Posted on 11/30/2003 5:21:17 PM PST by drstevej
Yes, it isn't difficult to see. That is why the Apostles had no trouble understanding that Jesus was speaking "firgurative truth" when he said, "this is my body" and "this is my blood". After all, they had already heard his explanation in John 6.
Jean
The same place we find the word "Trinity".
Jean
I've got no problem with Christ being "the door" literally, as long as it is understood a door can be more than just a metal frame enclosing a piece of glass, or several pieces of carved wood glued together. A door is "an entrance or access" according to my Oxford English Dictionary. Christ is the only entrance to heaven, therefore He is the door to the one sheepfold, the Church.
But FL and I would say our understanding with the Church of Scripture is infallible. Its impossible the Church should err in this. If we join ourselves to the mind of the Church always, we can't go wrong. Error starts when we start thinking we know better than the Church.
Trinity is not self-contradictory as is the case with a list of things each of which is necessary "alone."
So is there a lot of unity between the Homoloving PCA and the Orthodox Presbyterians? Aren't you both reformed? ;-)
That unity in the sects tends to be the case when everyone feels free to leave and start their own Church over the slightest difference in opinion. We are talking about the difference between a few million Calvinists, and 1.1 billion Catholics plus 300 million Orthodox. If you reduced us to the very knowledgeable core of perhaps 10%, you'd see the same unity on everything you are so impressed with in Calvinism.
Personally, I am much more impressed with the dedication of the ignorant laity to be faithful Catholics. I am more impressed by the dedication of homeless bums to come and worship their Lord at Mass (some daily!) than the intellectual exercise of Calvinism among the braintrust.
I find total ignorance (and I mean total) to be the status quo among most every single "Catholic" I know. The knowledgable Catholics that one finds here on FR are in the vast minority.
Yes, but they all know what they should do - worship Him as God, stay Catholic, love the brotherhood, confess their sins, and go to Mass. Christ didn't call everyone to be a learned scholar. He did call us to love each other and our neighbors, to confes our sins, and to worship Him in the Eucharist. Every Catholic knows to do these basic things to get to heaven. Their ignorance of the fine points of grace vs. free will, or the Trinitarian Perichoresis, or the powers and duties of the ecclesiastical heirarchy is not relevant. Its important that the Church teaches those things correctly, but it is not important that the laity know it all by heart and rote.
Please keep in mind that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox are "the whole people". Everyone from the PhD's like a friend of mine on Wall St. on down to the homeless drug using high-school drop out ex-con bum with AIDS I met last year who was just trying to get money to get home to his mom after getting off the bus from the State prison. You can't expect everyone to be learned in everything, and I'm sure the bum didn't know all the PhD knows. You can expect them to participate in the life of the Church and to love, and that the bum did. When the whole of a country is in the Church, as with Greece or Italy or Spain or Ireland, etc. you are bound to find an abundance of ignorance. Please keep in mind, by definition, half the people are of below average intelligence and knowledge, and many are illiterate. Christ died for them too, and he never threatened "unless a man read the Bible, he cannot see the Kingdom of God".
Because when I am in a discussion with other Christians, I assure that they know their Scripture. Assuming otherwise is simply the height of arrogance and displays an attitude which does not fit the Christian faith.
...you just rehashed what a bunch of people told you to believe.
Sorry that our interpretation of Scripture remains constant, is not moved by the fickle winds of the modern day, or is subject to myriad reinterpretations on a nearly daily basis.
After all, we are the Church that compiled the New Testament. And now you come along and suggest that we know nothing about it.
Arrogance, pure and simple.
Of course not, but when they start spitting out their rehearsed "Is he a door?" nonsense, you know they are referring to a piece of wood in a flawed attempt to argue by reducing to the absurd. The only absurdities are the rehearsed argument or the claim that it is not rehearsed yet they all quote the same bits spun the same way.
Colossians 2.15. And by sending out His apostles from His body, they spread [His commandments] to all the thrones and authorities, and He put them all to shame by the manifestation of His Trinity.
Hebrews 1.3. "So as they may be the yeast of His [Son's] glory and in the image of His existence, And that he may muster all of them by the power of His Manifestation, And it was with that Essence of His Trinity that He cleansed our sins, He Who sits from the right of the Supreme throne in the Highest."
Gosh the term is right there in the English translation of the Aramaic Bible used by the Catholic Church among the Aramaic speaking Maronites, Syrians, and Assyrians. A note on 2 Corinthians 12.15 in that Bible explains:
12:15.2 Lit. Ar. idiomatic construction: "And also q'numee I give over the faces of your souls." The word "q'nu-mah," theologically, exists only in ancient Aramaic. There are three q'nu-meh" with reference to God, the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit, each q'nu-mah is one of the three Essences of the Trinity. "Essences" itself is not a proper translation, only a rough approximation. The triune "Q'nu-meh" of the one Father-Son-Holy Spirit, is the Trinity.
Its all of the Bible they really know - "sword drills" and all that. They don't have the blessing we have of covering the whole Bible at Mass and the Office on a regular basis. Without covering the whoel Bible, they know the bit parts by rote, but miss what the Bible was intended to convey.
The Three Hermits
Leo Tolstoy
And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask Him. – Matt. VI. 7, 8
A Bishop was sailing from Archangel to the Solovetsk Monastery; and on the same vessel were a number of pilgrims on their way to visit the shrines at that place. The voyage was a smooth one – the wind favorable, and the weather fair. The pilgrims lay on deck, eating, or sat in groups talking to one another. The Bishop, too, came on deck, and as he was pacing up and down, he noticed a group of men standing near the prow and listening to a fisherman who was pointing to the sea and telling them something. The Bishop stopped, and looked in the direction in which the man was pointing. He could see nothing however, but the sea glistening in the sunshine. He drew nearer to listen, but when the man saw him, he took off his cap and was silent. The rest of the people also took off their caps, and bowed.
“Do not let me disturb you, friends,” said the Bishop. “I came to hear what this good man was saying.”
“The fisherman was telling us about the hermits,” replied one, a tradesman, rather bolder than the rest.
“What hermits?” asked the Bishop, going to the side of the vessel and seating himself on a box. “Tell me about them. I should like to hear. What were you pointing at?”
“Why, that little island you can just see over there,” answered the man, pointing to a spot ahead and a little to the right. “That is the island where the hermits live for the salvation of their souls.”
“Where is the island?” asked the Bishop. “I see nothing.”
“There, in the distance, if you will please look along my hand. Do you see that little cloud? Below it and a bit to the left, there is just a faint streak. That is the island.”
The Bishop looked carefully, but his unaccustomed eyes could make out nothing but the water shimmering in the sun.
“I cannot see it,” he said. “But who are the hermits that live there?”
“They are holy men,” answered the fisherman. “I had long heard tell of them, but never chanced to see them myself till the year before last.”
And the fisherman related how once, when he was out fishing, he had been stranded at night upon that island, not knowing where he was. In the morning, as he wandered about the island, he came across an earth hut, and met an old man standing near it. Presently two others came out, and after having fed him, and dried his things, they helped him mend his boat.
“And what are they like?” asked the Bishop.
“One is a small man and his back is bent. He wears a priest’s cassock and is very old; he must be more than a hundred, I should say. He is so old that the white of his beard is taking a greenish tinge, but he is always smiling, and his face is as bright as an angel’s from heaven. The second is taller, but he also is very old. He wears a tattered peasant coat. His beard is broad, and of a yellowish gray color. He is a strong man. Before I had time to help him, he turned my boat over as if it were only a pail. He too, is kindly and cheerful. The third is tall, and has a beard as white as snow and reaching to his knees. He is stern, with overhanging eyebrows; and he wears nothing but a mat tied round his waist.”
“And did they speak to you?” asked the Bishop.
“For the most part they did everything in silence and spoke but little even to one another. One of them would just give a glance, and the others would understand him. I asked the tallest whether they had lived there long. He frowned, and muttered something as if he were angry; but the oldest one took his hand and smiled, and then the tall one was quiet. The oldest one only said: ‘Have mercy upon us,’ and smiled.”
While the fisherman was talking, the ship had drawn nearer to the island.
“There, now you can see it plainly, if your Grace will please to look,” said the tradesman, pointing with his hand.
The Bishop looked, and now he really saw a dark streak –which was the island. Having looked at it a while, he left the prow of the vessel, and going to the stern, asked the helmsman:
“What island is that?”
“That one,” replied the man, “has no name. There are many such in this sea.”
“Is it true that there are hermits who live there for the salvation of their souls?”
“So it is said, your Grace, but I don’t know if it’s true. Fishermen say they have seen them; but of course they may only be spinning yarns.”
“I should like to land on the island and see these men,” said the Bishop. “How could I manage it?”
“The ship cannot get close to the island,” replied the helmsman, “but you might be rowed there in a boat. You had better speak to the captain.”
The captain was sent for and came.
“I should like to see these hermits,” said the Bishop. “Could I not be rowed ashore?”
The captain tried to dissuade him.
“Of course it could be done,” said he, “but we should lose much time. And if I might venture to say so to your Grace, the old men are not worth your pains. I have heard say that they are foolish old fellows, who understand nothing, and never speak a word, any more than the fish in the sea.”
“I wish to see them,” said the Bishop, “and I will pay you for your trouble and loss of time. Please let me have a boat.”
There was no help for it; so the order was given. The sailors trimmed the sails, the steersman put up the helm, and the ship’s course was set for the island. A chair was placed at the prow for the Bishop, and he sat there, looking ahead. The passengers all collected at the prow, and gazed at the island. Those who had the sharpest eyes could presently make out the rocks on it, and then a mud hut was seen. At last one man saw the hermits themselves. The captain brought a telescope and, after looking through it, handed it to the Bishop.
“It’s right enough. There are three men standing on the shore. There, a little to the right of that big rock.”
The Bishop took the telescope, got it into position, and he saw the three men: a tall one, a shorter one, and one very small and bent, standing on the shore and holding each other by the hand.
The captain turned to the Bishop.
“The vessel can get no nearer in than this, your Grace. If you wish to go ashore, we must ask you to go in the boat, while we anchor here.”
The cable was quickly let out, the anchor cast, and the sails furled. There was a jerk, and the vessel shook. Then a boat having been lowered, the oarsmen jumped in, and the Bishop descended the ladder and took his seat. The men pulled at their oars, and the boat moved rapidly towards the island. When they came within a stone’s throw they saw three old men: a tall one with only a mat tied round his waist: a shorter one in a tattered peasant coat, and a very old one bent with age and wearing an old cassock – all three standing hand in hand.
The oarsmen pulled in to the shore, and held on with the boathook while the Bishop got out.
The old men bowed to him, and he gave them his benediction, at which they bowed still lower. Then the Bishop began to speak to them.
“I have heard,” he said, “that you, godly men, live here saving your own souls, and praying to our Lord Christ for your fellow men. I, an unworthy servant of Christ, am called, by God’s mercy, to keep and teach His flock. I wished to see you, servants of God, and to do what I can to teach you, also.”
The old men looked at each other smiling, but remained silent.
“Tell me,” said the Bishop, “what you are doing to save your souls, and how you serve God on this island.”
The second hermit sighed, and looked at the oldest, the very ancient one. The latter smiled, and said:
“We do not know how to serve God. We only serve and support ourselves, servant of God.”
“But how do you pray to God?” asked the Bishop.
“We pray in this way,” replied the hermit. “Three are ye, three are we, have mercy upon us.”
And when the old man said this, all three raised their eyes to heaven, and repeated:
“Three are ye, three are we, have mercy upon us!”
The Bishop smiled.
“You have evidently heard something about the Holy Trinity,” said he. “But you do not pray aright. You have won my affection, godly men. I see you wish to please the Lord, but you do not know how to serve Him. That is not the way to pray; but listen to me, and I will teach you. I will teach you, not a way of my own, but the way in which God in the Holy Scriptures has commanded all men to pray to Him.”
And the Bishop began explaining to the hermits how God had revealed Himself to men; telling them of God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.
“God the Son came down on earth,” said he, “to save men, and this is how He taught us all to pray. Listen and repeat after me: ‘Our Father.’”
And the first old man repeated after him, “Our Father,” and the second said, “Our Father,” and the third said, “Our Father.”
“Which art in heaven,” continued the Bishop.
The first hermit repeated, “Which art in heaven,” but the second blundered over the words, and the tall hermit could not say them properly. His hair had grown over his mouth so that he could not speak plainly. The very old hermit, having no teeth, also mumbled indistinctly.
The Bishop repeated the words again, and the old men repeated them after him. The Bishop sat down on a stone, and the old men stood before him, watching his mouth, and repeating the words as he uttered them. And all day long the Bishop labored, saying a word twenty, thirty, a hundred times over, and the old men repeated it after him. They blundered, and he corrected them, and made them begin again.
The Bishop did not leave off till he had taught them the whole of the Lord’s prayer so that they could not only repeat it after him, but could say it by themselves. The middle one was the first to know it, and to repeat the whole of it alone. The Bishop made him say it again and again, and at last the others could say it too.
It was getting dark, and the moon was appearing over the water, before the Bishop rose to return to the vessel. When he took leave of the old men, they all bowed down to the ground before him. He raised them, and kissed each of them, telling them to pray as he had taught them. Then he got into the boat and returned to the ship.
And as he sat in the boat and was rowed to the ship he could hear the three voices of the hermits loudly repeating the Lord’s prayer. As the boat drew near the vessel their voices could no longer be heard, but they could still be seen in the moonlight, standing as he had left them on the shore, the shortest in the middle, the tallest on the right, the middle one on the left. As soon as the Bishop had reached the vessel and got on board, the anchor was weighed and the sails unfurled. The wind filled them, and the ship sailed away, and the Bishop took a seat in the stern and watched the island they had left. For a time he could still see the hermits, but presently they disappeared from sight, though the island was still visible. At last it too vanished, and only the sea was to be seen, rippling in the moonlight.
The pilgrims lay down to sleep, and all was quiet on deck. The Bishop did not wish to sleep, but sat alone at the stern, gazing at the sea where the island was no longer visible, and thinking of the good old men. He thought how pleased they had been to learn the Lord’s prayer; and he thanked God for having sent him to teach and help such godly men.
So the Bishop sat, thinking, and gazing at the sea where the island had disappeared. And the moonlight flickered before his eyes, sparkling, now here, now there, upon the waves. Suddenly he saw something white and shining, on the bright path which the moon cast across the sea. Was it a seagull, or the little gleaming sail of some small boat? The Bishop fixed his eyes on it, wondering.
“It must be a boat sailing after us,” thought he, “but it is overtaking us very rapidly. It was far, far away a minute ago, but now it is much nearer. It cannot be a boat, for I can see no sail; but whatever it may be, it is following us, and catching us up.”
And he could not make out what it was. Not a boat, nor a bird, nor a fish! It was too large for a man, and besides a man could not be out there in the midst of the sea. The Bishop rose, and said to the helmsman:
“Look there, what is that, my friend? What is it?” the Bishop repeated, though he could now see plainly what it was – the three hermits running upon the water, all gleaming white, their gray beards shining, and approaching the ship as quickly as though it were not moving.
The steersman looked and let go the helm in terror.
“Oh Lord! The hermits are running after us on the water as though it were dry land!”
The passengers hearing him, jumped up, and crowded to the stern. They saw the hermits coming along hand in hand, and the two outer ones beckoning the ship to stop. All three were gliding along upon the water without moving their feet. Before the ship could be stopped, the hermits had reached it, and raising their heads, all three as with one voice, began to say:
“We have forgotten your teaching, servant of God. As long as we kept repeating it we remembered, but when we stopped saying it for a time, a word dropped out, and now it has all gone to pieces. We can remember nothing of it. Teach us again.”
The Bishop crossed himself, and leaning over the ship’s side, said:
“Your own prayer will reach the Lord, men of God. It is not for me to teach you. Pray for us sinners.
And the Bishop bowed low before the old men; and they turned and went back across the sea. And a light shone until daybreak on the spot where they were lost to sight.
You're developing a penchant for understatement.
LOL! That's Hermann for you.
Indeed, I did. Illiterate - if you look at the thread AB & I were interacting on - in the limited definition I used on that thread. I suggest you peruse that discussion first. I used that term in the context that you might know the story, but don't know how it applies to other discussions. And it looks like I was right. Yes, you understand one of the primary meanings of this verse - but you failed to catch the secondary implications re the Mosaic Dietary Laws.
"and in a trance I saw a vision, a certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me: upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And I heard a voice saying unto the, Arise, Peter; slay and eat....What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven." "
Now, why was there a human body included among the beasts on the sheet, once declared unclean to eat, and now is declared cleansed?
No, I am just unable to follow all the perverse logic that some apply to Scripture and prefer to stand with our traditional understanding of the verses. It has served us well for almost 2000 years, after all.
I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Now, why was there a human body included among the beasts on the sheet...
I'm sorry, but the convolutions and deceit being used here are thankfully beyond me.
Why don't we take this by the numbers, one at a time, since you admit interpreting scripture is "beyond you"
1) Was there a human body on the sheet in Acts 11?
Sure - who would you like to call?
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