to prepare the world for the Messiah's return."

In his excellent 1996 book, With God on Our Side, William Martin used a sampling of the views of several noted Reconstructionists to give a sense of how a Reconstructed America would be: "The federal government would play no role in regulating business, public education, or welfare…[S]ome government would be visible at the level of counties…but citizens would be answerable to church authorities on most matters subject to regulation…income taxes would not exceed ten percent - the biblical tithe - and social security would disappear…[P]ublic schools would be abolished in favor of home-schooling arrangements, and families would operate on a strict patriarchal pattern. The only people permitted to vote would be members of 'biblically correct' churches. Most notably, a theonomic order would make homosexuality, adultery, blasphemy, propagation of false doctrine, and incorrigible behavior by disobedient children subject to the death penalty, preferably administered by stoning…a reconstructed America would have little room for Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, or even non-Reconstructionist Christians. 'The Christian', one Reconstructionist author has asserted, 'must realize that pluralism is a myth…R.J. Rushdoony, also regards pluralism as a heresy, since, in the name of toleration, the believer is asked to associate on a common level of total acceptance with the atheist, the pervert, the criminal, and the adherents of other religions."

Other noted Reconstructionists include Greg Bahnson, David Barton of WallBuilders, Inc., David Chilton, Gary DeMar of American Vision and Worldview Magazine; Ted DeMoss of Christian Business Men's Committee; Kenneth Gentry, Jay Grimstead of Coalition on Revival; James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church; Tim LaHaye of American Coalition for Traditional Values; Mrs. Connie Marshner of Free Congress Foundation; Rev. Joseph Morecraft; Gary North of Institute for Christian Economics; Mark Siljander of Global Strategies, Inc.; Randall Terry of Operation Rescue and Rev. Donald Wildmon of American Family Association. Dr. Kennedy, Rev. LaHaye, Mrs. Marshner, Mr. North, R.J. Rushdoony, and Rev. Wildmon are all members of the Council For National Policy.

"Whether it is acknowledged or not, Reconstructionism has profoundly influenced the Christian Right. Perhaps its most important role within the Christian Right can be traced to the formation in 1982 of the Coalition on Revival (COR)…Founded and headed by Dr. Jay Grimstead, COR has sought in this way to create a transdenominational theology…The COR leadership has significantly overlapped with the Christian Right, and has included: John Whitehead, Don Wildmon…Tim LaHaye and D. James Kennedy, Randall Terry…Steven Hotze, Rev. Glen Cole…Michael Farris…Robert Dugan…Bill Dannemeyer…Mark Siljander…R.J. Rushdoony, Gary North, Joseph Moorecraft, David Chilton, Gary DeMar… and Rus Walton."

CHRISTIAN RECONSTRUCTIONISM AND HOMESCHOOLING

It is difficult for secular homeschoolers to understand the apparent double standard when Christian homeschoolers are discriminatory against them at the local support group level, while at the same time, courting their efforts when it comes to state or national political causes. Understanding Reconstructionist Theology and Theocracy is important because it reflects understanding on the division in the homeschooling community between secular and religious members, and the theocratic motivations of politically manipulating the community.

Gary North declared, "All long-term social change comes from the successful efforts of one or another struggling organizations to capture the minds of a hard core of future leaders."

Reconstructionists believe that Christian schools and the homeschooling movement are the key to capturing those minds. Joseph Moorecraft said in 1987, that the Reconstruction movement was made up of a small number but expected a massive acceleration in 25 to 30 years 'when those kids that are now in Christian schools have graduated and taken their places in American society, and moved into places of influence and power.'

It's interesting to note that Reconstructionist Jay Rogers wrote, " A little known fact: R. J Rushdoony, aside from being the founder of Christian Reconstruction, is also the founder of the modern home schooling movement. Most people who deride the Reconstructionist movement for being 'too political' don't realize that." This declaration completely ignores the work of secular writers, such as John Holt, who promoted homeschooling as an alternative in the 1970's and '80's.

When it comes to politics, the principles are simple: "The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant--baptism and Holy Communion--must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel."

"Gary North claims that 'the ideas of the Reconstructionists have penetrated into Protestant circles that for the most part are unaware of the original source of the theological ideas that are beginning to transform them.' North describes the 'three major legs of the Reconstructionist movement' as 'the Presbyterian oriented educators, the Baptist school headmasters and pastors, and the charismatic telecommunications system.' What this means is that hundreds of thousands of Pentecostals and charismatic Christians, as well as many fundamentalist Baptists, have moved out of the apolitical camp. Many have thrown themselves into political work - not merely as voters, but as ideologically driven activists, bringing a reconstructed 'Biblical world view' to bear on their area of activism."

The Home School Legal Defense Association/Foundation has many links to Reconstructionism. In his well-researched 1995 book, Home Schooling: The Right Choice, HSLDA attorney Christopher Klicka frequently quotes Reconstructionst writers, notably Rushdoony and Barton. In addition to including Rushdoony's "The Difference Between Christian Education and Humanistic Education", the book's forward was written by D. James Kennedy and many of the ideals expressed seem Reconstructionist, however, he does not state specifically that he is a Reconstructionist.

The relationship between President Michael Farris of HSLDA and Tim and Beverly LaHaye goes back to the early 1980's when Michael Farris was head of the legal department of Concerned Women for America. Tim LaHaye was attempting to start a television ministry that failed. In 1983 he started the American Coalition for Traditional Values which was similar to the now defunct Moral Majority, its goal being to mobilize Christians to register and vote. Some accounts indicate Michael Farris was deeply involved with ACTV while others do not mention his involvement. ACTV closed down shortly after the 1986 elections. Tim LaHaye withdrew from his television ministry when it was publicized that his church was funding an anti-Catholic group. In 1985 he further withdrew after it became known that CWA had accepted 'generous help' from the Rev. Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church which teaches the divinity of the Rev. Moon in direct conflict with Christian teachings. In 1987 Rev. LaHaye was forced to resign as co-chair from Jack Kemp's presidential campaign because newspapers printed divisive passages from his writings, which were anti-catholic and anti-Semetic.

The New York Times profiled Michael Farris' campaign for Lt. Governor of Virginia as part of a series of articles about Christians in politics. It is noted that Michael Farris' name appeared as a co-author of a policy paper by Jay Grimstead's "Coalition on Revival, which has called for the United States to reclaim itself as a 'Christian nation.' (Farris says that he only worked on an early draft of the document and that the organization included his name without his permission.)"

Farris's name appears among ninety-seven Christian intellectuals who signed the Coalition for Revival's 1986 'manifesto' which declares, "We believe America can be turned around and once again function as a

Christian nation as it did in it's earlier years. The document lists Farris and…Virginia C. Armstrong as co-authors of the section entitled 'The Christian World View of the Law,' which states, 'We affirm that a society must inevitably choose between conflicting legal foundations and views of law and should choose Christian views and a Christian foundation because the Christian system is vastly superior to all alternatives." Farris denies ever signing the document or co-writing the section on a Christian view of the law although Armstrong recalls that she and Farris wrote different parts of the section and "he certainly seemed to be in general agreement" of the finished version.

Michael Farris, in his 1992 book, Where Do I Draw The Line?, addressed Reconstructionism. He quotes Francis Shaeffer's Christian Manifesto to explain our nation's slide into its current cultural condition but he also takes an opportunity to note that, "there are those who advocate the idea that America should enact the Old Testament law right down to the rules for conducting trials. I am not one of those people but I do believe the moral principles of God apply to every age."

However, when discussing classical education in The Future of Home Schooling, he recommends as "one of the best programs I have seen that offers a clearly Christian classical education is David Quine's World Views of the Western World…World Views is a three-year program that is built largely around the works of Francis Schaeffer. Students still read Homer, Socrates and Machiavelli. But these are balanced not only by Schaeffer's works, but also by St. Augustine, Luther and Calvin."

As homeschoolers we should be very careful not to assign guilt by association. It is probable that some of the individuals involved in homeschooling and/or HSLDA are Reconstructionists, while others who associate with them are not. Prominent Reconstructionists are often given a forum to advance their cause at HSLDA conferences but it is unknown whether HSLDA itself is a Reconstructionist organization. HSLDA has ties to the Reconstructionist movement through former employees such as attorney Doug Phillips, the son of prominent Reconstructionist Howard Phillips, founder of the U.S. Taxpayers Party and HSLDA founder James Carden who was instrumental in introducing the concept of home schooling to Bill Gothard of Advanced Training Institute of America, himself a prominent Reconstructionist. Carden was among the 100 families who piloted the ATIA program in 1984/85. Board member Jeff Ethell may have been influenced by Reconstruction ideas while a student at Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia, where noted Reconstructionist Cornelius Van Til taught for nearly 50 years. In his 1959 book, R.J. Rushdoony lavishly praised Van Til's philosophy and the influence it had on him.

Christopher Klicka attended Regent University where 'longtime Dean of the Law School, Herb Titus…used Rushoony's book in his introductory law course… "Christopher Klicka, who has been deeply influenced by R.J. Rushdoony, writes: 'Sending our children to the public school violates nearly every Biblical principle…It is tantamount to sending our children to be trained by the enemy'…Klicka also advocates religious selfsegregation and advises Christians not to affiliate with non-Christian homeschoolers in any way. 'The differences I am talking about…have resulted in wars and martyrdom in the not too distant past.' According to Klicka, who is an attorney with the Home School Legal Defense Association, 'as an organization, and as individuals, we are committed to promote the cause of Christ and his Kingdom."

Former HSLDA employee Inge Cannon was previously employed by Bill Gothard's Institute of Basic Life Principles where she was involved with the development of ATIA's homeschool curriculum. Several of HSLDA's interns come from or plan to attend Oak Brook College of Law and Government Policy which is part of Bill Gothard's ATIA. Also, Tim LaHaye, considered to be a prominent Reconstructionist, is associated with Michael Farris' political action committee, Madison Project Fund Inc., as well as having ties to him through Concerned Women for America. Many of the ideals, particularly exclusivism and selfsegregation as promoted by prominent Christian homeschooling leaders like Christopher Klicka and Gregg Harris, are Reconstructionist in nature. As homeschoolers we must be careful when examining the religious motivations of our fellow homeschoolers not to attach labels which may not be appropriate. However, it would be more honest of HSLDA and others to define their belief status when placing themselves in positions of moral authority over homeschoolers, who are perhaps of other, contrary, beliefs.

NOTES:

1 Gary North, "Westminster's Confession: The Abandonment of Van Til's Legacy", Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1991, p. 227.

2 Derek H. Davis, "Religious Pluralism and the Quest for Unity in American Life", Journal of Church & State, Spring 1994, Vol. 36, Issue 2, page 245.

3 Frederick Clarkson, "Theocratic Dominionism Gains Influence", The Public Eye, March and June 1994.

4 Sara Diamond, Roads to Dominion, Guilford Press, 1995, page 246.

5 J. Ligon Duncan III, Moses' Law for Modern Government: The Intellectual and Sociological Origins of the Christian Reconstructionist Movement, Atlanta Georgia, October 15, 1994.

6 Rev. Andrew Sandlin, "The Creed of Christian Reconstruction", Chalcedon Foundation, (http://www.chalcedon.edu/creed.html.)

7 Alec Foege, The Empire God Built - Inside Pat Robertson's Media Machine, (New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1996), page 176.

8 William Martin, With God On Our Side, (New York: Broadway Books, 1996), page 353-354.

9 PRO-S.O.C.S. (Separation of Church and State), "The Righteous Revolution: Could there be a theocracy in America's future?", 1996.

10 Sara Diamond, "Dominion Theology: The Truth About the Christian Right's Bid for Power".

11 "Council For National Policy Membership List", Institute for First Amendment Studies.

12 Frederick Clarkson, "Theocratic Dominionism Gains Influence", The Public Eye, March and June 1994.

13 Ibid.

14 Jay Rogers, What is Theonomy?, ww.forerunner.com/theofaq.html, no date. Theonomy means "God's law".

15 Gary North, Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1989), p. 87.

16 Frederick Clarkson, "Theocratic Dominionism Gains Influence," The Public Eye, March and June 1994.

17 Stephen Bates, Battleground, New York: Henry Holt, 1993, page 105.

18 William Martin, With God On Our Side, New York: Broadway Books, 1996, page 270.

19 Stephen Bates, op. cit.

20 Leslie Kaufman, "Life Beyond God," New York Times Magazine, October 16, 1994.

21 Michael Farris, Where Do I Draw The Line?, Minnesota: Bethany House, 1992, page 15.

22 Rozell and Wilcox Second Coming The New Christian Right in Virginia Politics, Baltimore MD: Johns Hopkins University Press, 1996, page 100-101.

23 Where do I Draw The Line? Op cit, page 25.

24 Michael Farris, The Future of Home Schooling, Washington D.C.: Regnery Publishing, 1997, page 16.

25 "In Memoriam", Home School Court Report, Vol. 13, No. 3, May/June 97, page 10.

26 Bruce Barron, Heaven On Earth? The Social and Political Agenda of Dominion Theology, Grand Rapids MI: Zondervan, 1992, pages 37, 39.

27 Frederick Clarkson:, Theocratic Dominionism Gains Influence, Part 3: No Longer Without Sheep.

© 1999 Mary H. McCarthy
Home School Legal Research Alliance


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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Here's an easy refutation. Tim LaHaye is emphatically not a "Reconstructionist".

If you don't know this, you don't know anything about what you are pretending to discuss.

You really need to sharpen your tools, mate, if you want to appear to have any credibility at all.

Don't waste our time with your sophomoric scholarship. You make me laugh!

51 posted on 11/17/2003 12:38:04 PM PST by Precisian
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To: ckca
Thus this article and the POS who posted it should be removed. But he's your old buddy, so you'll defend this anti-Christian screed instead of defending your fellow Christian.

If I didn't know either of you, I'd say, from the behavior on this thread, that he's the Christian, and you are not.

52 posted on 11/17/2003 12:39:24 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: ckca; Jim Robinson
You should get off this Forum and do it.

Once again--and read this slowly--you don't own this forum. Jim Robinson does. When you have your own forum, you can tell people to leave. You do not have that power on this forum. You do not have the power to have threads pulled, although you're trying very hard to do so.

Personal attacks on another freeper are forbidden on this forum. To wit: Please: NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts.

53 posted on 11/17/2003 12:41:03 PM PST by Catspaw
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Your conscience wouldn't allow it - it is easy to tolerate political and legal persecution of non-adherents and heretics from the distance of centuries, but you couldn't do it or watch it done in practice.
54 posted on 11/17/2003 12:41:20 PM PST by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Precisian
I believe all So9 means that this straw man "Christian Reconstructionist" is more dangerous than all the AQ sleepers and Democrat socialists plotting evil in America at this moment.
55 posted on 11/17/2003 12:48:46 PM PST by irgbar-man (Don't axe me, go axe a tree!)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
You miss the same point everybody misses with "Reconstructionism". Here is a thought-experiment to clear things up for you.

If a legal election is held under the terms of our Constitution, and the Federal Judiciary sustains the decision of the ballot by a vote of the majority of the Supreme Court....is this "imposing tyranny?"

Nowhere in any "Reconstructionist" literature does anyone advocate anything but complete legal, open-ballot, judicially sustained voting.

Are you saying you will not defend the tenets of the United States Constitution?

56 posted on 11/17/2003 12:51:48 PM PST by Precisian
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To: Precisian
Tim LaHaye is emphatically not a "Reconstructionist".

Then why did he sign the Manifesto that set up the COR? Other signatories include Rushdoony, Gary North, Donald Wildmon, etc.

57 posted on 11/17/2003 12:52:31 PM PST by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Well, I think things are becoming clearer, mate. You flunked high school logic.

Your mind works this way: LaHaye signed the COR Manifesto. Gary North signed the COR Manifesto. North is a "Reconstructionist"; therefore, LaHaye is a "Reconstructionist." You make me laugh!

I am neither a "Reconstructionist", nor a "Theonomist". But I am a defender of the truth. And I don't like sloppy logicians like you.

58 posted on 11/17/2003 1:07:44 PM PST by Precisian
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To: Precisian
Nowhere in any "Reconstructionist" literature does anyone advocate anything but complete legal, open-ballot, judicially sustained voting.

Thats kind of a fave of mine.

59 posted on 11/17/2003 1:07:53 PM PST by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Why not? I've been quite happy to watch the "persecution" of common criminals being caught and slapped about by the citizenry (myself included), or the police.

You are saying I'd have been "troubled" by watching people be exiled to Persia for heresy? Why? It was their choice. If they wanted, they could choose to make a profession of faith.

You should stick to speaking for yourself.
60 posted on 11/17/2003 1:19:22 PM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Again, you need to go back and take elementary logic.

Where in "Political Polytheism" does Gary North say that he opposes legal and sustained majoritarian balloting upheld by the federal judiciary?

You can post a billion things from a billion books and essays, but you will never post anything written by a "Reconstructionist" that goes against the fundamental principles of the United States Constitution. Never!

61 posted on 11/17/2003 1:19:26 PM PST by Precisian
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To: Precisian
I'm sorry, but that piece that I just put up states clearly that the franchise needs to be limited to Christians. That is abhorrent to me, and only those who inhabit a really slimy little theological niche would deem that to comport with the letter and spirit of the Constitution - plus, you'd be wrong.
62 posted on 11/17/2003 1:24:33 PM PST by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
I've been quite happy to watch the "persecution" of common criminals being caught and slapped about by the citizenry (myself included), or the police.

Why am I not suprised that you've been 'quite happy' to see people slapped around by the police?

63 posted on 11/17/2003 1:30:14 PM PST by Pahuanui (When a foolish man hears of the Tao, he laughs out loud)
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To: Pahuanui
Because you realize that I am the type of person who believes muggers and theives and criminals deserve what they get.

Tell me, when the men in my neighborhood ran down a thief last year after he had stolen a bike from a local girl, were we wrong to be happy in the accomplishment, including the bruising tackle the thief suffered at the end of the chase when we dragged him down to the pavement at the curb in the middle of an intersection? Was it wrong for us to be gleeful in watching him rightly suffer at our hands for the wrongs he did our neighborhood?

Was I supposed to be tearful and sorrowful when a boy who mugged me at gunpoint was literally tossed 10 feet into the back of the paddywagon? Why? Did his "human dignity" demand kid glove treatment?
64 posted on 11/17/2003 1:35:41 PM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
You are saying I'd have been "troubled" by watching people be exiled to Persia for heresy?

Would you be troubled by that? Not an accusation. Just an honest question.

65 posted on 11/17/2003 1:36:22 PM PST by Modernman (What Would Jimmy Buffet Do?)
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To: Catspaw
Personal attacks on another freeper are forbidden on this forum

Open your eyes. This thread is a PERSONAL ATTACK on all Christian homeschoolers!

If it is tolerated then the consequences should be tolertated.

Get lost, and quit speaking for Jim Rob, unless "Catspaw" is his alternate screen name.

66 posted on 11/17/2003 1:37:38 PM PST by ckca
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To: Modernman
No.
67 posted on 11/17/2003 1:38:46 PM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Texas_Dawg; Lazamataz
Same goes for Lazamataz.

I realize he kicks your ass every time you argue with him, but please be man enough ping him if you talk about him.

68 posted on 11/17/2003 1:39:28 PM PST by jmc813 (Michael Schiavo is a bigger scumbag than Bill Clinton)
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To: ckca
Open your eyes. This thread is a PERSONAL ATTACK on all Christian homeschoolers!

That's how you may see it. This article seems to raise some interesting points. Nobody here has rebutted anything in the article nor its accusations against Christian Reconstructionism. I'd be curious to hear supporters of CR state what they believe the ideology stands for.

69 posted on 11/17/2003 1:41:10 PM PST by Modernman (What Would Jimmy Buffet Do?)
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To: ckca; Jim Robinson
Get lost, and quit speaking for Jim Rob, unless "Catspaw" is his alternate screen name.

I've pinged Mr. Robinson to this thread. But are you the new owner of the forum? When did you take over? Inquiring minds want to know.

BTW, until you prove ownership of this forum, you have as much right to tell me to "get lost" as Hillary Clinton does.

70 posted on 11/17/2003 1:41:22 PM PST by Catspaw
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
No

Interesting. Keep in mind, though, you might find yourself on the other side of things. What if, a generation from now, this country is predominantly Hindu (stranger things have happened in human history) or majority atheist. Wouldn't you prefer to live in a society where the majority doesn't get to define what the "right" religion is?

71 posted on 11/17/2003 1:44:27 PM PST by Modernman (What Would Jimmy Buffet Do?)
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To: Modernman; Jim Robinson
Christian Reconstructionism is a marginal and irrelevant and passing trend.

This thread is not about Christian Reconstructionism.

Its simply trying to impugn Christian homeschoolers.

And I welcome Jim Rob's explanation of why CP's anti-Christian screeds are tolerated and I remind you that you still do not speak for him.

And my God is still the Holy Trinity, not any Forum moderator. The "last word" on Free Republic is not, in the end, the Last Word.

72 posted on 11/17/2003 1:48:35 PM PST by ckca
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To: Precisian
Nowhere in any "Reconstructionist" literature does anyone advocate anything but complete legal, open-ballot, judicially sustained voting.

They don't advocate violent overthrow of the government, certainly. They do, however, seem to intend to radically change the country if they take over. These changes seem to involve disenfranchising anyone they consider to be "non-believers." It's Wahhabi'ism with a Calvinist flavor.

73 posted on 11/17/2003 1:48:36 PM PST by Modernman (What Would Jimmy Buffet Do?)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Because you realize that I am the type of person who believes muggers and theives and criminals deserve what they get.

No, I understand that you sound like the type of person who prefers to dispense with our legal system, have no problems with police absuing their authority and actually enjoy extra-judicial acts of violence.

Tell me, when the men in my neighborhood ran down a thief last year after he had stolen a bike from a local girl, were we wrong to be happy in the accomplishment,

Of course not. What a silly question.

including the bruising tackle the thief suffered at the end of the chase when we dragged him down to the pavement at the curb in the middle of an intersection?

Taking a suspect into custody is an accomplishment. Taking pleasure in the degree of physicality in doing so is not. It's closer to a pathology.

Was it wrong for us to be gleeful in watching him rightly suffer at our hands for the wrongs he did our neighborhood?

Yep.

Was I supposed to be tearful and sorrowful when a boy who mugged me at gunpoint was literally tossed 10 feet into the back of the paddywagon?

No, of course not.

Why?

See above.

Did his "human dignity" demand kid glove treatment?

Certainly not. Ignorant of the circumstances surrounding your scenario, I have no idea how he should have been treated and why a 10ft. toss was 'necessary'. Once a perp is hooked, there is precious little reason for doing so.

74 posted on 11/17/2003 1:51:31 PM PST by Pahuanui (When a foolish man hears of the Tao, he laughs out loud)
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To: ckca
I remind you that you still do not speak for him

I've never claimed anything to that effect. You must have me confused with someone else.

All I've asked for is an explanation as to what CR is and how it relates to the religious homeschooling phenomenon. Is there a connection and, if so, should we be worried about the connection?

The discussion is certainly not out of bounds. Or am I missing something?

75 posted on 11/17/2003 1:51:45 PM PST by Modernman (What Would Jimmy Buffet Do?)
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To: Modernman
All I've asked for is an explanation as to what CR is and how it relates to the religious homeschooling phenomenon. Is there a connection and, if so, should we be worried about the connection?

Even if they are filling their kids head with this, I would still fight to the death for their right to do so. I don't see what people would want to do, take away their right to homeschool? What's the issue here?

76 posted on 11/17/2003 2:02:52 PM PST by jmc813 (Michael Schiavo is a bigger scumbag than Bill Clinton)
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To: Precisian; Chancellor Palpatine
"Here's an easy refutation. Tim LaHaye is emphatically not a "Reconstructionist"."

I picked up on this, too. I'm not really up on all the Protestant pre-mill, amill, post-mill stuff, but it seems to me LaHaye perforce cannot be a Reconstructionist given his "Left Behind" series. To wit, if one thinks the world is going to hell in a handbasket and one expects to be 'raptured out' at any moment; one naturally must preclude the possibility of building some Kingdom of Christ through a political system hear on earth. This kind of mistake leads me -a rather non-interested observer to this train-wreck of a thread- to the conclusion the author is either a) incompetent or b) malicious.(sp?) Either way, I'm not going to lay awake at night worrying about the Fundies under my bed. Heck, I'm Catholic, everybody hates us. -)

Certainly, though, if LaHaye is a Reconstructionist, he'd do well to keep it under his hat. Wouldn't do much for the book sales, what?

77 posted on 11/17/2003 2:06:05 PM PST by AlguyA
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To: jmc813
I don't see what people would want to do, take away their right to homeschool? What's the issue here?

I guess I'm bothered by the fact that posters on this thread who appear to be pro-CR refuse to give a straight answer as to the whole phenomenon. Instead, they've resorted to personal attacks and demanding that this thread be pulled. That's my issue.

78 posted on 11/17/2003 2:06:53 PM PST by Modernman (What Would Jimmy Buffet Do?)
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To: Boxsford; Chancellor Palpatine
I've had my say.

You didn't say anything. You just made wild unsubstantitiated claims. Chancellor Palpatine has backed up his claims with facts. Why can't you?

79 posted on 11/17/2003 2:07:28 PM PST by LPM1888 (What are the facts? Again and again and again -- what are the facts? - Lazarus Long)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Gary North is a religious kook.
80 posted on 11/17/2003 2:11:37 PM PST by Matchett-PI (Why do America's enemies desperately want DemocRATS back in power?)
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To: Modernman
I see your point. I just don't see why this is as big of a deal as some FReepers make it out to be. I mean, there are racist parents who fill their kids mind with all kinds of garbage. However, it is their right to do so, and I tend not to really give a $hit about them.
81 posted on 11/17/2003 2:12:25 PM PST by jmc813 (Michael Schiavo is a bigger scumbag than Bill Clinton)
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To: Texas_Dawg
Same goes for Lazamataz.

I'll bet ya you get banned long before I ever do.

Say, speak kindly of any torturing governments today?

82 posted on 11/17/2003 2:16:25 PM PST by Lazamataz (PROUDLY SCARING FELLOW FREEPERS SINCE 1999 !!!!)
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To: Modernman; Jim Robinson
how it relates to the religious homeschooling phenomenon.

There is no relationship whatsoever. This is a hit piece, pure and simple.

Is there a connection

NO!

and, if so, should we be worried about the connection?

No, we should be far more concerned about the agenda of the POS who wrote this and the connection to that liberal, anti-Christian agenda of the POS who posted this.

I'm a Christian homeschooler active at the local and state level. NONE of the crap in this POS article has ever been discussed or even mentioned.

Its no different than the CBS hit piece on homeschoolers.

In fact its worse, because at least FReepers all know the CBS drivel was drivel

The fact that this is posted as something even worthy of discussion, and not seen for the anti-Christian DU troll garbage that it is, should cause you the most concern.

83 posted on 11/17/2003 2:16:53 PM PST by ckca
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To: ckca; Catspaw
Would you guys please quit bothering Jim. I'm pretty confident that he has more important things to worry about.
84 posted on 11/17/2003 2:17:54 PM PST by jmc813 (Michael Schiavo is a bigger scumbag than Bill Clinton)
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To: Matchett-PI
Gary North is a religious kook.

Yeah, but I respect his allegience to Ronald Reagan. Besides, any LTC in the Marines is alright by me.

Oh, GARY North.

Never mind.

85 posted on 11/17/2003 2:18:02 PM PST by Lazamataz (PROUDLY SCARING FELLOW FREEPERS SINCE 1999 !!!!)
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To: jmc813
Would you guys please quit bothering Jim. I'm pretty confident that he has more important things to worry about.

Well, one good KNOCK IT OFF generally cures most ills. :o)

86 posted on 11/17/2003 2:18:58 PM PST by Lazamataz (PROUDLY SCARING FELLOW FREEPERS SINCE 1999 !!!!)
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To: AlguyA
"LaHaye .."

LaHaye is a sheep-shearing grifter-kook

87 posted on 11/17/2003 2:19:14 PM PST by Matchett-PI (Why do America's enemies desperately want DemocRATS back in power?)
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To: jmc813
? Now ya done it. Ya sucked me into a thread about denominational infighting. Everyone's gonna look at me, go "There's a JOOOOOO...." and rush me. :o)
88 posted on 11/17/2003 2:20:30 PM PST by Lazamataz (PROUDLY SCARING FELLOW FREEPERS SINCE 1999 !!!!)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Man, I can feel the love...
89 posted on 11/17/2003 2:29:31 PM PST by malakhi (Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.)
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To: Precisian
This is an amazingly destructive slander, typical of the fever-pitched idiocy of those who don't know what they are talking about. Free Republic should not tolerate such insane postings.

Oh, the irony.

90 posted on 11/17/2003 2:30:52 PM PST by malakhi (Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.)
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To: Lazamataz
Everyone's gonna look at me, go "There's a JOOOOOO...." and rush me. :o)

Laz, you can't even join the club (well, unless you convert).

From the 2nd link in post #50:

All converted Jews and Gentiles stand on the same plane of blessing in God's sight, just as all unconverted Jews and Gentiles stand on the same plane of judgment in God's sight.

91 posted on 11/17/2003 2:34:31 PM PST by Catspaw
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Thanks for the ping.
92 posted on 11/17/2003 2:35:42 PM PST by Law
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To: Catspaw; ckca
I thought this thread was a discussion of Christian Reconstructionism.

You're mistaken. This thread was designed to be a hit piece on conservative Christians. That's why from the very beginning the main posters don't discuss the article's contents but rather attack Christians. Here's a typical early post that illustrates the case:

These loons are more dangerous than al Quaida because they are hiding in our own institutions.

We need to work on getting them to drink their own Kool-Aid, and soon.

It's only after attacks like this that Christians such as ckca return fire.

93 posted on 11/17/2003 2:44:35 PM PST by Law
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To: Catspaw; ckca
How nice. Christian "Wahhabi's".

Here's another example of the alleged "discussion" of Reconstructionism. See how it's just another attack on Christians?

94 posted on 11/17/2003 2:47:21 PM PST by Law
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To: Law; ckca
It's only after attacks like this that Christians such as ckca return fire.

By being rude, dragging arguments from other threads, personally attacking another freeper and telling me to get lost, and telling me that more than once? ckca's words went way beyond inappropriate into abusive.

95 posted on 11/17/2003 2:48:46 PM PST by Catspaw
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To: Law
Do you agree with this statement? It's from a link in post #50:

All converted Jews and Gentiles stand on the same plane of blessing in God's sight, just as all unconverted Jews and Gentiles stand on the same plane of judgment in God's sight.

96 posted on 11/17/2003 2:49:48 PM PST by Catspaw
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To: Catspaw; ckca
More of the old familiar names.

Add in Roy Moore, or at least his lawyers:

This, also, isn't "discussion" but, rather, an effort to spread guilt by association.

97 posted on 11/17/2003 2:50:53 PM PST by Law
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To: jmc813
OK, fine by me. I've accomplished my goals on this thread.
98 posted on 11/17/2003 2:53:03 PM PST by ckca
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To: Catspaw; ckca
Every religion has its mental marginals that wind up using it as a tool of destruction. This group are those kind of people. They don't worship their God, they worship their own psychosis.

More of the same fake discussion. All it is name-calling.

99 posted on 11/17/2003 2:53:03 PM PST by Law
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To: Servant of the 9; OrthodoxPresbyterian
There was a time when a freeper called Born again Christians "Tailborn again "

Rather interesting seeing it was Calvinists that believe in the sovereignty of God that formed the country you live in


From an old FR Post

I feel that I ought to point out that the majority of our nation's Christian founders/framers between 1775 and 1788 were Calvinists, not Arminians. ~~ Oh, absolutely not. The majority were Deists. There is a very great difference between a Deist and a Calvinist, but you can't possible know it with a working knowldge of history.


That's ridiculous.

Denominational Affiliations of the Framers of the Constitution
Dr. Miles Bradford of the University of Dallas did a study on the denominational classifications that the delegates to the Constitutional Convention accepted for themselves. Contrary to myth, the following list, published by Bradford, indicates that only 3 out of 55 of the framers classified themselves as Deists.

Note: only those Denominations whose Confessions of Faith were expressly Calvinistic at this time have been identified as "Calvinist" denominations. While many "Old-School" Lutherans and "Whitfield" Methodists at this time would have identified themselves with a Calvinistic view of Predestination, their affiliation has for the sake of charity been assumed to be non-Calvinist.

New Hampshire

* John Langdon, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
* Nicholas Gilman, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
Massachusetts

* Elbridge Gerry, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Rufus King, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Caleb Strong, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
* Nathaniel Gorham, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
Connecticut

* Roger Sherman, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
* William Johnson, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Oliver Ellsworth, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
New York

* Alexander Hamilton, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* John Lansing, DUTCH REFORMED -- Calvinist
* Robert Yates, DUTCH REFORMED -- Calvinist
New Jersey

* William Patterson, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* William Livingston, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Jonathan Dayton, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* David Brearly, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* William Churchill Houston, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist

Pennsylvania

* Benjamin Franklin, DEIST
* Robert Morris, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* James Wilson, DEIST
* Gouverneur Morris, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Thomas Mifflin, QUAKER
* George Clymer, QUAKER
* Thomas FitzSimmons, ROMAN CATHOLIC
* Jared Ingersoll, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist

Delaware

* John Dickinson, QUAKER
* George Read, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Richard Bassett, METHODIST
* Gunning Beford, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Jacod Broom, LUTHERAN

Maryland

* Luther Martin, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Daniel Carroll, ROMAN CATHOLIC
* John Mercer, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* James McHenry, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Daniel Jennifer, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
Virginia

* George Washington, EPISCOPALIAN (Non-Communicant)
* James Madison, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* George Mason, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Edmund Randolph, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* James Blair, Jr., EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* James McClung, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* George Wythe, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
North Carolina

* William Davie, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Hugh Williamson, DEIST
* William Blount, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Alexander Martin, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Richard Spaight, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
South Carolina

* John Rutledge, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Charles Pinckney, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Pierce Butler, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Charles Pinckney, III, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
Georgia

* Abraham Baldwin, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
* William Leigh Pierce, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* William Houstoun, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* William Few, METHODIST

Some may say, "well, this list only shows what churches these men were members of, it doesn't show what they believed." Which is a veiled way of suggesting that these men were liars when they swore to God to adopt the confessions of their churches when they became members of these churches (most churches back then required an "examination" of members when they were received into full membership).
100 posted on 11/17/2003 2:54:17 PM PST by RnMomof7
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