The "Bible Alone" is Not Enough

Catholic Family News ^ | July 1995

[PetroniusMaximus]

***You better be listening to something besides scripture***

Your argument is not with me, friend, but with Jesus. I was simply paraphrasing him.

"He said to him,
If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."

[CARepubGal]

A little information for you: a big point of difference between thee and us narses: Church Discipline. There is no "moving the perverts around" between presbyteries (there IS removal of ordination however) and certainly nothing in Reformed Churches that is remotely akin to the scandals in Diocese of New Mexico which was where the Roman Catholic bishops sent the priests that were caught buggering children after "rehab."

[Siobhan]

But how can you claim this is Jesus. There is no textual identification. I can understand your wanting this to be Jesus. I can understand your wanting Jesus to be the messenger. But the messenger in the New Testament in Luke's account of the Gospel is clearly the angel named Gabriel. So these then could be the appearances of the angel of the Lord named Gabriel. Or from other accounts, the angel of the Lord Michael.

Apart from your wishing it to be Jesus, and your belief in Jesus as the most excellent messenger (and don't get me wrong -- I agree with the belief) -- but I still don't see how you get that from Scripture alone. I see how your desires, your longing, your hopes, your faith, all enter into that opinion. But not the Bible alone.

Now if you are Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic your position makes perfect sense since theophany is an essential category for understanding these Scriptural events. But how do you come by the use of the term "theophany"? Have I missed something here and you are a denominational Christian that isn't a BIble alone Christian? If so, please excuse my prattling on. But if you are a Bible only Christian, I am at a loss to understand how you have come to these things and who has taught you.

[Siobhan]

Even within the PCUSA?

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Man, these threads make me dizzy.***

Yes they can, dear Desdemona, but you know they really are critically important. And they make us search the scripture, which is invaluable.

Sometimes these threads resemble the old "party-lines"!

[findingtruth]

Your argument is not with me, friend, but with Jesus. I was simply paraphrasing him. "He said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."

Uh uh, buddy. My argument is not with Jesus. My argument is with you. The subject of this thread is, "The Bible Alone is Not Enough," and you were disputing that thesis, were you not? Well then, if the Bible alone really were enough, you wouldn't know which books belong in it and which don't, now would you? The Bible doesn't tell you, does it?

[CARepubGal]

I try to forget about that denomination under siege from within. The general leadership and many clergymembers of the PC(USA) are completely corrupt with some few congregations and pastors trying to stem the tide (think of someone bailing the Titanic out with a bucket) :( And they are sort of like the Dignity heretics you are so cursed with in far too many ways. The one exception is the Confessing Church movement which is the group bailing the Titanic out with the aforementioned bucket.

[narses]

More, if the Lord commanded JOHN and ONLY John to write, why is John's Gospel not the ONLY book in the canon?

[findingtruth]

If Sola Scriptura is enough, then why don't Protestants simply hand out the Bibles and be done with preaching and explaining, and interpreting and writing all those books they write about the faith.

You got it. A Protestant pastor delivering a sermon should simply step up to the pulpit, read some scripture, and then sit down. That's "Bible alone."

[PetroniusMaximus]

***But if you are a Bible only Christian,..***

This thread isn't about being a "Bible-Only Christian" (whatever that is - have you ever heard of one?) but a discussion as to whether the Bible alone in enough to save you. It sounds to me like the "Bible-Only" moniker is a caricature of the belief that one can come to saving faith through the scripture without recourse to the so-called sacred tradition.

***I am at a loss to understand how you have come to these things and who has taught you.***

Paul describes it this way...

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

***But how do you come by the use of the term "theophany"? Have I missed something here...?***

Theology, original languages, pseudopigraphical literature, extrabiblical source material are tools, like one would use glasses to see more clearly.

But theology is human process, and as such is prone to error, unlike the scripture.

Either way, the context on Rev. 1 is clear - Jesus is the First and Last - Jesus is speaking.

[findingtruth]

It sounds to me like the "Bible-Only" moniker is a caricature of the belief that one can come to saving faith through the scripture without recourse to the so-called sacred tradition.

Except that without that (Sneer!) sacred tradition, you wouldn't know which books belong in the Bible and which ones don't, now would you? Or are you, perhaps, relying on some other authority to tell you which books other than (Sneer!) sacred tradition?

[Siobhan]

Thank you very much for your patience and your indulgence. I know understand where you are coming from.

[Siobhan]

One more question please. Are you Episcopalian? I ask in that you mention sacred tradition and I take it you aren't Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.

[Salvation]

Catholic bump!

[Salvation]

**Cut the hyperbole or I'll have to pull out the priest child molestation card.**

Aren't you being a little harsh here?

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Except that without that (Sneer!) sacred tradition, you wouldn't know which books belong in the Bible and which ones don't, now would you? Or are you, perhaps, relying on some other authority to tell you which books other than (Sneer!) sacred tradition?***

I use the term "So-called" sacred tradition because by it you mean all the theological developments of the past 2,000 years, some of which, in all good conscious, I can not call call holy or sacred.

I am indebted to my Christian forefathers. I am indebted to Irenaus, Polycarp, Clement, Origen, Eusebius, Athanasius and so many others.

I want to hug the neck of the author of the Didache when I see him!

They are my brothers in Christ.

But they are not my masters!

I have but one master, and that is Christ. And he has told me that if I hear his words and put them into practice, my house will be built on the rock and I will whether the furious storm of the Last Judgement.

[Salvation]

Good job, friend. No, excellent, outstanding job! God bless!

[Salvation]

See #68

[PetroniusMaximus]

***One more question please. Are you Episcopalian?***

I am a Christian. I honestly want no other name.

Jesus saved me, a snot-nosed punk from the edge of hell, full of sin and drugs and hate. A nobody and a nothing but a blot on his creation.

He brought me to my knees and made me see thy my life was a ruin because I was the one at the steering wheel. I gave my life to him because I had nothing left to loose.

He gave me a new heart and open my heart to his wonderful love! It didn't matter what I had done - I knew he truly loved me. He gave me a love for the Bible, which I proceeded to consume like a starved man.

I've been following him (with some MAJOR stumbles) ever since. I look back on what happened and all I can say is - it was a miracle what he did for me.

[Siobhan]

I use the term "So-called" sacred tradition because by it you mean all the theological developments of the past 2,000 years, some of which, in all good conscious, I can not call call holy or sacred.

I am indebted to my Christian forefathers. I am indebted to Irenaus, Polycarp, Clement, Origen, Eusebius, Athanasius and so many others.

I want to hug the neck of the author of the Didache when I see him!

So it is sort of a cafeteria thing for you then.