MARIAN DEVOTION - Akathist Hymn to the Mother of God

Various ^

[dangus]

>> Also, when Jesus was told that His mother and brothers were outside Jesus asked the retorical question, "Who are My mother and brothers but these who do the will of My Father." Not the kind of response one would have expected Jesus to say about the mother of God. <<

Maybe you got what I said, but maybe I said it to briefly: That passage instructs us HOW to fulfill John 19's command to honor our Mother: By obeying those who do his will. Ask yourself, "in what way does he mean that these people are his mother and brothers?" The answer: in that we should give them the respect of being so close to Jesus.

If I tell you, "we were treated like family," does that diminish what being family means to you? Of course not! It speaks to how mice we were treated, and by using family as an ideal, it makes us associate family with kind, generous and giving... even if our own family was not. In such a way, telling us to treat those who obey him as his mother commands us to respect one another, but it also perpetuate the notion that his mother *is* due respect!

>>That's a pretty inclusive statement and includes Enoch and Elijah. <<

Yes, THAT statement includes Elijah and Enoch. My point in mentionning Elijah and Enoch is that other passages which seem equally all-inclusive ("No-one has seen the Father, but he whom the Father has sent", "All have perished," etc.) still have exceptions. IF you did not know better about Elijah and Enoch, surely you would say there are no exceptions to their cases, also. But there is ONE exception to the statement you made which we do know about: Christ has not sinned. Now, you'll say, "Well, of course not, but..." The obviousness of THAT exception is, well, obvious. But it does mean that Paul was not being ABSOLUTE in pointing out any exceptions. Less careful than Jesus, who had said "except the one whom he has sent," but still left out Jacob.

When you read the bible saying "All" or "none" ask "all who?" "none who?" In each case (Jacob, Mary, Elijah, Enoch), the author felt no need to exclude anyone whom the reader was never going to meet in the flesh.

[biblewonk]

The farther we get from scriptural terminology the less likely I am to agree with anything. I also have a very tough time with man putting things of God in terms of engineering requirements.

[dangus]

>> The Church did not give birth to Jesus in any sense.<<

No, but it will... the mission of the Church is to bring Christ into the world. The historic basis of Revelations 12 (the origin of the metaphor, so to speak) is Mary giving birth to Christ. The prophetic allusion, however, is that the Church will bear suffering, such as childbirth, in bringing Christ into the world. Please note the length of woman's time in Egypt...

[topcat54]

I would add that when Jesus calls Mary "Woman," he is using the same play on words Genesis recorded: "Eve" meaning "Woman."

However, Jesus did not use the phrase exclusively with respect to Mary. E.g.,

Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. (Matt. 15:28)

John used the same construct for Jesus' conversation with the woman at the well.

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. (John 4:21)

And the woman taken in adultery.

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? (John 8:10)

Jesus spoke to Mary no differently than He spoke to Samaritans and adulterers. Your reference proves nothing, except that Jesus liked that phrase.

[biblewonk]

Please note the length of woman's time in Egypt...

I'm missing the egypt reference unless you mean "the wilderness".

[biblewonk]

It has been a pleasure discussing this with you. Perhaps we should both pray on it. I'll look into some Scriptural references that might help.

The pleasure is all mine! Thank you too.

[topcat54]

The Ten Commandments and manna were kept in the Ark of the Covenant which was built according to God's specifications.

So was Aaron's rod that budded. I don't see your point. The ark contained a record of God's redemption of Israel. The items themselves were not holy. They only had significance insofar as they were used by God to redeem His people.

This is in a culture which washed ritually for every meal!

Which Jesus condemned as a human tradition. (Mark. 7:3ff).

This is why Gabriel called her "full of grace." She was sinless as the prospective Mother of God should be....

Only according to RC theology. It ain't in the Bible. The same word is used in Eph. 1:6 to refer to all followers of Christ.

[dangus]

>> "Born of a woman" and "Born of her flesh" are 2 very different things, the scripture never says anything about the latter. <<

Yes, he calls himself the Son of Man. If he's not Mary's son, whose son is he?

>> He does not have to be of her egg to for all of the scripture about Him to be true yet if He is of her egg the verse in question falls apart.<<

Actually, the verse says, "born of woman." Whether he is her egg or not, he is still born of Mary. The question is whether or not he is from her egg, or, to put in other words, "conceived of her." The answer to this question is plain: "You shall conceive a son." Not, "a son shall be conceived within you." No: it is SHE who conceives the Son of God!

This is what Satan could not fathom... Satan though he has won when he led Eve and Adam astray, but God had an even bigger surprise up his sleeve... Through the "neccessary fault of Adam," God gave woman and man the fantastic ability to share in his act of creation.

This grace was not lessened in Mary, but exalted further: the ultimate act of Mercy which confounds Satan: that God so redeemed our nature that through a mortal creature, the immortal creator entered the world.

Throughout Christ's crucifixion, Satan thought he was winning: Man was proving, before a just God, that he was unworthy of salvation. Imagine the shock and horror apon Satan when he heard Jesus proclaim, "it is accomplished," and breathe his last breath.

No, God was conceived of a woman, became man, suffered, was crucified, died and was buried. He was made man; his nature was fully human. He shared our genes.

[dangus]

I'm missing the egypt reference unless you mean "the wilderness".

Yes, of course... Mary fled to Egypt, the woman is described as fleeing to the desert.

[topcat54]

I seem to have forgotten the passage where he crawled inside a tax collector and went to sleep curled up in his belly.

This is an odd statement for a person who accepts the RC dogma of transubstantiation. Doesn't Jesus literally "crawl inside you" at the so-called sacrifice of the Mass? Does that not require you to be born sinless?

But RC dogma only teaches that you need to be in a "state of grace" in order to receivce the wafer. Just as Mary only needed to be in a "state of grace" when the Child was conceived in her womb, not from the time she herself was conceived.

[biblewonk]

Yes, of course... Mary fled to Egypt, the woman is described as fleeing to the desert.

I don't see that as egypt but the spiritual wilderness of the world.

[Campion]

Just as Mary only needed to be in a "state of grace" when the Child was conceived in her womb

Except that she couldn't have been (absent the Immaculate Conception), because the Sacrament of Baptism wasn't instituted yet. Children (even Jewish children) aren't born in the state of grace, because of original sin.

[dangus]

>> Your reference proves nothing, except that Jesus liked that phrase. <<

What makes it unusual is its usage. It's an odd thing to call your own mother "woman." But I'm not sure your counter-examples make your case very well. You say he used it for Samaritans and adulterers. Well, what did he say to them?

O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee as thou wilt.
Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?... Then neither shall I.

Each of these restored the grace of God.

[JohnnyM]

"You believe the new Eve is Israel and I'll believe it is Mary, the mother of Jesus. "

Eve came from Adam not vice versa. Adam was put to sleep by God and while he was asleep God formed a woman from his side. Christ was put to death (sleep) on the Cross, and as John records in the Gospel of John, out of His side came Blood and Water. It was from this that the Church is formed. The Church (the new Eve) was formed from Christ (the new Adam). Eve was the bride of Adam and the Church is the Bride of Christ. Mary is not Christ's bride.

JM

[dangus]

>> I don't see that as egypt but the spiritual wilderness of the world. <<
O for crying out loud! Quit saying about everything, "it doesn't mean that, it means this." It means both of it! It's prophecy! EVERYTHING has two meanings. (actually, four.)

The woman who bears Christ in Revelations fled into the desert. The woman who actually bore Christ fled into Egypt. You don't suppose there's a connection between Egypt and the desert, do you? Egypt is the land of spiritual wilderness, exile from the promised land. For three and a half years (a symbolic period of time, doubtlessly), the Holy City of God shall be assaulted by the forces of Satan. During this time, the Church will be in exile, forced into spiritual wilderness.

[topcat54]

Except that she couldn't have been (absent the Immaculate Conception), because the Sacrament of Baptism wasn't instituted yet. Children (even Jewish children) aren't born in the state of grace, because of original sin.

Where is the logic in this comment?

First of all, Mary was not a child when she conceived Jesus. She was, by definition, a woman since she was capable of conceiving.

Second, baptism does not infuse grace into an infant.

Third, Mary didn't need to be born in a state of gace, she simply needed to be "sanctified" at the moment of conception. That is what the angel declared. It's very simple when you eliminate the unnecessary additions.