Posted on 04/13/2004 9:50:22 PM PDT by RaceBannon
I think you misread shroudie on this point. The caveat that the Shroud may be exhibited with the announcement that it is a "representation" IS entirely political BECAUSE of the dispute between Lirey and the Bishop. The Pope found a way to mollify those putting pressure on the Bishop as he SILENCED the Bishop on this subject, and still allow the exhibition of the Shroud which the King of France had already approved. Everybody walked away with something. Political... and good politics at that.
Actually, if they color you than you must be a forgery. You will have to emanate the colors all by yourself :)
I'm unconvinced, too.
And you know that ... how? I mean, there is nothing said in the Bible about nobody ever having visions ever again after some arbitrary date. Paul had a vision. Stephen had a vision as he died. Peter performed miracles. Have the rules changed since the book of Acts? Where in the Bible does it say there are no more visions or miracles?
We have the Word of God. We do not need new revelation.
This is certainly true. What is certainly false is the contention that God only gives you what you need. Do loving fathers only give their children what they need, or do they sometimes give them little bonuses out of the abundance of their love?
Well said!
So much for respecting someone else's religion.
This is how I know:
(1 Cor 13:8 KJV) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
(1 Cor 13:9 KJV) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(1 Cor 13:10 KJV) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
I know it because the Bible DOES say these things will pass.
Even the Church history tells us that.
What is a prophet?
WRONG DEFINITIONS OF PROPHECY:
"the ability to understand and to engage in the exposition of the Word of God."
"the gift of prophecy was actually the ability to proclaim God's Word...The gift (of prophecy), then, is the ability to speak before people, to proclaim God's Word, sometimes with a predictive element".
These definitions are inadequate and faulty. According to these definitions, any gifted Bible teacher, any gifted pastor would have the gift of prophecy. Every pastor should have the ability to proclaim God's Word and to engage in the exposition of the Word of God, but this does not make the pastor a prophet.
These definitions fail to make a proper distinction between the gift of prophecy and the gift of teaching. See 1 Corinthians 12:28-29 where a clear distinction is made between those gifted as teachers and those gifted as prophets.
GOD'S DEFINITION OF PROPHECY:
"And thou shalt speak unto him, and PUT WORDS IN HIS MOUTH: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. And he shall be THY SPOKESMAN unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God" (Exodus 4:15-16).
"And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a GOD to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy PROPHET. Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land" (Exodus 7:1-2).
Aaron was to be the spokesman for Moses. As the PROPHET was to GOD, so Aaron was to Moses. What did this mean? Aaron spoke the words of Moses, even as the prophet speaks the words of God. Aaron was to be the MOUTH of Moses even as the prophet is to be the MOUTH (mouthpiece) of God. Aaron was Moses' SPOKESMAN, even as the prophet is God's SPOKESMAN, serving as God's mouth, delivering God's message ("Thus saith the LORD!"). This is God's definition of a prophet. Thus prophecy is the God-given gift whereby the person is able to deliver God's message and speak forth God's Word. Every true prophecy would have this seal stamped upon it: "For the MOUTH of the LORD hath spoken it!"
There are New Testament passages which help us to understand the gift of prophecy: "For the PROPHECY came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:21).
The prophets spoke (and wrote) as they were moved (carried along) by the Holy Spirit, so that what they spoke (and wrote) was exactly what God intended. It was God's message, God's Word. "Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying..." (Matthew 1:22).
God is the one who spoke it, but how did He speak it? He used the prophet's mouth (in this case, the prophet Isaiah). It was God's message and God's Word, but it was delivered by way of a human mouth.
A prophet had to be 100% accurate (see Deut. 18:21-22). Why? Because God is 100% accurate and the true prophet is God's mouthpiece. It is God's message delivered through the prophet's mouth and it is 100% accurate. This illustrates the difference between a prophet and a teacher. The prophet, when speaking as a prophet, speaks forth the Word of God ("Thus saith the Lord!") and the message is infallible and 100% accurate. The teacher (or pastor/teacher) explains the Word of God which has already been given. Even the best Bible teacher is fallible and may err.
What is prophecy? Prophecy is inspired speech! It is nothing less than the Word of God in spoken or written form. See Micaiah’s definition of prophecy in 2 Chronicles 18:13.
What is a prophet? A prophet is God's mouthpiece through whom God spoke and gave His perfect, infallible revelation.
Are there true prophets today?
Many insist that the gift of prophecy is still being given today. Think of the implications of this. This would mean that God is still giving His Word today and that the canon of Scripture is not closed. The Bible we have would thus be incomplete. The 66 Books of the Bible are not enough if added revelation is still being given today by God through modern day prophets. The Bible would be missing vital information and crucial truths which these modern day prophets must supply. The Bible is not enough! We need the Bible plus the new prophecies!
This kind of teaching is a serious attack on the sufficiency of the Bible as our final and only authority for faith and practice. We need to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4) and these words are found in the 66 books of the Bible.
"No, the church doesn't need new revelation from heaven today! We already have a completed Bible and the Holy Spirit of God to interpret and apply it. What the church needs is a new confrontation with the whole counsel of God, proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit with authority and love, by men who know their God and who honor His only written revelation. Then, and then only, may we expect our deepest needs to be supplied, and God's purpose for His Church to be accomplished in our day."
There are clear indications in the New Testament that the gift of prophecy was a temporary gift needed in the days of the early church, but no longer needed after the Bible had been completed.
In 1 Corinthians 13:8 we learn that prophecies would be done away, whereas faith, hope and love would remain. This prediction came to pass at the end of the first century.
In Ephesians 2:20 we learn that apostles and New Testament prophets were foundational men: "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." A foundation is laid only once at the beginning of the building project. You do not keep laying a foundation. These men were foundational because it was through them that we received the New Testament Scriptures. We do not need to lay the foundation again, but we need to build upon it. It is possible that God's building project has reached the "steeple stage," as it were, and soon the last "living stone" (1 Peter 2:5) will be laid in place and Christ will then come to receive the church unto Himself (John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 4:13-18).
In 2 Peter 2:1 there is the possible hint that the true gift of prophecy would be done away: "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."
Notice carefully:
"there were false prophets"
"there shall be false teachers"
The devil counterfeits the true. When Peter wrote these words there were true prophets and the devil countered with false prophets. After the gift of prophecy was done away there were no longer any true prophets for the devil to counterfeit. There were, however, true teachers, and so the devil countered with false teachers.
Do we need added revelation today? Do we need dreams, visions, prophecies, special revelation, etc.?
The Charismatic Answer:
Neo-Pentecostals maintain that biblical authority (the word written) must always be subservient to the authority of the living, "dynamic" word of God made known through the present activity of the Spirit himself...The subservience of Scripture—the word written—to the Holy Spirit's authority is also illustrated by the acceptance in Charismatic Renewal of the validity of the gift of prophecy in the life of the contemporary Church. For the Neo-Pentecostal (no less than his Classical counterpart), God speaks today just as authoritatively as he spoke to the biblical authors. This [is an] existential understanding of the Word of God (in which revelation did not cease with the closing of the canon). Catherine Marshall puts it another way: "Jesus' promise of `further truth' gives us clear reason to believe that not all the truth and instruction Christ has to give us is contained in the canon of the Old and New Testaments." In Neo-Pentecostalism, then, spiritual authority rests ultimately in the present activity and teaching of the Holy Spirit at least as much as in the Bible itself...God does not restrict his revelation to the Bible (i.e., a closed canon).
According to this, charismatics believe that the Biblical canon is not closed, and thus the written Word of God is not the final authority. They believe that God gives added revelation to the church today and that this new revelation is just as authoritative, or even more authoritative, than the Bible itself.
The key issue then is the SUFFICIENCY of the Word of God. Is the Bible really sufficient? Is it really all that we need, or do we need something additional? Is God's communication to man found in the Bible alone, or must we look somewhere else? Is the Bible complete, or does it lack vital information that believers need to know?
1) Christ promised the Apostles that the Spirit of truth would guide them into ALL TRUTH (John 16:13). The Spirit did guide them into all truth and this truth was incorporated into the New Testament Scriptures. What more do we need?
2) Paul tells us that the God-breathed Scriptures are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works (2 Timothy 3:16-17). What more do we need?
3) Peter says that we have a more sure word of prophecy than even the eyewitness account of an apostle, namely the Spirit-moved, infallible Word of God (2 Peter 1:15-21). What more do we need?
4) Jude tells us that we are to earnestly contend for "the faith" (the body of truth) which was once for all delivered to the saints. This body of truth was once for all delivered to the saints in the first century and is found in written form in our Bible today. What more do we need?
5) John puts the final "PERIOD" at the close of God's completed revelation, warning us not to add to or to subtract from this book (Revelation 22:18-19). When the final word was penned by John in the book of Revelation, this marked the time when the Bible (all 66 canonical books) were in completed form. What more do we need? The canon of Scripture is closed and what God hath closed, let no man open. If God says, "The Bible is enough!" let not man say, "We need more!"
That many should be claiming to have received visions and revelations from the Lord is not surprising in light of 1 John 4:1-3; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:13; 4:2-4; Matthew 7:15-24; 24:4-5. In these last days before the coming of the Lord Jesus for His church (1 Thess. 4:13-18), we can expect an increase of subjective, experiential religion: "It must be true because it happened to me!" What we need is revelational religion, based upon objective and absolute truth: "It must be true because God said so in His Word."
Today we need humble men who will tremble at the Word of God (Isaiah 66:1-2). We do not need new revelation today. We need to obey and walk worthy of the revelation that we already have! We do not need more light today. We will stand before Christ and give an account for the way we responded to the light that we had!
There is a sense in which the church is in desperate need of a vision today. We need a fresh vision of God. We need to see the Lord high and lifted up (Isaiah 6:1-9). We need a glimpse of all that GOD IS (Isaiah 43:10-11). The more we see Christ as He really is, the more we will be like Him (1 John 3:2). As we fix our eyes upon Christ as He is seen in the written Word and as we look unto Jesus (Heb. 12:1-2) with a steady gaze, we will reflect the glory of the Lord as our lives are conformed to His image, from glory to glory (2 Cor. 3:18).
Yeah yeah, and "foosball is da debbil"! Give it a rest.
so a dying vision of my own during a Near Death Experience is "practicing witchcraft" - thats a bit of a stretch
Contacting dead people is spiritism, it is the occult.
I agree - 'cept I didnt contact any dead people - a living Jesus contacted me as I was dying and sent me back. So comparing my NDE with the conscious contact of dead spirits is a bit deceptive if not wholly bending the truth.....Lord knows youre becoming too comical - a caricature even of yourself
now why would someone (or some entity) try and throw doubt into me?
hmmmmmm
Race - your hatred of anything remotely Catholic is borderline obsessive and if it werent so compulsively heaped, it would be somewhat amusing. Excepting Race Bannon stomping his feet and saying it didnt happen - I am faced with a proven liar on this thread telling me a NDE is occultic or Jesus Christ appearing to me and telling me it wasn't my time yet.
I know of another fellow at church who suffered a heart attack at work, died - and was zapped back by the EMT's - when he revived, he was angry that they brought him back as death was so peaceful. With that - he repented & rolled his eyes and flat lined again, they brought him back and he got angrier - flat lined again - and finally revived - later telling anyone who would listen that the peace is unbelieveable.
Seems a bit farfetched that Satan would present an opportunity for this guy to repent and draw closer to God. But you are certainly entitled to your mental flatulence opinion.
Blessings to you
...sigh...
(2 Cor 11:13 KJV) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
(2 Cor 11:14 KJV) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
(2 Cor 11:15 KJV) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
(Gal 1:6 KJV) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
(Gal 1:7 KJV) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
(Gal 1:8 KJV) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
(Gal 1:9 KJV) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
(Deu 13:1 KJV) If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
(Deu 13:2 KJV) And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
(Deu 13:3 KJV) Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
(Deu 13:4 KJV) Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
You, claiming that Jesus came to you, is either a delusion or occult.
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