Posted on 07/01/2004 3:14:45 PM PDT by narses
Whose truth do you hold fast to? When you need specifics, to whom do you go? I don't trust the priests who are pushing this stuff. It's almost as if they are denying the power of the sacramental life and are going elsewhere themselves to boost their faltering faith.
I wish I knew one way or the other whom to follow. But I no longer do. I decided it was better for me not to take any more chances with things like this, and I may be forgoing wonderful helps, graces, and healing by so doing.
One thing is for certain. I do not plan to ever attend another healing mass for the simple reason that I do not trust those people who are doing it and it frightens me - now. I wasn't frightened by it initially until I started coming to grips with the fallout, the unexplainable things and changes for the worse that came over some of these people.
And please don't misunderstand. I'm not one who thinks protestants are evil. I do think this particular brand of protestants (the ones with the so-called powers) should be avoided like the plague. Better to be luke warm than be hot on fire with a questionable spirit.
Some days it does seem the squabbling and name calling on some FR threads is a small foreshadowing of Hell.
May God have mercy on us all.
Correct, the Final Judgment is not come yet.
The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
When you need specifics, to whom do you go?
Not sure what you mean by specifics. I do have a regular confessor and a wonderfully Orthodox Irish priest. I also have a core group of devout Catholics that I associate with. Not to mention my prayer life which include intentions, devotions and time spent with the Blessed Sacrament.
It's almost as if they are denying the power of the sacramental life and are going elsewhere themselves to boost their faltering faith.
I don’t view it that way. If someone truly has a gift they are to use it to build up the Community. Of course it could also be bogus. In either case I pray for the grace of discernment.
One thing is for certain. I do not plan to ever attend another healing mass for the simple reason that I do not trust those people who are doing it and it frightens me - now.
Fair enough. I understand where you are coming from.
I do think this particular brand of protestants (the ones with the so-called powers) should be avoided like the plague.
Agreed. I don’t plan on attending a Protestant charismatic service either.
Going to read this later.
Ah, but historically the church has seldom, if ever, recognized charisms possessed by the laity. Formal writings define charisms more as religious community endeavors and do not address specific charisms possessed by individuals, unless they were regarded as saints. No saint had this particular charism from what I've been able to find. The closest I have come across is a description of St. Teresa of Avila falling into a swoon of religious ecstasy. There is a statue in Rome (I should check that further but don't want to take the time now) commemorating that occasion.
Official church writings are silent about this particular class of charisms. Of late, many have jumped on the bandwagon, mostly promoting the fire of the spirit, but how much weight one should place in those is questionable, and some of it, I fear, is about profits from book sales. I can't find where the Vatican has ever issued any kind of guidance regarding these latter-day charisms claimed to be possessed by certain members of the laity and many of the clergy.
The early church, certainly, recognized certain charisms on the part of both ministers and laity, but the bible isn't real clear on just what those charisms consisted of. There is no common agreement of just what the gift of tongues was and was not. Just that it was. So we are left to decide for ourselves whether they were real languages, ecstatic utterings, or merely an ability to hear whatever was spoken in one's native language. The church is not providing solid guidance on any of this from on high and it is left to the bishops to oversee what is going on. Most of them have a permissive attitude towards these gatherings for their own reasons which probably vary.
If someone truly has a gift they are to use it to build up the Community. Of course it could also be bogus. In either case I pray for the grace of discernment.
We should not be left to ourselves to exercise all the discerning. That's what we are supposed to have leaders for.
Theoretically, it would be nice if we could have a free-for-all attitude toward gifts, but the church has always kept a tight lid on certain things. I never figured out, just exactly, where lay people should figure in the area of spiritual gifts and how they should be supervised.
There are a considerable number of priests who are promoting some things that have not been approved by the church. This has occurred more than once during the course of sacramental confession in the way of comments or advice. I only met one priest who was decidedly negative about it, but it didn't seem to bother him what the others were doing.
That's what I meant by to whom should one go? I seriously fear a lot of priests are going wayward with this sort of thing and it concerns me. The last priest I went to believed in Medjugorje. I have accumulated some solid facts concerning the latter, and, of course, no one wants to look at them, probably because they have been compiled by a mere convert lay woman. One did offer to look at them if I put them on his desk, but I never did because I sensed his mind was made already made up and the people were enthusiastically participating. I think the truth of that was I was afraid of openly disagreeing with him and any further discussion with him. Who was I to take on a successful priest? What if they are right and I am wrong? More correctly, I don't really know, but have serious reservations that it should be going on at all because no one really knows. They just act as if they know, but present little of substance to back it up. Furthermore, I am not well-educated in theological matters but am not going to let my ignorance of such things allow me to be bamboozled into something that may not be healthy for either myself or others.
Most of the time I do not want to visit this subject because it just causes inner frustration and reinforces my feelings of being out in the cold wandering in my own private little wilderness.
It's one of those things that will never be satisfactorily resolved for me in this world and I just have to live with the doubts it engenders, doubts which have led to other doubts about things I had formerly trusted.
It's not your problem. I shouldn't comment on this subject. The only people I have ever met who are as conflicted and disturbed by it as I am are protestants of the fundamental persuasion and a couple of catholics who don't embrace it personally, but have no objection that it is going on in their church. For my own piece of mind, I just wanted to get to the bottom of it because it has impacted my faith life and trust. There is no denying that.
I just wish Jesus or somebody like St. John would set us all straight on the matter once and for all, and that isn't going to happen. Revelation is closed. When Christ returns, it may be too late what shades of doctrine we were into.
Sorry I made this too long. It's not my charism to be succinct and incisive.
Good analysis, Petronius. Trusting any visions or visionaries, let alone those of Modernists can be a danger to one's faith. Could this be another Medjugorie in Florida? To quote a few sources:
Deuteronomy: "Thou shalt not hear the words of that prophet or dreamer. For the Lord your God trieth you, that it may appear whether you love him with all your heart, and with all your soul, or not.... And that prophet or forger of dreams shall be slain: because he spoke to draw you away from the Lord your God" (Deuteronomy 13:3,5/DRV).
St. John of the Cross (1542-1591): "The desire for private revelations deprives faith of its purity, develops a dangerous curiosity that becomes a source of illusions, fills the mind with vain fancies, and often proves the want of humility, and of submission to Our Lord, Who, through His public revelation, has given all that is needed for salvation. We must suspect those apparitions that lack dignity or proper reserve, and above all, those that are ridiculous. This last characteristic is a mark of human or diabolical machination. STAY AWAY FROM VISIONS, APPARITIONS, AND MIRACLES AS MUCH AS YOU CAN. BE CAREFUL OF VISIONS, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE AUTHENTIC.
St. Vincent Ferrer: "The first remedy against spiritual temptations which the devil plants in the hearts of many persons in these unhappy times, is to have no desire to procure by prayer, meditation, or any other good work, what are called (private) revelations, or spiritual experiences, beyond what happens in the ordinary course of things; such a desire of things which surpass the common order can have no other root or foundation but pride, presumption, a vain curiosity in what regards the things of God, and in short, an exceedingly weak faith. It is to punish this evil desire that God abandons the soul, and permits it to fall into the illusions and temptations of the devil, who seduces it, and represents to it false visions and delusive revelations. Here we have the source of most of the spiritual temptations that prevail at the present time; temptations which the spirit of evil roots in the souls of those who may be called the precursors of Antichrist."
Pope St. Pius X 1913: "When anyone tells me about the extraordinary, I am the most incredulous man in the world..., but when holiness results from the practice of virtue..., I believe in it. Just this morning ... I was saying that long ago the devil manifested himself openly in the possessed whom he caused to suffer, and from whom he could be driven out only by exorcism. Now he has changed his method; he takes the appearance of sanctity and makes people believe in visions. He even gives to certain persons the knowledge of hidden things, so that they may appear to prophesy; sometimes he even simulates stigmata! But as for holiness expressed in the simple practice of virtue..., I believe in that. That is indeed holiness.... The way to sanctity is not difficult. It is a thorny road, but easy."
Well why didn’t you just say (or not say) so? :-)
Sorry I made this too long. It's not my charism to be succinct and incisive.
I appreciate your comments and insights.
Without proper discernment as St. Paul advises this could be problematic. So do you consider Father Maniyangat a modernist?
Could this be another Medjugorie in Florida?
No
"Without proper discernment as St. Paul advises this could be problematic. So do you consider Father Maniyangat a modernist?"
"Healing Masses" can be spelled "C-H-A-R-I-S-M-A-T-I-C". My first instinct is to run away from being "slayed by the spirit."
"Could this be another Medjugorie in Florida? - No"
If he is trying to attract a congregation or start pilgrimages, again, I am suspect. I am not judging the interior of this priest, but we are told by Scripture and the saints to be wary and stay away from visionaries, as I previously quoted.
Fair enough. So do you consider Father Maniyangat a modernist? Whatever that means.
"Fair enough. So do you consider Father Maniyangat a modernist? Whatever that means."
For a definition of Modernism, see Blessed Pius IX's "Syllabus of Errors" or Pope St. Pius X's "Pascendi", then visit Fr. Maniyangat's website at the link at top and you tell me. "Eucharistic services" led by laymen? People fainting in church during Pentecostal-type healing services? Red flags go up when one hears of such events taking place.
I’m familiar with these documents and I see nothing contrary to Catholic teaching at this Parish.
"Eucharistic services" led by laymen?
Didn’t see this however under certain conditions a layman may publicly expose and later repose the eucharist for the adoration of the faithful. See "Eucharistiae Sacramentum"
People fainting in church during Pentecostal-type healing services? Red flags go up when one hears of such events taking place.
On this point we agree. As I posted earlier, worst case is I’ll have a 100 mile round trip to fulfill my Mass obligation. At best, there may be something here.
"I’m familiar with these documents and I see nothing contrary to Catholic teaching at this Parish." -[sic]
Well, look at what "Fr. Jose" does (from the website):
"Father Jose, is the Diocesan Spiritual Director of the Legion of Mary and has a charismatic healing ministry. He conducts healing missions in the parish, major cities of the United States and countries overseas."
"Charismatic healing" and Catholicism are opposed. If you read about what goes on at these events, you would say these folks are nuts! (wrigling on the floor, babbling in tongues which has been proven a hoax, holy laughter, etc).
"On April 14, 1985 Father Jose Maniyangat was involved in a motorcycle accident and had a life after death experience. Father Jose accompanied by his Guardian Angel visited Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven. During his time in heaven, Father Jose received a special message from God and the gift of healing."
Fr. Jose has been to Heaven? This would have to assume he has already been judged (particular judgement) and is therefore a saint returned from Heaven. Does this sound just a wee bit unorthodox to you? Is this not contrary to Catholic teaching?
"If Father Jose pastoral duties prohibit him from celebrating Holy Mass, the Eucharistic Ministry Service is conducted by Mr. Kenneth Cochran Sr."
Isn't his primary pastoral duty to offer Mass? When he is gone, a layman does a "Eucharistic Ministry Service" - whatever that is, but his flock is deprived of Mass.
Modernism is best described by Pope St. Pius X as "the synthesis of all heresies" [omnium heresum summa]. Here is more for a better understanding of Modernism from Pascendi:
"The partisans of errors are to be sought not only among the Church's open enemies; but, what is to be most dreaded and deplored, in her very bosom, and are the more mischievous the less they keep in the open. We allude, Venerable Brethren, to many who belong to the catholic laity, and what is much more sad, to the ranks of the priesthood itself .. thoroughly imbued with the poisonous doctrines taught by the enemies of the Church."
"They lay the ax not to the branches and shoots, but to the very root, that is, to the faith and its deepest fibers. And once having struck at this root of immortality, they proceed to diffuse poison through the whole tree so that there is no part of the Catholic truth which they leave untouched, none that they do not strive to corrupt. Further, none is more skillful, none more astute than they, in the employment of a thousand noxious devices, for they play the double part of rationalist and Catholic, and this so craftily that they easily lead the unwary into error; and as audacity is their chief characteristic, there is no conclusion of any kind from which they shrink or which they do not thrust forward with pertinacity and assurance."
Perhaps
If you read about what goes on at these events, you would say these folks are nuts! (wrigling on the floor, babbling in tongues which has been proven a hoax, holy laughter, etc).
I’ve been to a Catholic healing service before and this did not happen. You might be confusing this with some wacky Protestant deal. From what I’ve heard from my fellow Parishioners, it doesn’t happen at Father Maniyangat services either. If it does I will leave.
Isn't his primary pastoral duty to offer Mass? When he is gone, a layman does a "Eucharistic Ministry Service" - whatever that is, but his flock is deprived of Mass.
Now you’re just getting paranoid. If you would read a little closer you would also discover that Father Maniyangat also has a prison ministry. My goodness man, there are three prisons within 45 minutes of his Parish. One of them is the State prison in Raiford where we keep the hard cores. Get a grip.
I am pretty sure that Pope PaulVI wrote a Pastoral letter encouraging Catholics towards at least an understanding of these Charisms. I was pretty young at the time but I know my Dad took the Pope seriously and did look into these things. From that time on Dad lived a very saintly life and had a deep affect on all his children in that we have all sought the Lord for His mercy and grace.
I think the problems come with people who continually seek after these sorts of experiences. They tend to be flakey with their own actions but may bring you into serious account for your own. I think it tends to be personality traits that keep these people on spiritual milk.
Blessings
Mel
I arrived about 4:45 for Mass. I would estimate the Church seats about 250 people and by the time Mass started my guess would be about 225 people were in attendance. The ages ranged from young families with infants through grandparents. Ethnically it was very diverse as I saw Blacks, Whites, Asians, Hispanics and Indians (not the native American kind). The choir, if you could call it that, consisted of an older gentleman with an acoustic guitar accompanied by three women. They were actually quite good as they accompanied the Mass rather than tried to overpower it. (Pet peeve of mine of choir at my Parish.)
Since Father Maniyangat is from India and today is the Feast day of St. Thomas, his homily focused on St. Thomas bringing the good news to his native India. He said he is here today because of him. He also urged us to pray for vocations and for Priests.
At the end of his homily he mentioned his story was on the Spirit Daily website and he has been getting calls all week long. The most frequent question he was asked was does he have a book out or a website where they could learn more about his story. His answer was this is the first time his story has been told anywhere besides the Parish website and it was only a small part of his story. So what that means I’m not exactly sure.
After Mass I would estimate about 50 folks cut out so there were about 175-200 people there for Adoration. We ended Adoration by reciting the Chaplet of Divine Mercy which led into the Healing Service.
By now it was about 7PM and it was pretty much the same crowd that was there for Adoration. Father began the service by asking us to extend a hand toward the altar while he offered a prayer to God that his healing power would be present at the service. He said nothing could be accomplished without prayer. After the prayer he asked us to offer our healing intentions and then if we wished, to approach the altar to receive the healing blessing. The best way I can describe this part of the service is it reminded me of getting ashes during Ash Wednesday. But rather than getting ashes, Father Maniyangat offered a prayer of healing as he was making the sign of the cross on our foreheads with the anointing oil.
Since I was seated toward the back of the Church it was about 45 minutes before I made it to the front. During this time I witnessed about half the folks receiving the blessing passing out. As for bizarre behavior, (I realize many of you consider passing out bizarre) I saw two women shaking their hands frantically up and down. One of them, as the Priest approached her to give the blessing, did let out a wail. Both of them passed out as they received their blessing. After I received my blessing ( I didn’t pass out) I made the sign of the cross and left.
One other note. There was no collection during the service nor was there a request for donations. And I do admit, this surprised me.
So what to make of this? IMVHO I don’t believe this Priest is a charlatan. As to whether he has a gift of healing, I would suspect he does.
I wanted to share with you folks my observations of Father Maniyangat’s healing service I attended tonight. Actually the order of service is a 5PM vigil Mass, followed by an hour of Eucharistic Adoration, and then the Healing Service.
I arrived about 4:45 for Mass. I would estimate the Church seats about 250 people and by the time Mass started my guess would be about 225 people were in attendance. The ages ranged from young families with infants through grandparents. Ethnically it was very diverse as I saw Blacks, Whites, Asians, Hispanics and Indians (not the native American kind). The choir, if you could call it that, consisted of an older gentleman with an acoustic guitar accompanied by three women. They were actually quite good as they accompanied the Mass rather than tried to overpower it. (Pet peeve of mine of choir at my Parish.)
Since Father Maniyangat is from India and today is the Feast day of St. Thomas, his homily focused on St. Thomas bringing the good news to his native India. He said he is here today because of him. He also urged us to pray for vocations and for Priests.
At the end of his homily he mentioned his story was on the Spirit Daily website and he has been getting calls all week long. The most frequent question he was asked was does he have a book out or a website where they could learn more about his story. His answer was this is the first time his story has been told anywhere besides the Parish website and it was only a small part of his story. So what that means I’m not exactly sure.
After Mass I would estimate about 50 folks cut out so there were about 175-200 people there for Adoration. We ended Adoration by reciting the Chaplet of Divine Mercy which led into the Healing Service.
By now it was about 7PM and it was pretty much the same crowd that was there for Adoration. Father began the service by asking us to extend a hand toward the altar while he offered a prayer to God that his healing power would be present at the service. He said nothing could be accomplished without prayer. After the prayer he asked us to offer our healing intentions and then if we wished, to approach the altar to receive the healing blessing. The best way I can describe this part of the service is it reminded me of getting ashes during Ash Wednesday. But rather than getting ashes, Father Maniyangat offered a prayer of healing as he was making the sign of the cross on our foreheads with the anointing oil.
Since I was seated toward the back of the Church it was about 45 minutes before I made it to the front. During this time I witnessed about half the folks receiving the blessing passing out. As for bizarre behavior, (I realize many of you consider passing out bizarre) I saw two women shaking their hands frantically up and down. One of them, as the Priest approached her to give the blessing, did let out a wail. Both of them passed out as they received their blessing. After I received my blessing ( I didn’t pass out) I made the sign of the cross and left.
One other note. There was no collection during the service nor was there a request for donations. And I do admit, this surprised me.
So what to make of this? IMVHO I don’t believe this Priest is a charlatan. As to whether he has a gift of healing, I would suspect he does.
Thank you. I reposted your post as a ping so that others would see at a glance what you posted.
BTW, St. Thomas and the Indian Church have a very interesting history. For centuries they were cut off from Rome by distance, war and the like. They held to the Apostolic lineage and fidelity to Rome and there reconnection was not that long ago. Fascinating story.
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