SCHISM OF MIND AND HEART

The Lord Byron Foundation for Balkan Studies ^ | May 8-10, 1998 | Vincent Rossi

[MarMema]

Hopefully a few answers here for those who have asked why the Orthodox prefer that Russia stay primarily Orthodox, and why some believe that Russians should be Orthodox.

Hopefully also a few answers here for those who wonder why we still talk about Constantinople and seem to always be living in the past or holding a grudge.

And perhaps some theology discussion for those who are interested and can be respectful of other cultures.

[MarMema]

Ping for mutually respectful discussion or a long, but rewarding read.

[MarMema]

Posted in honor of the Serbian people and in memory of the 35 Orthodox churches and monasteries burned to the ground by rioting Albanian muslims last week. And for the 30 or so people who died, and the thousand injured, and in honor of the many courageous Italian, Greek, Czech, and American Kfor troops who risked their lives to stop the mobs.

Fierce clashes in Kosovo.

selective silence (many pics)

Russia aids Kosovo

[kosta50]

This is a wodnerful piece, but I think it should have been presented in sections, based on several topics, such as the "Filioque" and others.

I would only like to clarify the "greatest Serbian defeat" in Blackbird's (i.e. Kosovo, from the the Serbian word kos, and adjective kosovO) Field (Polye):

(1) The Serb units dispached by the Serbian king of Bosnia and territories, Tvrtko Kotromanich, actually defeted the Turkish wing they engaged and were falsley led to believe that the battle was won and returned to Bosnia bringing "good news."

(2) The Serbian heavy cavalery, commanded by Vuk Brankovich, waited by for orders to go into the battle and supposedly never received them. So they picked wild strawberries while the Serbian light infantry was getting killed in the central and right wings. Leged holds Brankovich as the personification of treason.

(3) A Serb knight by the name of Milosh Obilich went to the Ottoman camp and when lead to the Sultan killed him.

(4) The loss of the commander-in-chief was held hush-hush by his son Bayazit, who led the Ottoman army to victory against light Serb infantry the next day. Perhaps he knew that Brankovich would not intervene and took a chance.

(5) The Turkish army, having beheaded Serb nobility for refusing to convert to Islam, withdrew after the battle to what is today the Former Yugoslav Republic of Madeconia (FYRM), where they remained for almost a century before coming back to occupy Serbia and Bosnia for good.

The point is that the Battle of Kosovo in 1398 is always portrayed in simplistic terms as a win-lose encounter. Historical fact and aftermath are not so black-and-white.

Yes, the Serbs were defeated in the field for several reasons, but the Turkish army suffered great losses, was deeply wounded, and was unable to remain in the area, but had to withdraw and regroup, a process that took many decades -- the time Europe was given as a gift by the Serbs to fortify its defenses against the Ottomans. If it had not been for the Serbs, today's West European topography would be studded with mosques.

[kosta50]

One should certainly not dismiss the fact that Serbian knyaz or Lazar (he was a prince not an emperor, i.e. knyaz not a tsar), asked Catholic countries to help Serbs fight the Ottomans in Kosovo, specifically the Hungarian monarch. Not a single Catholic country was willing to extend support to their Serb Orthodox Christians trying to stop the invasion of Islam into Europe.

[MarMema]

Not a single Catholic country was willing to extend support to their Serb Orthodox Christians trying to stop the invasion of Islam into Europe.

Which is exactly why I posted this. The explanation of why we are continuously ignored and left to be killed by our western brethren. Why few of them care even now about the Serbs and their plight. Just a special few here and on the net, you must agree, care at all, enough to think about how it may affect them someday as they ponder what is on television this evening.

[MarMema]

but I think it should have been presented in sections

OTOH, a full presentation separates the chaff from the wheat. :-)

[Aliska]

Do you remember when that icon started weeping in that Albanian (St. Nicholas) Orthodox Church in Chicago? It happened around 1988 or 1989. No, it was 1986 or 1987 because I was still working then, and my son heard about it on tv and called me at work. It started on the feast day of St. Nicholas. What was happening in the Balkans in that timeframe?

I went to that church in about the fall of 1988, yes I suppose out of curiosity, but by the time I was able to visit, the weeping had stopped. I never believed it was a fraud, but I had no explanation for it.

It is possible that nah. Just thought I'd mention it.

There's quite a bit about it on the net. Sorry the photograph isn't the best quality.

The plight of the Serbians is in my heart and my prayers. If they didn't have to put up with so many foreign troops and persecution, it looks kind of neat how they live. Maybe backward to the western mind, but not lacking in the things that really matter. Simple but adequate homes, interesting architecture, and the scenery is probably pretty. I don't know how the winters would be there, probably similar to where I am.

[MarMema]

ping

[MarMema]

What was happening in the Balkans in that timeframe?

Roughly, Albania was either about to fall apart completely or falling apart. Interesting question. We were just discussing that time period in Albania on the Solana thread.

I don't think wonders will mind my copying her comment here. Here is what she found online -

" The turning point, as far as the organized crime concerning Albanians from Kosovo was around late 1997/early 1998, I think. Oh, here we go, I found this (from The San Francisco Chronicle:

The rise of Kosovar bosses to the pinnacle of the drug trade -- and the sudden, simultaneous appearance of the KLA -- dates from 1997, when the Berisha government fell in Albania amid nationwide rioting over a collapsed financial pyramid scheme that destroyed the savings of millions and wrecked the economy. In the unchecked looting that followed, the nation's armories were emptied of weapons, explosives and ammunition."

Thanks for your interest and for making this very interesting parallel.

[Aliska]

I don't know if it is relevant to the situation in Kosovo or not, but thank you for the history lesson. Evidently things started getting really bad about ten years after the weeping in Chicago, and there have been many other orthodox weeping icons.

Maybe it has something to do with this:

"On our way back to Milwaukee, Edmund and I passed Saint Nicholas Albanian Orthodox Church. For months in this church, an icon of the Virgin had been weeping. Streams of an oily liquid formed at the bottom of the Virgin's eyes and streams of tears flowed down the painting and onto the shoulders of the baby Christ held in her lap. St. Nicholas Church became a pilgrimage center as thousands came to view the miracle. Edmund and I decided to ask a priest of the church to bless the aborted babies with the Virgin's tears. We knew our request was unusual. We left the box of approximately forty bodies in the car and went into the church hall. We thought it best to leave the aborted babies in the car until we had explained our request. We saw a priest, perhaps in his mid-fifties, in a long black cassock and wearing an eastern rite pectoral cross. He was across the small hall in conversation with a nun in a flowing gray habit. We approached them. The nun finished speaking to him, then took the priest's hand and kissed it. I was impressed with her happiness and with the obvious fondness and deference she had for the priest. She left quickly and the priest turned his attention to us. We told him we were in possession of the bodies of aborted babies and explained that we had taken them out of the trash behind an abortion clinic in Chicago. The priest was horrified and he blessed himself several times imploring the mercy of God. He then exclaimed in a charming, almost childlike way: "Did you call the police? They should know about this. They should be told."

"The clinic is not doing anything illegal. I mean it's legal to kill the babies and its legal to throw them away," I explained.

"Well, what can I do?" asked the priest.

"Will you bless the bodies with the oil coming from the Virgin's eyes?" Edmund asked.

"The kindly priest told us that the priests of the church had discerned that the Virgin wanted her tears to be used to anoint people for healing purposes and that it was a little late for that in our case. Edmund asked the priest if he would bless the bodies in the sanctuary with holy water near the weeping icon. The priest agreed. Edmund went to the car and came back with the box. We entered the church, crossing a threshold from the profane world into the sacred. Out on the street, with the cars whizzing by, was the busy material world filled with distractions. But when we entered the church we were instantly enveloped by a sacred space. The icon-covered walls and ceiling drew us into the things of heaven--all that was holy, noble and mysterious. The small church was lit only by the many pilgrim's tapers. Their dancing flames bathed the church in a warm amber glow.

"The priest told Edmund to place the box on a chair that was in the left part of the sanctuary space. The priest opened the box and was exposed to the blood-filled bags. He blessed them. He blessed them solemnly and carefully, sprinkling the holy water on them as he pronounced a blessing in the name of the Trinity.

"With the ritual finished the priest looked up at us.

"God bless you, Father," I said.

"He stood near the weeping icon and turned to leave. He glanced upon us for a second. His own eyes glistened with tears. He was overcome with emotion, and in silence he exited into the darkness of the sanctuary.

"In the night the babies lay in the middle of a trash barrel. The next day they lay in the middle of a shrine. Between the night and day the tortured moral drama of our age had been played. What is man that God should be mindful of him? So asked the biblical author. The abortion ethic has an answer to this question when its deacons of death consecrate human life to the waste containers. Only what is useful or purposefully chosen by our wills is meaningful. In the abortion ethic the human will creates the value of life. And in this war over the meaning of human life, we gave the bodies of the aborted unborn to a priest who returned them to the God who had made their lives sacred in His image.

Read it and weep

I just stumbled across that trying to find out more about what happened in the little church in Chicago and if anyone had figured out why. I didn't mean to hijack your thread off topic, but that's where my search tonight took me.

[MarMema]

I didn't mean to hijack your thread off topic, but that's where my search tonight took me.

Your post was beautiful and made me cry. Thank you so much for sharing that story. It is worth a post of its own.

[Conservative til I die]

Hopefully a few answers here for those who have asked why the Orthodox prefer that Russia stay primarily Orthodox, and why some believe that Russians should be Orthodox.

Yeah, it's called theological gangsterism.

[MarMema]

Pravoslavophobia reigns in the religion forum. Too bad so many here have lost sight of Christ. I posted two articles here with the intent of improving goodwill and understanding between your church and the church in Russia.

In both cases I had quick replies from those of your church which were hateful of Russia.

The hate that consumes so many of you is certainly the result of the attack of the evil one recently on your church. It has shown much success when it drives you to be so hateful and mean-spirited. Many of you have not lost Christ, but I am sad for those of you who so obviously have.

I doubt that you even read the writing or understood what I was hoping it would explain. It is unfortunate since it is exactly about a separation between your mind and your heart.

It is telling that you see what you do in others. We are each a reflection of the one we serve. I hope you find your soul.

[MarMema]

If anyone could ever wonder why Alexy wishes to keep the pope at a distance, they have only to read the hateful anti-Russian
catholics posting here. If this is an example of our "sister church", let us have no siblings.

[Conservative til I die]

In both cases I had quick replies from those of your church which were hateful of Russia.

No one hates Russia, at least not me. I'm even about 1/8th Russian myself.

I actually admire Russia's move towards freedom and capitalism, and if they're going to maintain some sort of official religion, I'd rather it be Orthodoxy rather than Islam or the old Soviet atheism.

However, I'll call a spade a spade, and when Orthodox patriarchs start telling Catholics and others to get lost because Russia is "our turf," that's religious gangsterism. Could you imagine if say, Presbyterians told Catholics to get out of America because it's their turf?

[Titanites]

No one hates Russia, at least not me.

Based on the fact that my diocese provides full support of a mission church in eastern Russia, I'd posit that we actually love Russia.

[Conservative til I die]

Based on the fact that my diocese provides full support of a mission church in eastern Russia, I'd posit that we actually love Russia.

You're preaching to the choir, brother. Unfortunately, there are some here who view religion like a soccer rivalry.

[The_Reader_David]

A nice article, and while it does give a good explanation (I hope understandable to those outside the Church) of the historical roots of the Western incomprehension of and antipathy toward Holy Orthodoxy, as well as touching on the actual theological import of Western secularism, I don't think it quite explains Western pravoslavophobia.

Western papism, protestantism and secularism all likewise partake of a completely different understanding of the world and of ultimate realities from such East Asian religions Buddhism and Taoism, but except for the occasional protestant evangelical ranting against them as species of paganism, one senses none of the hostility which is directed toward Holy Orthodoxy. Indeed Western secularists, liberal protestants and even some Latin Christians (Thomas Merton comes to mind) are fascinated by and love flirting with Buddhism and Taoism.

And while in this, as much as in either the hatred or the blank incomprehension of Holy Orthodox exhibited by most Westerners, we see the work of the forces preparing the way of the Anti-Christ, I think we might look a little at the 'how' of the demons' prompting of fascinated tolerance for non-Christian religions along with intolerance of pure Christianty as kosta50 likes to call Holy Orthodoxy.

The fascination with Buddhism and Taoism stems from a longing for what has been lost in the Christian and then secular post-Christian West, a longing which is truely satisfied by a return to Holy Orthodoxy. But alas, it is too easy for the demons to block that path of return.

Westerners by and large will not look at Holy Orthodoxy squarely and objectively, because to do so means abandoning their most cherished preconceptions: Papists find evidence that their ecclesiology is a lie, that the Pope of Rome was never the head of the Church in the sense they imagine; protestants find their claim to have 'reformed' the Church in the sense of restoring her is likewise a lie; secularists are robbed of their talking-points against Christianity, all of which are either coopted by the Orthodox (yes, the Crusades, the Inquisition and the wars of religion were very evil things) or become irrelevant because they address the seculative theological heirs of Blessed Augustine and not the experiential (I would even dare to say, empirical--remembering that the noetic sense is the most important sense) theology of the Orthodox.

Even those who truely wish to repent of their sins sometimes have a hard time turning away from a lie they have lived all their lives. Those who fancy themselves more or less fine as they are, but are whistfully seeking something, aren't likely to discard misconceptions ingrained by their culture from their youth. And, glimpses of the fact that truth would demand they do so makes them angry. This, I think, is the 'how' of the demonic prompting to pravoslavophobia.

[kosta50]

If anyone could ever wonder why Alexy wishes to keep the pope at a distance, they have only to read the hateful anti-Russian catholics posting here

The problem is not the existance of non-Orthodox religions in Russia. No one is closing Roman Cathlic churches or sinagogues, or mosques there.

The core of the problem lies in the attempt to "evangelize" Russian Orthodox population! That, in effect, is telling the Russian Orthodox that they are not Christian!.

One must seriously question the motives of those who are "evangelizing" (i.e. "converting to Christianity") people who have been Christians for more than a millenium.

Given the vast multititudes of humanity who have not been baptized, the Western evangelists of all denominations must have their priorities mixed up in addition to denying one of the most Christian people their own Christianity.

We are not even talking some peripheral off-shoots of Christianity that deny Trinity, but truly orthodox followers of the teachings of the Fathers of the Church, a church with valid priesthood and Apostolic authority shared with the Roman Catholic Church, a faith with the same number of Sacraments, and Eucharistic litrurgy.

It is really sad that a church, whose membership outnumbers the Orthodox Christian faithful at least fourfold, finds it necessary to alienate, insult and politicize a church that is in every way its closest and valid relative, simply because it justifiably rejects papacy and the notion that the early Church was anything like the pope-dominated present one. That hardly seems like a valid priority for anyone interested in evalngelizing the world.