Posted on 07/04/2004 9:29:46 AM PDT by Polycarp IV
I think the scenario you describe and the moral pluses and minuses of the 3 reactions you describe puts the situation into a nutshell. The problem occurs, as Polycarp and Fr. Harrison agree, when there is no cancer, no chemotherapy, or no equivalently grave situation, and NFP becomes a lifestyle choice.
No, this is wrong, and Fr. Harrison never makes any such claim. He merely denies the counter claim that it is a heresy to approve of NFP. He never says that it is a heresy to claim that NFP is sinful.
First of all, NFP has never been defined as Church doctrine. As Fr. Harrison correctly states in his article, Pope Pius XI used language that seemed to invoke the power of infallibility in "Casti Connubii" when he stated that any action which frustrates the marriage act in its natural power and purpose is gravely sinful. Some claim that this can be applied to NFP, at least in some circumstances. It would certainly not be a heresy to say so.
On the other hand, Pope Pius XII approved of NFP in "Allocution to the Italian Midwives." But it would fall far short of heresy to claim that he was mistaken. Fr. Harrison tries to create a claim of long-standing tradition for his position by citing the pronouncements of the Sacred Penitentiary. This claim may or may not stand up to closer scrutiny. But we are certainly a long way from moral unanimity.
No, this is wrong in an important and fundamental way. The "marriage right" is indeed a right and not a "privilege." The marriage right is "continuous, permanent and uninterrupted." To counsel Catholic couples in a way that tells them something different is to mislead them about a crucial element of the marriage contract.
Here is what Pope Pius XII said in Allocution to Italian Midwives:
If, one of the parties contracted marriage with the intention of limiting the matrimonial right itself to the periods of sterility, and not only its use, in such a manner that during the other days the other party would not even have the right to ask for the debt, than this would imply an essential defect in the marriage consent, which would result in the marriage being invalid, because the right deriving from the marriage contract is a permanent, uninterrupted and continuous right of husband and wife with respect to each other.
This is not true. The need for "grave circumstances" has been reiterated many times. Here is Pope Pius XII in Allocution to Italian Midwives:
The individual and society, the people and the State, the Church itself, depend for their existence, in the order established by God, on fruitful marriages. Therefore, to embrace the matrimonial state, to use continually the faculty proper to such a state and lawful only therein, and, at the same time, to avoid its primary duty without a grave reason, would be a sin against the very nature of married life.
And ironic also, since post #11 consists of an article written by a sedevacantist priest supporting NFP.
I hope I didn't appear to be merely trying to "score points." This is a really important issue which is being misrepresented by nearly all promoters of NFP. The EWTN website, as one example, tells married people that they can practice NFP unilaterally and their spouse just has to "get over it." You may have noticed that this was contradicted even by the moral theology manual posted by GBCDOJ earlier in this thread. I once had an opportunity to confront the director of the Couple-to-Couple League regarding the fact that he was misrepresenting the truth on this topic. He didn't agree with me, but then again, he is now divorced.
Each couple that enters into a Catholic marriage enters a contract and a state of life that consists of certain fundamental realities. To misunderstand the nature of such fundamental realities is likely to be fatal.
We are dealing with a very complex subject because it essentialy deals with “pastoral care” but if we look at Catholic principle's the answers are there.
First I would like to ask little little jeremiah;OrthodoxPresbyterian what religion they are. I assume the former is a protestant conservative while the latter is a strict Presbyterian. I find your views very refreshing given that most of the Protestants I know are for artificial contraception. It seems you are both against artificial contraception- correct me if I am wrong.
First all of the pre Vatican II popes always promoted BIG families. Pius XII obviously said NFP was OK under certain circumstances. The Rhythm method has always been around for years and was always licit under certain strict conditions. The Billings Ovulation Method since about 1957 or thereabouts.
Even Pope JP II years ago in the early 80's I think criticize those couples who practice NFP in a self centered to only have a few children.
The problem today is that there is so much emphasis on so called “responsible parenthood” by the liberal Catholics that big families are discouraged. We all have been brainwashed to thinking that we have to provide for our children every material comfort including a college education so therefore we can only have 3 children at the most. This is one reason why we have so few religious vocations because if you only have one or two children you want grandchildren so you discourage a religious vocation.
Around 307 Lactantius explained that some "complain of the scantiness of their means, and allege that they have not enough for bringing up more children, as though, in truth, their means were in [their] power . . . or God did not daily make the rich poor and the poor rich. Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife" (Divine Institutes 6:20).
So we see that even this early Christian Father is saying that in extreme poverty you could abstain. First however he says that people use this as an excuse and that God will provide. Look at Latin America- there is extreme poverty yet most people have at least 5 children and many have 8 or 9.
G. K. Chesterton was not against periodic abstinence and said that the modern birth control (at his time they had condemns, withdrawal, abortion and sterilization) means NO BIRTH and NO CONTROL which Catholics are against. So he said the Church wasn’t against Birth Control but against the way it was being practiced i.e. have sex but thwarting reproduction.
However, there is another good and long standing Catholic method which is to not use any regulation at all i.e. period abstinence in a controlled way to space out children and simply rely on the providence of God. The problem today with this is that people who use this acceptable and good form of having children are put down- Oh can’t you control yourself, why don’t you use NFP if you don’t like the pill or other unnatural methods or don’t you already have enough children. This is wrong.
Some people use NFP to only have say two or three kids because they claim they are emotionally unable to have more children yet they do not have mental illness and are perfectly happy. They just want to have all of the material comforts, be in control of everything, have two vacations every year and not want to change diapers in their 40's or deal with putting kids through College in there 60's. I am not here to judge anyone- only God can do that and we should really not assume just because a good Catholic only has two children that they were practicing contraception or NFP or another couple that has 5 children never sterilized themselves or practiced artificial contraception. As Catholics if we personally know of an individual who is thinking of sterilizing themselves we should talk with them and discourage them from doing it because it is a mortal sin. Every Catholic should be open to life and not say well I will not ever have another child when I could because God should be the giver and taker of life. The Catholic population is not reproducing as it should because a very high percentage of people are contracepting to limit their family for self centered reasons and this is wrong and against scripture- “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth”. The Muslims will overtake us in terms of population and we will contracept ourselves out of existence or abstain ourselves out of existence. The number of children that a couple has is between them and God provided that they are generous with their fertility as God has naturally given it to them, that they use licit means in child spacing(breast feeding is a natural means and the best food for the child- our Lord was fed by this means as a baby) and that they do not cut themselves off from generating new life because they distrust God’s providence due to fear of having too many children.
Only a wacked out sede would claim the last 80 years worth of Popes are in apostacy on NFP.
I thought you were a knowledgeable person, I guess I had you confused with someone else.
Great! We can mutually ignore each other then?
Max, my point was that one must believe many Popes, even pre VII Popes, were apostate or the Chair is empty, to believe that NFP is intrinsically morally illicit.
"sedevacantist" is a new word, and I can't find it on the Miriam-Webster online. Could you define it?
I don't think it's quite that drastic. You know that I have been arguing the same position the entire time I have been on FR -- that NFP is licit in certain circumstances, and that Catholic teaching sources need to do a better job explaining that. I think we agree on that score.
However, I was recently sent a booklet written by someone who believes that NFP is inherently immoral. He is not a sedevacantist, nor does he believe that the popes were apostates or heretics. His argument is that the magisterial teaching on this issue is thin and inconsistent. As Fr. Harrison points out in his article, one could reasonably take the position that Popes Pius XI and Pius XII contradicted each other. This may not be the case, but one needn't be a sedevacantist to believe it.
The author of the booklet takes the position that this issue is far from settled, and that when it is settled the Church will recognize that each and every conjugal act must share in some intention of fruitfulness. Everyone recognizes that not every conjugal act can be fruitful, but every act can share in the general intention of fruitfulness which covers all the actions. A couple who intends to be fruitful on the day they marry and never change that intention thereby guarantee that every individual act participates in a continuous intention of fruitfulness even if individual acts are clearly not going to be fruitful on their own (e.g. during pregnancy).
But what happens when you break that continuous intention of fruitfulness? What happens when you decide that you do not want to accept children from God, now or for the foreseeable future? Then the individual conjugal acts no longer share in a general intention of fruitfulness. So you are having sex but you have no intention to fulfill its purpose.
According to this view, for NFP to be licit, the couple would have to decide the first week of the month that they have no intention of fruitfulness, so they abstain that week, but then the next week they decide that they do have an intention of fruitfulness during the week that they know that they are infertile, then the next week they change their intention again based on thermometer readings, etc., so that they always have an intention of fruitfulness whenever they know it cannot be accomplished and they never have an intention of fruitfulness whenever they know that it could be accomplished.
Well, anyway, this is the writer's argument, and he is not a sedevacantist. He merely claims that the only authoritative statement approving NFP was Pope Pius XII's "Allocution to Italian Midwives," and that the pope got a lot of the issues right in that document, but that he failed to address all the relevant moral considerations.
Thus they claim that we have no pope and that therefore the Holy See is vacant, i.e., sedes (seat) - vacante (vacant), which is why such people are referred to as "sedevacantists".
I disagree with that author then. The issue IS settled. The moral theology foundations of these principles regarding licit use of NFP, on which you and I are 100% in agreement, are solid.
All that remains is proper catechesis.
Nevermind, found it - googled. Sorry and thanks, anyway.
Wonderful comments. You ask what religion I am; you may be surprised to know that I am a practicing conservative Hindu, not a cradle one, but converted more than 35 years ago.
I have had many discussions with Polycarp, and I find that traditional Catholics are very close in moral absolutes to what the Vedic scriptures teach; and I have the highest regard for sincere Catholics. Indeed, I feel a close kinship with them, and consider them a needed bulwark against the dark tide of atheism and phony or insincere religionists that is about to engulf the world.
I agree 100%, that many people have few children because more would cut into their material consumption and enjoyment, and that large families are frowned upon. The falsehood of "population explosion" has fostered hatred for children and families as well as the science of contraception and abortion.
The killing of babies and the forced prevention of birth are great crimes that are undermining the very humanity of society. Sex without the spark of life - the soul - and lifetime commitment between husbands and wives is turning society into a wasteland of self centered animals. Peoples' hearts are becoming broken, and only God can heal them.
Yeah, I'm a lay member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. If you're perhaps familiar with the writings of Francis Schaeffer, it may give some context to know that OPC founder Dr. J. Gresham Machen was Schaeffer's personal mentor.
The official position of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church on matters of Contraception may be found HERE -- scroll down past the discussion of Divorce and Remarriage (permissible in cases of Adultery only, etc.) to the second Item on the page: "I am considering joining a local OPC. One of the questions I have had for awhile is what does the bible say about birth control? What does OPC believe?".
The crux of the OPC position is stated as follows:
As you can see, the Orthodox Presbyterian argument against contraception is founded pretty much exclusively on the (protestant) Sixth Commandment**, "You Shall Not Murder", as applied to the Conceived Embryo. Thus, any form of Chemical Contraception is necessarily forbidden (IUD's are singled out for particular condemnation, but the same logic applies to all chemical contraceptives), as all forms of chemical contraception have the effect of rendering the womb a chemically-poisonous environment to any Embryo which might be Conceived.
However, because the OPC position is founded pretty exclusively on the Sixth Commandment alone, so-called "Barrier Methods" which prevent Conception (well, inconsistently, anyway) but which do not chemically endanger the Life of the Embryo if conceived, are not explicitly condemned by the official OPC position. (Albeit, the author of the OPC position paper represents our denomination well when he stipulates "That doesn’t mean that there is no concern over the issue"; there is just no explicit ruling at this time either formally endorsing or forbidding "Barrier Methods", in the manner that Chemical Contraceptives are explicitly forbidden).
Reference is made to the "Sin of Onan" in the OPC position summary, but the "Sin of Onan" is interpreted by the OPC as being endorsement of the Contraceptive Mentality (i.e., opposition to childbearing per se for whatever selfish reasons), and not interpreted to apply to specific methodologies of Pregnancy Timing (as opposed to the Sinful Attitude of determined Childbearing Refusal).
Thus, the OPC position summary on "Birth Control" may be summarized as follows (OP summarizes the OP summary):
Obviously, I recognize that the OPC position is thus distinct from the Roman Catholic position -- in that while both condemn the Contraceptive Mentality as a Sinful Attitude, Abortion as a Sinful Act, and Chemical Contraception as a Sinful Act, the OPC does not formally condemn either NFP or "Barrier Methods" at this time since neither expressly violate the Sixth Commandment, whereas in Roman Catholicism "Barrier Methods" are condemned and only NFP is permitted. For the purposes of this Post, however, I am not arguing whether the OPC "Sixth Commandment" derivation or the Roman Catholic "Theology of the Body" derivation is the more correct; I am simply answering your question as best I am able, outlining the areas of agreement and difference.
Best, OP
**NOTE ~~ Protestant "Sixth Commandment" = Roman Catholic "Fifth Commandment"
No, this is wrong in an important and fundamental way. The "marriage right" is indeed a right and not a "privilege." The marriage right is "continuous, permanent and uninterrupted." To counsel Catholic couples in a way that tells them something different is to mislead them about a crucial element of the marriage contract. ~~ Maximilian
I'd have to email Joel Miller of RAZORMOUTH.COM for the specifics, but...
Amongst my own spiritual forebears, the American Puritans, there is at least one documented Canon Law case of a Puritan Husband being placed under Church Discipline (to the point of threatened denial of participation in the Supper!) on account of obdurate refusal to grant his Puritan Wife reasonable and regular enjoyment of her Marital Rights.
Miller wrote a joyous and delightfully-raucous Editorial on the subject back in the early days of RazorMouth entitled "The Joy of Puritan Sex", which sadly can no longer be found on GOOGLE (last I checked). Suffice it to say that the Puritans have an ill-deserved reputation as killjoys: the first permanent structure they built on the North American continent was a brewery, and their attitude towards Sex within the Bond of Marriage was apparently founded on the maxim, "Wild jack-rabbits are a perfectly good Model provided in Nature. Go thou and do likewise."
I'm sure everyone gets a "headache" now and then, but it does seem to me that the "Marital Privilege" is indeed a Right -- especially, a Right which you freely delegate to the needs of your spouse. If she has need of your attentions, and you've got a "headache" yet again tonight...
Well, buck up and quit whining. Onward, Christian Soldier.... we'd hate to have to place you under Puritan Church Discipline.
I admit I'm having a little fun with the subject, but I think that gives my sense of things in the "Right vs. Privilege" argument.
Best, OP
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