Posted on 02/07/2004 12:26:51 PM PST by Gamecock
If John the Baptist were born again then he would have had to, by definition, have been on his way to Hell.
But you said we were ALL BORN to fry in hell. But John the Baptist was supposedly BORN... Born again. Which would mean that he was born to be saved and hell was NEVER a possibility for him.
Indeed, if we accept election as the Calvinist defines it, ALL the elect are literally born to be saved and they are born literally destined to heaven and only the reprobates are born to be fried in hell.
So you are misleading xJones by saying that we are ALL born to fry in hell. You weren't born to be fried in hell, were you? In your doctrine nothing you have done, or could have done or could not have done would have changed that fact. Your destiny was sealed before the foundation of the earth. Your destiny of heaven was sealed before you were even conceived. So you were NOT born to fry in Hell, you were born to be forever with Christ in Heaven. It was your eternal destiny even before the foundation of the earth. Am I correct?
In your doctrine every elect was chosen and elected before they were born, so the elect have no possible destination other than heaven and everyone else has no possible destination other then hell.
So how can you say that we are ALL born to fry in hell?
Yeah, but I used it with one hand tied behind my back.
From before the foundation of the world God chose among His creation the names of those who would sit with Him in heaven. The future is not a secret from God. He creates the future, as He wills. If your name has been written in the Book of Life, God put it there, not you.
There are only two kinds of people on this planet, Marlowe. The elect and the damned. Do you disagree with that?
The elect are not born free of sin; all men are born fallen and dead to God. The elect, however, chosen by God from all races from all parts of the earth before the foundation of the world, are known to God. And for His elect, He sent His only son, Jesus Christ, to suffer and die as an atonement for our sins.
All this is God's plan. All this has been known and ordained by God from before the foundation of the world.
To assume anything less is to make God less than God and man more than man.
You, on the other hand, think some men are more holy than others, more devout, more intelligent, more worthy of being saved by virtue of their virtue.
Calvinists believe we are all the same. And our choices are all the same -- we all choose to sin and flee from the face of God.
But by the singular grace of God, and only by the grace of God, some are saved. Not through any good behavior or skin color or bank account or family pedigree or sacrament or smart decision. Only through the grace of God.
Salvation is of the Lord. All else is heresy.
IMO intelligence can be a handicap in understanding spiritual things.
Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Now show me a little child who can accept the implications of Calvinism. Most little children would naturally recoil at the doctrines of Calvinism. "Daddy, Why would God create people for the sole purpose of burning them forever in hell? Is God that mean? Is God that unfair?
To which the intelligent Calvinist would respond, "Yes Virginia, God is unfair."
Be that as it may, the answer is that some "bright people on this forum" have been graced by God to understand that He's God and we're not, leaving others to struggle in the ages-old Pelagian heresy.
Same as it ever was.
If John the Baptist were born saved, than he would have been born saved, not born to be saved. If he were saved, what was he saved from?
If he were saved from going to hell then that means at some point he was on his way to hell. Otherwise he would not have needed saving.
Indeed, if we accept election as the Calvinist defines it, ALL the elect are literally born to be saved and they are born literally destined to heaven and only the reprobates are born to be fried in hell.
But that doesn't negate the fact that the same argument for John the Baptist applies here as well.
We are saved, saved from what? Saved from going to hell. If we were saved from going to hell that means at some point we were going there.
So you are misleading xJones by saying that we are ALL born to fry in hell.
I probably could have worded it better and said we were all born on our way to hell. But I was using the words xJones posted.
You weren't born to be fried in hell, were you? In your doctrine nothing you have done, or could have done or could not have done would have changed that fact. Your destiny was sealed before the foundation of the earth.
Indeed, that is after all what the Scriptures teach:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Your destiny of heaven was sealed before you were even conceived. So you were NOT born to fry in Hell, you were born to be forever with Christ in Heaven. It was your eternal destiny even before the foundation of the earth. Am I correct?
Yes.
The Elect may not have been "born to fry in hell," but they were born on their way there.
In your doctrine every elect was chosen and elected before they were born, so the elect have no possible destination other than heaven and everyone else has no possible destination other then hell.
Yes.
In your doctrine, when was your destiny sealed.....or is it yet?
So how can you say that we are ALL born to fry in hell?
Those were xJones' words. I used them in framing my post to him. I restated my position above which is that everyone is born on their way to hell, whether they end up there or not.
It's late so I'll say good night now Marlowe. I have a job interview tomorrow so I's needs my beauty sleep.
I'll check in tomorrow sometime to see what you have to say.
Yes or no, and be honest.
Wonderful post Dr. E.
At what point in an elect person's life is there the remotest chance that they will go to hell?
There isn't, is there? They are not being saved from anything. They were never destined for hell, they were always destined for heaven before they ever entered into the world.
You see the problem, don't you ksen. If a person is to be saved from hell, he actually has to be on the road. The elect are never on that road. So the elect are never saved. They are merely destined for heaven.
Maybe you guys should stop using the term "saved." Then maybe we'd all understand what you are trying to say.
If that's the case Mack than you should be won over to the Dark Side(tm) any time now. ;^)
It was only after I had children that I realized just how true Calvinism was.
There is no happy answer for a child or an adult to the question "why do people suffer?"
Children don't understand famine or disease or accidents or abandonment or loss.
But after raising two kids I learned that the best way to make sure they grow up secure and happy and strong is to say to them, "Everything is happening as it should. If there's some problem, God will help you fix it, because that is what He would want you to do. But there are no surprises with God. He is always with you."
You constantly appeal to the melodramatic "why would God create people to burn in hell?" But with that logic, Marlowe, why would a loving God create ANYONE to burn in hell? Your logic dictates an impotent God who dreads every action of His creation, lest they slip up and disappoint Him.
He's bigger than that.
At what point in an elect person's life is there the remotest chance that they will go to hell?
Before regeneration I would imagine.
There isn't, is there? They are not being saved from anything. They were never destined for hell, they were always destined for heaven before they ever entered into the world.
Just because the Elect are destined from Heaven does not mean they were never on their way to hell at some point in their life.
You see the problem, don't you ksen. If a person is to be saved from hell, he actually has to be on the road. The elect are never on that road. So the elect are never saved. They are merely destined for heaven.
No, I really don't see a problem. Let me try this analogy....
Let's say Jacksonville is hell and Orlando is heaven, I know it's a stretch, but bear with me.
To get to Orlando from my house you need to first go north on I-95. Well guess what road also takes you to Jacksonville? Yep, I-95.
At some point the Elect leave I-95 and head west on SR-528. It is at that point that they have left the road to Jacksonville and are exclusively headed towards Orlando.
Now apply that to the Saved and the Unsaved. We are all born going in the same direction, towards hell. The only difference is at some point God turns us off of that road and onto the road going exclusively to heaven.
The analogy may break down at some point, but what one doesn't?
Maybe you guys should stop using the term "saved." Then maybe we'd all understand what you are trying to say.
Do you have a better term in mind?
Which means that at some point after the foundation of the earth there had to be a possiblity that we could go either way. And since that possibility exists, predestination must be based on foreknowledge of what the future holds for a person. In other words our salvation depends upon something that happens after the foundation of the earth.
Thank you ksen. You just shot down the entire doctrine of Calvinistic predestination.
And He's been directing the traffic along those paths from the foundation of the world.
Nope, in fact I am doing my last class at home even as we speak.
BTW, there are Calvinists that attend there and there is even a Calvinist on staff in the Seminary. He gets along quite well with the rest of the staff and they get along quite well with him.
From the London Baptist Confession of 1689:
10. Effectual Calling1. Those whom God has predestinated to life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time to effectually call by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death which they are in by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ. He enlightens their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God. He takes away their heart of stone and gives to them a heart of flesh. He renews their wills, and by His almighty power, causes them to desire and pursue that which is good. He effectually draws them to Jesus Christ, yet in such a way that they come absolutely freely, being made willing by His grace.
2. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not on account of anything at all foreseen in man. It is not made because of any power or agency in the creature who is wholly passive in the matter. Man is dead in sins and trespasses until quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit. By this he is enabled to answer the call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed by it. This enabling power is no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
You keep confusing heading in the direction of a place with actually arriving at that place.
Thank you ksen. You just shot down the entire doctrine of Calvinistic predestination.
Nah, I'm not that smart.
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