Pastor and Flock Become Catholics

National Catholic Register ^ | April 2001 | Judy Roberts

[Frumanchu]

Transubstantiation does not make Christ's humanity omnipresent (present everywhere) but merely multipresent or multilocal (present in several places at once). That's not the same thing.

Six of one, half-dozen of the other. The issue isn't between whether he's omnipresent or multipresent, but rather that neither is a characteristic or ability of non-deistic beings. There is no record of the multipresence of angels, nor is there record of multipresent humans. The understanding of Christ's ability to pass through walls and doors is speculative and not explicitly stated in the text.

[Campion]

The issue isn't between whether he's omnipresent or multipresent, but rather that neither is a characteristic or ability of non-deistic beings.

Well, no, that's a conclusion that you want to make, but nothing supports it. Clearly, God is omnipresent. Multilocality is a lesser ability than omnipresence, so it's something that could belong to a lesser order of existence than divinity.

There is no record of the multipresence of angels, nor is there record of multipresent humans.

As I pointed out, there is such a record.

The understanding of Christ's ability to pass through walls and doors is speculative and not explicitly stated in the text.

John 20:19 and 20:26 make it crystal clear that Jesus was able to come into the midst of the disciples without doors being opened. There's nothing "speculative" about it.

[Phx_RC]

BTTT

[Salvation]

Welcome to FR!

[Catholicguy]

(c) The third and last question has to do with the multilocation of Christ in heaven and upon thousands of altars throughout the world. Since in the natural order of events each body is restricted to one position in space (unilocatio), so that before the law proof of an alibi immediately frees a person from the suspicion of crime, multilocation without further question belongs to the supernatural order. First of all, no intrinsic repugnance can be shown in the concept of multilocation. For if the objection be raised, that no being can exist separated from itself or show forth local distances between its various selves, the sophism is readily detected; for multilocation does not multiply the individual object, but only its external relation to and presence in space. Philosophy distinguishes two modes of presence in creatures:


the circumscriptive, and

the definitive.

The first, the only mode of presence proper to bodies, is that by virtue of which an object is confined to a determinate portion of space in such wise that its various parts (atoms, molecules, electrons) also occupy their corresponding positions in that space. The second mode of presence, that properly belonging to a spiritual being, requires the substance of a thing to exist in its entirety in the whole of the space, as well as whole and entire in each part of that space. The latter is the soul's mode of presence in the human body. The distinction made between these two modes of presence is important, inasmuch as in the Eucharist both kinds are found in combination. For, in the first place, there is verified a continuous definitive multilocation, called also replication, which consists in this, that the Body of Christ is totally present in each part of the continuous and as yet unbroken Host and also totally present throughout the whole Host, just as the human soul is present in the body. And precisely this latter analogy from nature gives us an insight into the possibility of the Eucharistic miracle. For if, as has been seen above, Divine omnipotence can in a supernatural manner impart to a body such a spiritual, unextended, spatially uncircumscribed mode of presence, which is natural to the soul as regards the human body, one may well surmise the possibility of Christ's Eucharistic Body being present in its entirety in the whole Host, and whole and entire in each part thereof.

There is, moreover, the discontinuous multilocation, whereby Christ is present not only in one Host, but in numberless separate Hosts, whether in the ciborium or upon all the altars throughout the world. The intrinsic possibility of discontinuous multilocation seems to be based upon the non-repugnance of continuous multilocation. For the chief difficulty of the latter appears to be that the same Christ is present in two different parts, A and B, of the continuous Host, it being immaterial whether we consider the distant parts A and B joined by the continuous line AB or not. The marvel does not substantially increase, if by reason of the breaking of the Host, the two parts A and B are now completely separated from each other. Nor does it matter how great the distance between the parts may be. Whether or not the fragments of a Host are distant one inch or a thousand miles from one another is altogether immaterial in this consideration; we need not wonder, then, if Catholics adore their Eucharistic Lord at one and the same time in New York, London, and Paris. Finally, mention must be made of mixed multilocation, since Christ with His natural dimensions reigns in heaven, whence he does not depart, and at the same time dwells with His Sacramental Presence in numberless places throughout the world. This third case would be in perfect accordance with the two foregoing, were we per impossible permitted to imagine that Christ were present under the appearances of bread exactly as He is in heaven and that He had relinquished His natural mode of existence. This, however, would be but one more marvel of God's omnipotence. Hence no contradiction is noticeable in the fact, that Christ retains His natural dimensional relations in heaven and at the same time takes up His abode upon the altars of earth.

There is, furthermore, a fourth kind of multilocation, which, however, has not been realized in the Eucharist, but would be, if Christ's Body were present in its natural mode of existence both in heaven and on earth. Such a miracle might be assumed to have occurred in the conversion of St. Paul before the gates of Damascus, when Christ in person said.to him: "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?" So too the bilocation of saints, sometimes read of in the pages of hagiography, as, e.g., in the case of St. Alphonsus Liguori, cannot be arbitrarily cast aside as untrustworthy. The Thomists and some later theologians, it is true, reject this kind of multilocation as intrinsically impossible and declare bilocation to be nothing more than an "apparition" without corporeal presence. But Cardinal De Lugo is of opinion, and justly so, that to deny its possibility might reflect unfavorably upon the Eucharistic multilocation itself. If there were question of the vagaries of many Nominalists, as, e.g., that a bilocated person could be living in Paris and at the same time dying in London, hating in Paris and at the same time loving in London, the impossibility would be as plain as day, since an individual, remaining such as he is, cannot be the subject of contrary propositions, since they exclude one another. The case assumes a different aspect, when wholly external contrary propositions, relating to position in space, are used in reference to the bilocated individual. In such a bilocation, which leaves the principle of contradiction intact, it would be hard to discover an intrinsic impossibility.



(Below, I'll link to the entire article).

[Catholicguy]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm

[Catholicguy]

The understanding of Christ's ability to pass through walls and doors is speculative and not explicitly stated in the text.

Now when it was late the same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them: Peace be to you.

[Catholicguy]

Well, Calvin was the first to deny this miracle. Maybe our friend is a Calvinist

[AAABEST]

There is a tradional Catholic forum if you want a place on the web where you can be around others like yourself.

[Catholicguy]

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/realpresence1.html

[AAABEST]

It's amazing to me that people who believe that God can create the universe, the sun, the world, the mountains and the seas, yet can't believe that Christ can be in 2 places at once or walk through a door.

Huh?

When people try to figure out God it's as an ant on the sidewalk trying to figure out Einstein's theory of relativity ... times 1000.

You're certainly on the right side of this, but I'm not sure if you're going to penetrate that level of sillyness!

[MarMema]

His human nature has been divinised by the action of the Holy Spirit, perhaps what the Orthodox would term theosis.

No, that would be incorrect.

[Frumanchu]

Maybe our friend is a Calvinist

He is.

[Catholicguy]

Oh. OK. So, what did you think of the links?

[Tantumergo]

"No, that would be incorrect."

So, would Orthodox theology have anything to offer on the nature or qualities of Christ's glorified humanity?

[Frumanchu]

Oh. OK. So, what did you think of the links?

Still working my way through them as time permits.

However, I have another question. Even given the communication of divine attributes to the glorified body of the "post-incarnate" Christ, what then is the explanation for the institution of the Lord's Supper in which Christ says that the bread is His body and the wine His blood? He is not at that point in a glorified body, and yet he says that the elements are His body and blood.

[NYer]

Here is Alex Jones’ story.

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

Wow, talk about digging up an old thread, how did you find it?

[narses]

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[Salvation]

We have a similar situation at our church — not the entire church converted, but the minister did. The next year his wife converted.

This year he taught a Bible Study Class and I think and Episcopal minister who attended may be on his way to Catholicism. We never know what will touch someone else.