Author Claims To Debunk Rapture Theory Popularized By 'Left Behind'

Fair enough...Anyone you're reading now whom you'd recommend? I'm always looking for a good Christian author.

If you visit my study site, you can read more about it.

No URL...can you provide same for your "study site?"

Tom Minnery's Why You Can't Stay Silent". Heard him speak at my church 1.5 years ago. A point of the book is that a single individual who is determined to make a difference is likely to be more successful than an organization. It is very applicable to my life over the last four years. Chuck Colson's book How Now Shall We Live is also very good.

Thanks! I'll check them out.

Litekeeper, I will provide you with my "study site" as soon as I think you are "Ready" to "Handle It". Your initial comments, especially the remark of how you will
"prove me all wet and wrong", indicates, That your
"spiritual maturity", is not at the desired level yet.
Understand one thing, I am not trying in any way to be
unkind here, it is your own comment that has put you in this "box". When I observe that you have a "teachable Spirit", I will probably give you my web-site, but not before. You also,have not yet answered my questions.
Please do that, and to those three questions, I would also like to add two more,so as to understand where you are
"coming from".
Question 1.) When does the "Bema" judgment seat take place, in relation to the Tribulation time period.

Question 2.) In what time period of the Tribulation, (ie.first half, or last half, of the Seven years) are
Saints going "Martyred", (according to Rev.6:9-11)

That is correct,ChevyZ28, there is a "Secret" taking away of the "Second", of the Three "Firstfruit orders" of the first resurrection, and it is around this firstfruit order, that the "Erroneous" Rapture "Fraud" has been developed.If you care to e-mail me,(my personal e-mail address is in my profile) I shall give you my study URL.
Regards, Sorensen

Seven_0, In the Mt.24, the word "taken" , is in context of
judgment , or death, hence the warning for the believing "Jews" to flee out of Jerusalem "when they see"
the setting up of the "Abomination that maketh desolate".

In Rev.14:14-20, you have two separate companies spoken of , and a distinction has to be made between them. This is why one needs to pay attention to Mt. 13:24-43, as it "sheds light", on the text in Rev.14.

The first company , is spoken of as God's people,(the reaping of "Harvest" of the Earth"), That is the same as the "wheat in Mt.13.( which "remains in the field" with the "tares" during the tribulation)
This is the actual "Resurrection" of the main "Body of the Church"(the "sixth order" of the Resurrection, just 'hours or days'before the "martyrs" are resurrected, both at the second advent.
The next group in Rev.14, is the one spoken of in verses
17-20, which deals with the Battle of armageddon, and the treading of the winepress of the WRATH of God. (It is this WRATH, and not the Tribulation, that the Church is going to "escape") and their being "left", is for the purpose of receiving God's judgment.This is the same as the "tares"
in Mt.13.
I will be happy to answer any questions
Sorensen

I would agree that there is not a singular 'gathering' of the elect, or Saints or the chosen (your choice as to how I think the Bible refers to Christ's Church).

However, this does not diminish the language which points to a gathering of a great multitude in one event.

I am interested in exploring your study on aparche or firstfruits. In particular, I would be interested in how you interpret 1Cor 15:20, as well as the other uses of this word.

I am also interested in how you determine there are seven distinct and different "orders" to the first Resurrection which I see as being complete when the fifth Seal is completed and the total host redeemed from the Earth is present in God's Court as per Rev 20:5.

Cvengr. The Idea of "Imminence" is also a "modern invention" with the "Rapture fraud". Paul told the Thessalonians, to not "be soon shaken in mind" as if the
"Day of the Lord", (a limited time period, of the pouring out of God's WRATH, at Armageddon) had already come.
Paul goes on to say, "That there must be a falling away FIRST, and the MAN of SIN, (the personal ANTI-CHRIST ) be
revealed. This, together with God' revealed "timetable"
in the Old Testament, Indicates very precisely the time lines of events, doing away with the false Imminent theory. That is why the scriptures so often encourage our
"Patience", as we are waiting,and not to "grow weary", while waiting, which you would become if Immanency was your daily practice. I am open for speaking engagements on this subject,and on "Correct" Biblical Prophecy, which sad
to say, is not Taught in our Churches today. Now before any one thinks I am being "presumptuous" allow me to give some "evidence" of what I have just declared, in a next post. I shall give an example out of the Prophet Daniel,to
contrast Biblical "correct" understanding, as opposed to
the "Old systems of thought" that have been "handed down",
and repeated by unsuspecting "Clergy"
Sorensen

Teleosis, If you and ChevyZ28 have created an "about page",
so that I can confirm your e-mail addresses, on this forum, you can email me , and after "confirmation" that you are you, I shall be happy to give you the URL to my website

You said:

In Rev.14:14-20, you have two separate companies spoken of , and a distinction has to be made between them. This is why one needs to pay attention to Mt. 13:24-43, as it "sheds light", on the text in Rev.14.

I agree that Isaiah says the Root of Jesse, (Jesus) will gather the exiles of Israel (remembering we Gentiles are grafted into the tree of Israel) in Isaiah 11:12.

ISA 11:12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.

But Jesus also said He (the Son of Man) would send his angels out to gather the elect from the four winds in Matthew 24:31.

^MT24:31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Now how can this be? Is it one or the other?

Revelation 14:14-20 shows that Scripture is cannot be broken as Jesus Himself said. The Son of Man indeed initiates the Harvest, and then He commands His angels to complete the task.

First of all, the verb tense at Revelation 14:16 is not in the past tense as translated in our English versions. When you read and the earth was harvested as I have here in the NIV, the was is added to the text to aid in translation. harvested is in the aorist tense which means it is a summary occurrence, passive voice and indicative mood which may have the action occurring in the future, past or present. So we should not read the Jesus finishes the Harvest in verse 14:16. I think you have to look at the grapes in the second part as being the same grapes in the first, they are both to be gathered, not burnt from the text in Rev 14. This would qualify them both as being "wheat" from Jesus' parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13.

The question of the winepress in Revelation 14:19 is interesting. If Paul is correct that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, and this gathering is largely of souls, then what does God do with the bodies of the believers that still alive and are left that are gathered up?

I am more interested in having a dialogue on your interpretation. Could you please respond here so we could both learn from each other and others learn from us?

You wrote:

"That there must be a falling away FIRST, and the MAN of SIN, (the personal ANTI-CHRIST ) be revealed. This, together with God' revealed "timetable" in the Old Testament, Indicates very precisely the time lines of events, doing away with the false Imminent theory. That is why the scriptures so often encourage our "Patience", as we are waiting,and not to "grow weary", while waiting, which you would become if Immanency was your daily practice.

To which I say I am in total agreement.

(emphasis added)

I have created an 'about page.'

"Seven_0, In the Mt.24, the word "taken" , is in context of judgment , or death, hence the warning for the believing "Jews" to flee out of Jerusalem "when they see" the setting up of the "Abomination that maketh desolate".

Simple question, does Noah repersent the one taken or the one left behind?

For what it's worth - I am a retired Army Chaplain, currently working on a doctorate in religious studies, and teaching classes for adults, college (US Air Force Academy, formerly West Point), and high school (homeschool enrichment classes in a Biblical Worldview). I was ordained in 1979 - and have taught and preached all over the world. Your concerns about my "spiritual maturity" are unfounded.

What concerns me is an apparent attitude of spiritual elitism. Your comments that you will provide access to your web site when you think I am ready to handle it is ludicrous.

As far as I am concerned, if you are unwilling to enter into dialogue with someone else in ministry, just forget it.

Now, to explain the False and Erroneous Prophecy teachings,
here in the U.S., "dominated" by self proclaimed "Prophecy Guru's", Like, Hal Lindsey, Tim La Hay, Jack Van Impe,
Dave Reagan, John Ankerberg, Breese, Church, Dave Hunt,the young "upstart" and "alarmist", Perry Stone, as well as the "controlled clique" of "Prophecy Conferences", that dare not "allow" me to be on their program, for Fear of being "exposed", for their false teachings.

Let us look at one of their "popular" teachings on the book of Daniel, Particularly,Chapter Two,and Chapter Seven.
The emphatically claim that these two different accounts, deal with the same Biblical event,The Babylonian Empire.

I shall try to be brief, as I expect those of you who are interested in this subject, have some prior knowledge of it.
Dan. chapter two, deals with the Image,in Nebuchadnezzar's dream, that was made up of Gold-head, Silver-chest,Bronze-
Loins, and legs of Iron.( for this analysis, I shall not discuss the feet)
We all know , that this passage refers to the four Empires, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.
But as we start study-ing Chapter Seven,here is where we
encounter the "subtly applied" Guru premise. They all declare unanimously, that this is THE SAME events as Chapter two,"from God's perspective"

The problem we have today, is that "History" is so poorly taught, not only in our schools, but in our "spiritual cemeteries" called "Seminaries"

If we consider the words of Chapter seven, Daniel declares, "in the FIRST YEAR of Belshazzar".
Who was Belshazzar? Well, these Guru's are telling the Christian populace, that he was the "Grandson" of King
Nebuchadnezzar.
Truth is, He was the GREAT Grandson, of Nebuchadnezzar!!!!

King Nebuchadnezzar, ruled Babylon for approx. 44 years.
His son Merodach,(which you can read about in the scriptures) ruled for approx.18 years. That brings us to the
62nd year, of the predicted 70 year exile to Babylon.

The Grandson of Nebuchadnezzar,was Nabonidus,he ruled for the entire last 8 years, until the destruction of Babylon, by Darius the Mede, and his son, Cyrus.

Belshazzar was the Son of Nabonidus, and was made Co-Regent, with his Dad, for the last three years of the Babylonian empire. ( That would be year 68, 69, and year 70, of the exile)
First thing to notice , is this, The words, "In the first year of Belshazzar", spoken in Dan.7, refers to year 68 of the captivity, which means, the Babylonian Empire is about over with. If we continue reading chapter 7, we find the Angel says to Daniel, about this vision of the four Beasts, that they are four Kings, that "SHALL ARISE", meaning future of the Babylonian Empire, which was on it's "last leg" so to speak. This text alone should make any Prophecy scholar, understand that this vision could NOT refer to the Babylonian Empire!!!!
Now , if we go to Rev.13, we find that the Lion, the Bear,
and the Leopard, all "make up" part of this fourth Beast, (spoken of in Dan.7) which is the "future" beast kingdom of the "Antichrist", and has noting to do with Babylon.

But of course, "we" ,have not understood the "arrogance" of the Prophecy Guru's, and theologians of our day, see , if they want to violate God's Word,(and your Intelligence) they ARE going to violate it, and wrongfully "superimpose"
this passage of Dan. 7 , "back" where it does NOT belong.
And they will continue sell their "books", and to try to keep me "out of the Pulpit" ,on their Conferences.

Do not for one moment think that I am so presumptuous , as to think, I am the "only one", who knows anything about the scriptures. I am merely pointing out Gross error and Gross deception, happening under our "noses", and nobody cares.

Well, You all pray for me, that the Truth will come out, and that "doors of Ministry" will open. I also, have a family to feed

Regards, Sorensen

The self proclaimed prophets with special knowledge which can be accessed only by secret passwords always scare me.

You wrote:

I am a retired Army Chaplain, currently working on a doctorate in religious studies, and teaching classes for adults, college (US Air Force Academy, formerly West Point), and high school (homeschool enrichment classes in a Biblical Worldview). I was ordained in 1979.

To which I say: impressive. We might even be around the same age and I am an veteran as well (USAF).

Since Sorensen does not seem interested in a dialogue here, although I don't think he's totally off track, what are your eschatological views?

I have talked at length with my Pastor, who incidentally favors a post-Trib position about my mid-Trib, or more correctly put, pre-Wrath Rapture position. He has said I have made some impressive arguments for my position. I even presented (with his concurrence) a two-part presentation to my church last year in lieu of regular services to explain the mid-Trib position.

I am interested in any views you might have on those things I have written on here in this thread as well as your own position and interpretation of Scripture.

Your opening reference to Mt.24:31, is moving away from the context of my discussion, as quoted Mt. 13:24-43 with
Rev.14.

Secondly, to answer your comment about the Greek, the answer is Yes and No,. The "Greek" you are referring to
here, does agree, I believe, with the "Byzantine", ( I am sitting in a public place on "their" computer, and have no "material" such as a Bible with me at this time, I apologize for that) However, your conclusion is incorrect.
If you will take a moment and read Mt. 13:24-43, in the KJV, you should be able to understand it.

Thirdly, you are reading the "wrong" Bible, now please bear with me for one moment. The NIV is based on two "surviving" (as in never used) Eusebio/Wescott/Hort
"Frauds",in the "Classical Greek", called "Vaticanus-B" and "Sianiticus-codex-Aleph". This is what we refer to as "corrupted text"
Let me ask you a question. Who killed Goliath ?
Please post your answer, as well as write out the passage in "your NIV" of 2Sam.212:19 . will you do that for me?