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Christian History Corner: Why some Jews fear The Passion
ChristianityToday.com ^ | 20 February, 2004 | Collin Hansen

Posted on 02/25/2004 11:17:10 AM PST by Salem

Christian History Corner: Why some Jews fear The Passion
Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ gives Christians the chance to disavow a shameful history of anti-Semitism.
By Collin Hansen | posted 02/20/2004


The Passion of the Christ scares Abraham Foxman. The Anti-Defamation League's national director, currently cast in the role of reluctant film critic, has spent months warning anyone and everyone that The Passion will dramatically strain Christian-Jewish relations and revive age-old Christian hatred for Jews. While most Christians in the West balk at this suggestion, Foxman cannot be dissuaded. He knows the grim history.

"For almost 2,000 years in Western civilization, four words legitimized, rationalized, and fueled anti-Semitism: 'The Jews killed Christ,'" Foxman told the ADL national executive committee during a February meeting. "For hundreds of years those four words—acted out, spoken out, sermonized out—inspired and legitimized pogroms, inquisitions and expulsions."

When Foxman envisions Christ's crucifixion, he does not think about love, forgiveness, or hope. He recalls the Holocaust and Hitler's chilling praise for the famed Oberammergau Passion Play in 1934. He does not weep with unexplainable sadness and joy at the sight of humanity's Savior suffering an undeserved death. He'll never forget the horrifying tales of czarist-era Russian Jews fleeing bloodthirsty gangs bent on Holy Week revenge.

"Read the e-mails, read the Web sites encouraging people to see the film," Foxman warned. "How fragile it is out there. What a reservoir of hatred!"

Hatred? Can we possibly be thinking of the same event? How can he watch Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, the ultimate triumph over death and evil, and think of hatred? The answer to this question is impossible for Christians to fully understand. Sadly, the history of Passion play depictions has been marred by shocking violence against Jews.

"The menace of Jewry"
With the bubonic plague once again sweeping across Europe in 1633, the town leaders of Oberammergau, a Bavarian village, gathered together to beseech God for a miracle. If the Lord would spare little Oberammergau, they promised to thank him by performing a play every 10 years to commemorate Jesus' crucifixion.

After this vow, not one Oberammergau villager died of the plague. The town first performed the play in 1634. More than 350 years later, Oberammergau still remembers its promise. In 2000, nearly half of the town's 5,000 residents participated in the fortieth Oberammergau Passion Play, which drew nearly a half million tourists from around the world.

Yet in the late 1970s, Oberammergau began to draw the ADL's ire. Sensitized by the Holocaust, Jews, especially in Germany, turned a more skeptical eye on Passion plays. Oberammergau, in particular, had been a source of tangible pain. Adolf Hitler had visited the 1934 performance, giving it his eager blessing. "It is vital that the Passion play be continued at Oberammergau; for never has the menace of Jewry been so convincingly portrayed as in this presentation of what happened in the time of the Romans," Hitler had said. "There one sees Pontius Pilate, a Roman racially and intellectually so superior, that he stands out like a firm, clean rock in the middle of the whole muck and mire of Jewry."

To make matters worse, the Dachau concentration camp had performed its horrific duty not far from Oberammergau. While Hitler's brand of murderous anti-Semitism owed far more to scientific determinism than Christianity, he preyed on a history of faith-based persecution. When convenient, Hitler and his Nazi henchmen dredged up the anti-Semitic writings of an elderly Martin Luther to justify their hatred for Jews.

Hitler employed Oberammergau in a similar fashion. He remembered that during and immediately following the Middle Ages, enraged Passion play spectators sometimes invaded the ghettos to exact revenge on Jews for killing Jesus. He hoped Christians would react similarly after viewing the Oberammergau Passion Play. This and other Nazi overtures to the racism simmering barely below the surface of German religious culture produced mixed results, with some churchmen eagerly advocating Nazism and others opposing Hitler on Christian grounds.

Yet as Pope John Paul II acknowledged in 1997, many sincere Christians looked the other way during the Holocaust because in their estimation the Jews were getting what they deserved for rejecting Christ. "The erroneous and unjust interpretations of the New Testament regarding the Jewish people and their presumed guilt circulated for too long" and "contributed to a lulling of many consciences at the time of World War II, so that, while there were 'Christians' who did everything to save those who were persecuted, even to the point of risking their own lives, the spiritual resistance of many was not what humanity expected of Christ's disciples," the Pope told a group meeting to discuss "The Roots of Anti-Judaism in the Christian Milieu."

Guilty blood?
The Pope may have had the Slovakian papal nuncio in mind when making his remarks about the "lulled consciences" during World War II. When asked in 1942 to intervene on behalf of Jewish children slated by the Nazis to be deported to concentration camps, the nuncio refused. "There is no innocent blood of Jewish children in the world. All Jewish blood is guilty. You have to die. This is the punishment that has been awaiting you because of that sin [of deicide]," he replied. Deicide, which means "to kill God," is the foremost "erroneous and unjust" interpretation of Scripture that has incited so much hostility. In Passion plays, a difficult forum for conveying the theological nuance of humanity's collective culpability, the Jews have often become an inviting target.

Unfortunately, deicide has not been the lone charge directed collectively against Jews. As recently as the early twentieth century, pogroms sometimes erupted during Holy Week in Eastern European nations when rumors spread about Jewish crimes. Inflamed by outlandish accusations, such as the claim that Jews killed Christian children and used their blood to make matzo bread for Passover, unruly gangs searched out Jews to kill and maim.

This style of pogrom dates back to the First Crusade. Until this point European Jews largely eluded organized violence, but marauding crusaders on their way to the Middle East in 1096 stopped to slaughter Jews in the Rhineland. One crusader's account recalls, "Behold we journey a long way to seek the idolatrous shrine and to take vengeance upon the Muslims. But here are the Jews dwelling among us, whose ancestors killed him and crucified him groundlessly. Let us take vengeance first upon them. Let us wipe them out as a nation."

Outbreaks of Christian anti-Semitism related to the Passion narrative have been so numerous and destructive that theologian and Holocaust survivor Eliezer Berkovits concluded, "the New Testament is the most dangerous anti-Semitic tract in human history." But neither the New Testament nor The Passion of the Christ is about Jewish deicide or revenge. Each is about God placing the iniquities of us all on his one and only son, who suffered unspeakable brutality to redeem his estranged children. Now is the time for Christians to disavow the history of Passion-linked hatred and show Jews "how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ" (Eph. 3:18).

Collin Hansen is editorial resident for Christian History magazine.


TOPICS: Activism; Current Events; Evangelical Christian; History; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: abraham; foxman; gibson; history; israel; jews; mel; passion; zionist
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Some insights into the more legitimate concerns of the Jewish community concerning "The Passion." Always good to study a little of the history behind it. Other good links at this site. Some have probably already posted at FR.
1 posted on 02/25/2004 11:17:11 AM PST by Salem
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To: Salem; SJackson; yonif; Simcha7; American in Israel; spectacularbid2003; Binyamin; Taiwan Bocks; ...
'Ping!' Had this one forwarded to me.




If you'd like to be on or off this
Christian Supporters of Israel ping list,
please FR mail me. ~
  -  -
There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had
spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. (Joshua 21:45)

Letter To The President In Support Of Israel ~
'Final Solution,' Phase 2 ~
Warnings ~
2 posted on 02/25/2004 11:19:11 AM PST by Salem (FREE REPUBLIC - Fighting to win within the Arena of the War of Ideas! So get in the fight!)
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To: Salem
Nice summary, thanks for posting.
3 posted on 02/25/2004 11:28:24 AM PST by SJackson (Visit http://www.JewPoint.blogspot.com)
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To: SJackson
I get the 4 word basis of Foxman's fear.

I get the connection to the Passion Play.

I don't get this:

"Read the e-mails, read the Web sites encouraging people to see the film," Foxman warned. "How fragile it is out there. What a reservoir of hatred!"
What is Foxman talking about? Either Hellinahandcart is right here, or are we being played by closet pogromniks?

Here I am posting Rabbi Lapin's article and then telling our Christian friends to go see the movie and joking about JPFO. Hope I am not wrong...

4 posted on 02/25/2004 12:47:15 PM PST by Yehuda (http://www.JewPoint.blogspot.com)
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To: Yehuda
Antisemites existed before the film. Clearly it will be misused by some. Abe's predictions were self fulfilling from the day he started making them. The movie's not changing any minds, though it might allow some to come out of the closet.
5 posted on 02/25/2004 1:05:47 PM PST by SJackson (Visit http://www.JewPoint.blogspot.com)
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To: SJackson
Jesus was a Jew!
6 posted on 02/25/2004 3:14:28 PM PST by tessalu
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To: Salem
I'm not hearing a lot of "let's get even with the Jews" from people seeing The Passion. I don't see how this movie could make any rational person think any less of the Jews. Like it or not the Jews are the chosen people and any unfair offense against them is an affront to God.
7 posted on 02/25/2004 3:37:42 PM PST by BipolarBob (Your secrets's safe with me and my friends deep inside the earth.)
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To: BipolarBob; TrueBeliever9; American in Israel; joesnuffy; Mr. Silverback; Happy2BMe
"I'm not hearing a lot of "let's get even with the Jews" from people seeing The Passion. I don't see how this movie could make any rational person think any less of the Jews. Like it or not the Jews are the chosen people and any unfair offense against them is an affront to God."

Amen, Bob, amen. Thanks for saying! See my comments here, concerning a controversial sign some church has up.

8 posted on 02/25/2004 4:07:32 PM PST by Salem (FREE REPUBLIC - Fighting to win within the Arena of the War of Ideas! So get in the fight!)
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To: Salem
I think that it is ironic that the Jews on screen in 'The Passion', do not draw the ire of Christians so much as the Jews protesting outside the movie house or endlessly whining about it in the press do.
9 posted on 02/25/2004 5:33:09 PM PST by Between the Lines
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To: tessalu
SHALOM!

Hi...tessalu,

"Jesus was a Jew!"...CORRECTION...

JESUS (YESHUA THE MESSIAH) IS AND WILL ALWAYS BE A JEW FOR ALL ETERNITY.

HE IS The Alef and The Tav...The Beginning and The End.

10 posted on 02/25/2004 10:24:39 PM PST by Simcha7 ((The Plumb - Line has been Drawn, T'shuvah/Return for The Kingdom of HaShem is at hand!))
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To: 1bigdictator; 1st-P-In-The-Pod; 2sheep; a_witness; adam_az; af_vet_rr; agrace; ...
FRmail me to be added or removed from this pro-Israel ping list.

WARNING: This is a high volume ping list

11 posted on 02/27/2004 7:57:33 AM PST by Alouette (Atlantis -- the Real Palestinian State)
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To: tessalu
After Paul split with James, most of Jesus' followers were not, so what's your point?
12 posted on 02/27/2004 8:03:59 AM PST by sheik yerbouty
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To: Salem
I have not seen the movie yet (I will probably not see it until it comes out on DVD) so I will not say anything about the movie.

However, I am a bit concerned over the attitude, displayed by some people on this board, that anyone who expresses any misgivings whatsoever about the impact of this movie, its scriptural and historical accuracy, or Mel Gibson's motivations, is immediately an "anti-Christian bigot." Ironically, it's usually the very same people who complain that they can never criticise Israel without being called "anti-Semitic."

I am also angered by the hysterical comments from some allegedly "Orthodox" Jews (Eli Yisah and Tzvi Weinreb) who ought to know better. I know that viewing this movie is not goint to make me doubt my own religion and run out to become a Christian. What an insult to my faith and my commitment, to claim that it could be swept away by a movie and therefore I shouldn't be allowed to see it!

13 posted on 02/27/2004 8:06:35 AM PST by Alouette (Atlantis -- the Real Palestinian State)
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To: Salem
I've been writing posts and e-mails about this subject for the past three days till I can't think straight. Hopefully this will the the last one I write.

1) Orthodox Jews who know the Torah is from Heaven and that not one single letter or even part of a letter may ever be erased should show a modicum of sensitivity to people who mistakenly believe that the "new testament" in its entirety is also from Heaven. Until chr*stians are made to understand that the "new testament" is not from Heaven they cannot be expected to disobey or alter it. Jews who refuse to tell chr*stians that their religion is false, but who instead are making absolute demands in relativist terms ("let's forget about who's right or wrong, but you always have to make concessions and we never do") is committing a great chillul HaShem because no Bible-beliving chr*stian is going to associate this hypocritical liberal philosophy with genuine Biblical Judaism. Instead, he will be reinforced in his belief that the Jews apostasized from Biblical Judaism when they rejected J*sus.

2) Abe Foxman is not a nice person. To simple people who know only the composite chr*stian bible (ot/nt) his attacks on the gospels are indistinguishable from his attacks on `Aseret HaDibberot (the Ten Commandments). As a matter of fact, according to Don Feder, Foxman has publicly stated that literal interpretation of the "old testament" is as bad as literal interpretation of the gospels. What do naive chr*stians assume from all this? That Jews are not only against the "new testament" but "against the Bible" as a whole. I hope I am not the only Jew or Noachide on this forum who realizes what a great blasphemy this is.

3) Finally, as a former chr*stian myself who realizes the bind Jews are putting chr*stians in by refusing to speak in absolute terms ("we are the true religion") while demanding chr*stians violate the tenets of their religion, I want to go on record once and for all. J*sus deserved to die!!! Blasphemy is a capital offense and only a secular humanist would disagree with this. Under Torah, a Jew who commits blasphemy is to be executed by strangulation. And when Jews are not in a position to carry out Halakhic executions G-d often intervenes to carry them out Himself. How does crucifixion (which is NOT a Halakhic form of punishment) kill? By strangulation!!! G-d carried out the punishment!!!

I know my last point will offend many of you, but that is far better than telling you to go ahead and believe J*sus is G-d but don't obey him. What an unspeakably cruel demand to make of anyone!!! You don't have to obey him or believe the "new testament" because they are not true, and those "tolerant, compassionate" people who will not tell you this but still expect you to change your beliefs and practices are cruel.

You are being led to believe that Judaism opposes the gospels because it opposes Absolute Truth. In fact, it is because it is dedicated to Absolute Truth that it opposes them. I suppose it had to take a non-Jew and a former chr*stian to tell you all this.

14 posted on 02/27/2004 8:36:34 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (`Od Yehoshu`a Bin Nun chai!!!)
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: Salem
Good one that uninformed Christians should read. I already know all this
16 posted on 02/27/2004 9:00:17 AM PST by dennisw (“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.”)
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To: shanscom
Also, don't Muslims consider Jesus to be a major prophet? ......


SORTA. They like to use Jesus' death against the Jews and their view of Jesus is not the same as the Christian view by any means
17 posted on 02/27/2004 9:08:52 AM PST by dennisw (“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.”)
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To: Salem
Not buying it. Foxman is a waste of skin.
18 posted on 02/27/2004 9:55:01 AM PST by sauropod (I intend to have Red Kerry choke on his past.)
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To: Salem
"To make matters worse, the Dachau concentration camp had performed its horrific duty not far from Oberammergau. While Hitler's brand of murderous anti-Semitism owed far more to scientific determinism than Christianity, he preyed on a history of faith-based persecution. When convenient, Hitler and his Nazi henchmen dredged up the anti-Semitic writings of an elderly Martin Luther to justify their hatred for Jews."

But that was not their central reason.

Do not let political opportunism cloud your reason.

19 posted on 02/27/2004 9:56:28 AM PST by sauropod (I intend to have Red Kerry choke on his past.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Reasons Why No Honest Jew Can Become a Christian
20 posted on 02/27/2004 10:21:48 AM PST by Alouette (Atlantis -- the Real Palestinian State)
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To: Salem
" "The erroneous and unjust interpretations of the New Testament regarding the Jewish people and their presumed guilt circulated for too long" and "contributed to a lulling of many consciences at the time of World War II, so that, while there were 'Christians' who did everything to save those who were persecuted, even to the point of risking their own lives, the spiritual resistance of many was not what humanity expected of Christ's disciples," the Pope told a group meeting to discuss "The Roots of Anti-Judaism in the Christian Milieu."

The pope has gone senile.

21 posted on 02/27/2004 10:29:19 AM PST by sauropod (I intend to have Red Kerry choke on his past.)
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To: Alouette
I think it was Dennis Prager on Fox News the other night who put it very well, basically saying that one cannot expect Jews to not have any trepidation about this film, while at the same time acknowledging that it is a bit far out there to believe that the movie is going to provoke anti-semitism. He said (and I paraphrase) that due to the very nature of the film, Jews going to see it will naturally expect to see Jews portrayed badly, while Christians going into the theater will expect to feel personally responsible for the violence on screen.

It all comes down to one thing, imho, and that is that the left feels threatened by a strong relationship between Christians and Jews and will do whatever it can to break it down. This happens to be a convenient catalyst toward that end.

My husband and I are probably going to see this at a Saturday matinee. I want to see it, but at the same time I am afraid. No one likes to be confronted with their own guilt, which is exactly as I see it, and no doubt most evangelicals do as well.
22 posted on 02/27/2004 10:30:15 AM PST by agrace
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To: Alouette; hellinahandcart
I went to your link.

It appears to me that the author of the screed you linked does not understand the Bible, nor God.

Shame.

23 posted on 02/27/2004 10:33:10 AM PST by sauropod (I intend to have Red Kerry choke on his past.)
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To: sauropod
Shame.

Apparently the website owners do not agree with the presentation because they put up a disclaimer. However it is certainly possible for someone to have a knowledge of scripture and a deep faith in G-D without being a Christian.

24 posted on 02/27/2004 10:55:20 AM PST by Alouette (Atlantis -- the Real Palestinian State)
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To: Alouette
[::tips hat to Alouette, appreciatively::]
25 posted on 02/27/2004 11:01:13 AM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle (I feel more and more like a revolted Charlton Heston, witnessing ape society for the very first time)
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To: Alouette
Thank you for that link. In the midst of all the confusion swirling about this controversy the author explains the absolute necessity of Israel's remaining true to Judaism in simple, clear, absolute terms understandable to anyone who fears G-d and wishes to learn more about Him, and demonstrates to the inquirer that Israel's G-d is the True Biblical G-d of every man, and that the chr*stian "gxd" is indeed a foreign and strange "gxd."

May the Jewish People, the people eternally chosen by G-d to serve mankind in the capacity of a priesthood, speak words of G-dliness and assuredness to all mankind and shine so brightly that there will never be any doubt that HaShem is G-d, the Torah is His Word, and Israel is His holy people.

26 posted on 02/27/2004 11:08:57 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-'avi ve'immi `azavuni, veHaShem ya'asfeni.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Your position is, indeed, much more respectable than that of Foxman et al. I say this as a Christian who also believes it is completely false, *but* it is good that you consistently defend what you deem to be truth and don't water it down for the sake of some false unity.
27 posted on 02/27/2004 11:11:30 AM PST by Sloth (We cannot defeat foreign enemies of the Constitution if we yield to the domestic ones.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
ZC - From another non-jew, former Christian, i say...nice to see you in the Religion Forum.

Alouette - Excellent link in #20. Thank you.

ET - pinging you to ZC's comments, and Alouette's link. Just thought you'd appreciate them. ;-)
28 posted on 02/27/2004 11:17:01 AM PST by 1 spark (check out messiahtruth.com)
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To: Alouette
I am not denying that. I am denying the contention of the site that you put the link up for.
29 posted on 02/27/2004 11:18:33 AM PST by sauropod (I intend to have Red Kerry choke on his past.)
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To: Alouette; ET(end tyranny)
whoops...meant to put both of your names on my #28 here.
30 posted on 02/27/2004 11:18:53 AM PST by 1 spark (check out messiahtruth.com)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
"Until chr*stians are made to understand that the "new testament" is not from Heaven they cannot be expected to disobey or alter it."

Explain this.

To me, it is not the Christians that have rejected Jesus.

31 posted on 02/27/2004 11:20:29 AM PST by sauropod (I intend to have Red Kerry choke on his past.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Jesus is the Messiah. He is my Lord and Savior.

End of discussion.

32 posted on 02/27/2004 11:22:39 AM PST by sauropod (I intend to have Red Kerry choke on his past.)
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To: Salem
Some insights into the more legitimate concerns of the Jewish community concerning "The Passion."

I might agree that it is a legitimate concern, but do not agree that what happened should be defended as a current problem nor should Jews be collectively blamed then or now.

As to now, having seen the film, I believe that if you went in antisemitic, you would come out that way.

If you went in without any hate, you would come out that way.

Gibson, in no way guided the viewer to consider blaming anyone this in the film. No, quite the contrary, he guide the viewer to understand that Jesus died for our/my sins and forgave those who contributed in any way to his death. He forgave all, individually and collectively.

Especially me!

33 posted on 02/27/2004 11:33:45 AM PST by Cold Heat (In politics stupidity is not a handicap. --Napoleon Bonapart)
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To: Sloth
Your position is, indeed, much more respectable than that of Foxman et al. I say this as a Christian who also believes it is completely false, *but* it is good that you consistently defend what you deem to be truth and don't water it down for the sake of some false unity.

Believe me, as one who understands where you stand and how what I wrote must have wounded you, your words here are the highest compliment I could receive.

To tell non-Jews that Devout Jews want them to believe that religion doesn't matter is unconscionable. If I have accomplished nothing else in the years I have been on this forum at least let it be known that the reason Torah True Jews reject chr*stianity is for the sake of Heaven, just as you accept him for what you feel is the same reason.

34 posted on 02/27/2004 11:44:48 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-'avi ve'immi `azavuni, veHaShem ya'asfeni.)
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To: All
Can we please stop all the in-fighting?

The country... no, scratch that. The world is poised at a precipice not unlike that of 1939, or 1914... or perhaps an amalgam of both incredibly awful periods.

I'm trying to avoid saying "Can't we all just get along together", but really, folks (I'm not talking to "everyone", but the few I'm addressing know who you are), we're about to fall over the cliff, and we're too busy bickering over doctrinal purity.

At the risk of sounding trite, let's save the world first, and then bicker over who helped the most after the nightmare's over.

Note: "save the world" is meant in the colloquial sense, not the spiritual sense, OK? I really do see the world facing the kind of instability it did in the months leading up to WWI, with the kind of horror waiting in the wings that WWII delivered.

35 posted on 02/27/2004 4:56:08 PM PST by Don Joe (We've traded the Rule of Law for the Law of Rule.)
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To: sauropod
The pope has gone senile.

Well, maybe; but I don't see how you could make that determination on the basis of the text you quoted. Am I missing something here?

36 posted on 02/27/2004 4:58:12 PM PST by Don Joe (We've traded the Rule of Law for the Law of Rule.)
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To: sheik yerbouty
After Paul split with James, most of Jesus' followers were not, so what's your point?</i<

When did that happen?

37 posted on 02/27/2004 4:59:24 PM PST by madison10
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To: Don Joe
Well, I went back and read the text i quoted earlier. I must have misread it.

My bad.

38 posted on 02/27/2004 6:56:54 PM PST by sauropod (I intend to have Red Kerry choke on his past.)
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To: Alouette
"However, I am a bit concerned over the attitude, displayed by some people on this board, that anyone who expresses any misgivings whatsoever about the impact of this movie, its scriptural and historical accuracy, or Mel Gibson's motivations, is immediately an "anti-Christian bigot." Ironically, it's usually the very same people who complain that they can never criticize Israel without being called "anti-Semitic.""

I think a lot of it is blowback from the ACLU/Hard Left attack on Christianity in all quarters in America over the last four decades. "The Passion" has put that which the cultural Marxists have fought so hard to bury right back in the middle of the American consciousness. It is at the core of the Culture Wars—and it is indeed a war, and American Christians fight back.

"I know that viewing this movie is not going to make me doubt my own religion and run out to become a Christian. What an insult to my faith and my commitment, to claim that it could be swept away by a movie and therefore I shouldn't be allowed to see it!"

I applaud your objectivity and caliber. The entrance of this movie into the American cultural experience has perhaps presented some risk to the Jewish/Christian alliance in advocacy for the Nation of Israel. But it also has provided opportunity to overcome that. May we choose wisely. I know we will.

39 posted on 02/27/2004 7:22:45 PM PST by Salem (FREE REPUBLIC - Fighting to win within the Arena of the War of Ideas! So get in the fight!)
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To: madison10
I think sometime before the Romans sacked Jerusalem. Some early Christians had already settled east of the Jordan in Petra.
40 posted on 02/27/2004 8:15:40 PM PST by sheik yerbouty
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To: Salem
I consider much of what passed for "Christianity" over the past couple thousand years to be, politely stated, an aberration.

Unfortunately, modern perceptions are -- for good reason -- colored by this experience. And even more unfortunately, some of that aberrant form of "Christianity" persists to this day.
41 posted on 02/27/2004 8:18:15 PM PST by Don Joe (We've traded the Rule of Law for the Law of Rule.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; SJackson; yonif; Simcha7; American in Israel; spectacularbid2003; Binyamin; ...
Goodness....

I'll be up front with you ZC, although coming from a "simpleminded" Christian like me, I doubt it will have any impact.

You wield your head knowledge like a club and flaunt it like a peacock fanning its tail. But you have no wisdom or depth of heart.

Over the years, I've gone round and round with guys like you, in other venues and over other issues, and learned the hard way it doesn't do any good. So I don't do it anymore. Our time here is too short and too valuable.

You would do well to learn from the Jews at Free Republic who carry weight in my sphere of influence, like Yoni, SJackson, Yehuda, Slings and Arrows, Nachum, Nix 2, and Alouette. With me they model patience, grace, compassion, restraint and wisdom—the attributes of the Heart of G-d.

I didn't come to be a Christian 24 years ago lightly; through whimsical, vacillating notions or superficial terms, nor am I "led to believe" by any man. I met the Living God, and I know exactly what I am talking about. But you're going to straighten me out, huh? Amazing.

Buddy, all you have is religious head knowledge. Let me point this out to you, by using Alouette for example. She's the real deal, a Daughter of the House of Israel. She risks something every day of her life for the Lord, every time one of her kids gets back on a plane and flies into the Land of Israel to live there—and fight there. She stands, not in simple head knowledge, but a faith that impacts the real world, trusting in a living G-d that He will watch over and protect them in the middle of a situation few would willingly go—let alone build a life in.

Therefore, the Orthodox community she represents has my respect and admiration—and speaking on behalf of the Evangelical Christian community, our tangible and vocal support. They are living it. They are dying for it. Their faith isn't an intellectual contest and a pompous pretense to look down their nose at others, it is building a home and a life in The Land because G-d led them so, and they obey.

Studying it till you know it front and back, up and down, forward and backward, doesn't make the grade when the transit buses start blowing up and the Palestinian rockets and bullets are incoming, or you have family living any where near it, any time of the day or night.

The Jewish community knows were I stand. I know where they stand. We stand together because the Nation of Israel is quickly becoming ground zero in the contemporary history of mankind.

Whatta' you got? Who are you?




If you'd like to be on or off this
Christian Supporters of Israel ping list,
please FR mail me. ~
  -  -
There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had
spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. (Joshua 21:45)

Letter To The President In Support Of Israel ~
'Final Solution,' Phase 2 ~
Warnings ~

42 posted on 02/27/2004 8:44:30 PM PST by Salem (FREE REPUBLIC - Fighting to win within the Arena of the War of Ideas! So get in the fight!)
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To: Salem
Excellence In Posting
43 posted on 02/27/2004 9:09:57 PM PST by 185JHP ( "And the pure in heart shall see god.")
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To: Salem
bttt
44 posted on 02/28/2004 5:22:33 AM PST by lainde (Heads up...We're coming and we've got tongue blades!!)
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To: Salem
BTTT....
45 posted on 02/28/2004 6:36:04 AM PST by veronica ("America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our people." GW Bush 1-20-04)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
"If I have accomplished nothing else in the years I have been on this forum at least let it be known that the reason Torah True Jews reject chr*stianity is for the sake of Heaven, just as you accept him for what you feel is the same reason."

Be faithful now then . . describe the Messiah when comes to Jeruselum. Describe the Lion of Judah in human form as he will appear when he stands on Mount Olive.

46 posted on 02/28/2004 7:25:06 AM PST by Happy2BMe (U.S.A. - - United We Stand - - Divided We Fall - - Support Our Troops - - Vote BUSH)
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To: Salem; Zionist Conspirator; Don Joe
Well said, Salem.

...on behalf of the Evangelical Christian community, our tangible and vocal support. They are living it. They are dying for it. Their faith isn't an intellectual contest and a pompous pretense to look down their nose at others, it is building a home and a life in The Land because G-d led them so, and they obey. I couldn't have said it better.

ZC... I do, however, appreciate the sincerity of your point, and the committment to your beliefs. Although we might strongly disagree on many of the details, I have no doubt that we share the fundamentals, and that afterall, is most important. Pardon me, however, if I do not submit to being "...made to understand..." your point of view. Such condescension offends my secular sensibilities much more than your insight troubles my religious beliefs. That being said, I respectfully withdraw my three word response where you, Sir, are concerned, as I respect your point and the considerate way that you attempted to express it.

But, it is Mr. Joe that has scored a undisputed homerun on this thread, imo. "The world is poised at a precipice not unlike that of 1939, or 1914... or perhaps an amalgam of both incredibly awful periods." 35. Well put, Sir Don.

As I have said on a related thread..."The story of the Passion far surpasses religion, ethnicity, nationality and individual personalities. Christ's ordeal should be a warning to humanity of what happens when popular opinion, fed by irrational rhetoric and lies, fuel fear churned into violence and madness turned against anybody; whether they be a group like the Templars (ca. 1307), individuals like Galileo, a sect like the Mormons (ca. 1820), a people like the Jews (ca.1939), honorable leaders like George W. Bush, or a courageous story teller like Mel Gibson." 405

We may disagree about a good many things. And religion is certainly no 'petty' difference to be disregarded, as this current struggle suggests. But, we must keep our eye on the ball, so to speak. The world is erupting before us and the sides of humanity are being clearly differentiated between those who despise Man, and those who cherish the gift of life. Currently, the haters of Man would love nothing better than to divide their enemy with silly dogs of straw... bickering about irrelevant issue that they themselves (the Haters) have manufactured to disguise their own dogs of war.

If anything, the advent of The Passion should serve to remind both Jews and Christians (Neo-Jews, if you will) what happens when you allow your passions to be manipulated by heathens (Romans) and their lifeless sensibilities.

I'll end this by restating, Salem's own profound point, because I think that it needs to be said again...

The Jewish community knows were [Christians] stand. [We] know where they stand. We stand together because the Nation of Israel is quickly becoming ground zero in the contemporary history of mankind. Again... Well said, Sir.

Atos

47 posted on 02/28/2004 9:04:10 AM PST by Mr.Atos (Hate is not a western value... Its a liberal institution.)
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To: Salem
There really is no point in an ecumenical debate. There are no victors in such debates and a lot of hurt feelings. I have entered into such debates on FR and rarely is there a happy ending. Finally I just swore off "debate" on such things because it rarely accomplishes anything.

Many Jews have many fears about the movie and time will prove whether they are grounded or not.

When a group of evangelical Christians visited Jerusalem earlier this year, they were spoken to by Sharon who said in his speech that their support for Israel and Jews in Israel is very much appreciated. He even said that "We love you too", in responding to their love of Israel.

There is a storm brewing and we had better know who our friends are.

--'nuff said.

48 posted on 02/28/2004 10:27:48 PM PST by Nachum
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To: Nachum
I agree, 'nuff said.

But I also am still stunned by the info in the article about Hitler and Oberammergau.

I feel so sorry as a Christian for our past.

49 posted on 02/29/2004 2:54:38 AM PST by Taiwan Bocks
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To: Salem; 185JHP
Excellence In Posting

Agreed. bttt

50 posted on 03/03/2004 11:30:43 AM PST by kimmie7 (I'm featured in TaglinusFR? GREAT....now I gotta pay my writer more money! Pray for Jacob!)
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