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CATHOLICS AND BAPTISTS WITNESSED UNUSUAL IMAGES IN BLESSED SACRAMENT
Spirit Daily ^ | July 14, 2004

Posted on 07/14/2004 6:12:39 AM PDT by NYer

On two separate occasions Catholics on retreat at a parish in Jacksonville, Florida, have reported remarkable images in and around exposition of the large Host known as the Blessed Sacrament.

The events were recorded at St. Joseph's Church in the Mandarin area of the city and join a growing number of reports  concerning Eucharistic phenomena from around the world -- as if to remind that world of the True Presence.

A few days ago we reported the spiritual benefits of adoration in front of the Host and quoted a woman who claimed to see a radiant mist in connection with it. The phenomena often go beyond that, to reports of details visual effects witnessed -- as in the case of Jacksonville -- by dozens of people.

The events began on November 6, 1999, and were also witnessed by priests, including Father Bernard Ahern, a retired Navy chaplain who recounted that in the midst of the retreat -- the middle of Saturday afternoon -- a woman came into the room "hysterically" crying that she had seen Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, which was exposed during the retreat.

"I then went into the chapel myself to find out what was happening, and I, also, saw the Face of Jesus in the Eucharist," the priest told two chroniclers of the events, who produced a booklet on the occurrences. "The color of the image was a sepia color, a light brown and white. There were many other people who also saw Him. I was skeptical and thought that there might be some shadows in the back of the monstrance, or light in front of it causing the image. But I found no basis for this after checking the surrounding area, and realized I saw what I saw."

The admission of witnessing such an event by a priest is a rare event at a time when clergy are often more skeptical than even secular authorities and at a time when seminaries have all but extinguished training in mystical theology. Actually the events were first initiated when a woman named Cathy Duncan -- like Father Ahern wondering at first if it was just shadows from the sun or candlelight -- saw the Face of Christ earlier in the day and had it confirmed around dinnertime when she ran into the woman referred to by Father Ahern, who was in the chapel and blurted out, "Do you see Him?" -- referring to the remarkable image.

Duncan noted that by now the sun had gone down and the candles had been burning all day, changing their angles.

It wasn't the candles.

Later in the day the Host turned a very bright red that appeared to be glowing -- according to witnesses. There were about 35 retreat participants in the first event along with thirty or so retreat givers and women who had attended previous retreats. About a third presented formal testimony. So dramatic was this event that it made a secular newspaper, The Florida Times-Union, which noted that "most of those interviewed recounted seeing Jesus' Head and Shoulders, though the level of detail varied." Some said they saw features -- ears, eyes, mouth; others glimpsed a vaguer silhouette.

"I looked at the Host and noticed the color was not the usual color of off-white but was light pink in the center, which became darker and darker until it reached the rim where it was deep red," said yet another observer, Trish Kessler, describing a resemblance to the Shroud of Turin. "I felt like I was walking in the Holy of Holies."

"I was in shock, and yet so happy," added Cherrie Martinez. "I saw with my own eyes the silhouette of the Sacred Heart. It was like a pencil drawing of His hair, head, and shoulders. This shows how powerful prayers are!"

It also indicated the reality of the True Presence -- long a point of contention between Catholics and Protestants. Similar events have been logged from Canada to Venezuela and Australia.

In Jacksonville, even former Baptists -- often loathe to report such manifestations -- were witnesses.

One, Chrys Sills, also observed what she described in the monstrance as an apparition of the Turin Shroud.

Others reported the Host glowing brightly despite the dark room and some said the Host appeared gold. "I stood in front of the monstrance and saw Jesus' Face as an outline in silhouette," reported Helen Targonski, a woman who had recently lost a husband to cancer. "I saw the top of His Head with a crown of thorns and His Face faintly but His eyes were more predominant, looking straight out. His eyes looked real and were radiating with tremendous love. Everywhere I looked, I saw other members kneeling and crying or lying prostrate."

The message: God is with us even in our most trying moments.

It was spiritual bedlam and it repeated itself at the same church four years later, during a men's retreat from October 18 to 19, 2003.

In a series of events that some like to compare to an historical occurrence in Bordeaux, France [left, a witness], the men reported similar images -- pencil-like etchings -- on a cloth placed behind the Blessed Sacrament as a white backdrop.

"These pencil drawings began to develop into very distinct and clear images," noted one newsletter from Journey to Our Father Ministries. "Some people saw them in black and white, while others saw them in various shades of gold. Witnesses first saw an image of a lamb, which was over the shoulders of Jesus. Many people saw Jesus' Image as a side view looking right and down, while others saw Him in a frontal view. One person came nearer and said, 'Do you also see the baby Jesus?' You could see the baby Jesus, then a dove, and then Mary, and also God the Father. All these different images were visible within the overall image. The detail was so great that you could actually see the individual hairs on God the Father's Head."

While in both cases many of the images were sketched, at least one person saw an entire image in color.

Once again, the Host was "glowing." During the Rosary, a picture of Mary reportedly moved.

The theme of the retreat was "Open the eyes of my heart."

On the way home, as one couple boarded their car, on the radio was the song, "Open the eyes of my heart Lord, I want to see You"!

Each person felt as if he or she had a personal experience -- often seeing something uniquely his or her own. "This was a day that would forever change my life," said one of the former Baptists. "Not because I saw what I already knew was there, but to know that He is with us every minute that we take time to spend with Him."

[resources: Jesus Unveils His True Presence Within the Holy Eucharist, by Jim and Barbara Wasel, adoregod@ids.net]

[see also Secrets of the Eucharist]


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Prayer; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholiclist
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1 posted on 07/14/2004 6:12:40 AM PDT by NYer
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To: *Catholic_list; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp IV; narses; ...

An 'ecumenical' story to begin your day.


2 posted on 07/14/2004 6:15:49 AM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: NYer

As Adoration takes hold across the country, I think we'll be reading more stories like this. In our parish we have Adoration once a week. Our pastor says he has seen the faith of parishoners grow exponentially as a result. He's thinking of adding a second day.


3 posted on 07/14/2004 6:26:39 AM PDT by old and tired
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To: NYer

Wow. Truly amazing.


4 posted on 07/14/2004 6:51:49 AM PDT by Desdemona (Out of town July 15-August 3. Away from computers.)
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To: NYer

We have "perpetual" adoration at our Parish. I signed up for a designated hour about a year ago. I have had remarkable experiences in our chapel, especially while alone with Jesus. On one occassion, while staring at the large portrait of the DIVINE MERCY in our chapel, a white cloud began to envelop the room but the image of Jesus was shining through. It was a surreal yet peaceful experience. I've had many experiences in our chapel like this.

If anyone wants to take their relationship with Jesus to another level I highly recommend Eucharistic Adoration. It will begin to change your life in ways you never suspected. It will also become a part of your life you will never let go of.

If anyone would like to know more about this devotion and how it can change your life, please freepmail me and I will go into greater personal detail.


5 posted on 07/14/2004 8:19:11 AM PDT by Prolifeconservative (If there is another terrorist attack, the womb is a very unsafe place to hide.)
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To: Prolifeconservative

Thank you! for posting your comments. Here is an excellent resource on the history of Eucharistic Adoration.

REAL PRESENCE

6 posted on 07/14/2004 10:01:21 AM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: NYer

Has the Vatican authenticated this event?
I do not believe that Catholics can accept this as a "miracle " from God until the pope weighs in .


Seems to me , that different people saw different things, this sounds like a group hysteria .

Have you ever looked at a cloud that looked like something ?

This does prove the effect of group hysteria IMO


7 posted on 07/14/2004 10:07:53 AM PDT by RnMomof7 (Stubborn is worse than stupid.)
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To: RnMomof7
Has the Vatican authenticated this event?

Why should they? No one is proclaiming a miracle.

8 posted on 07/14/2004 10:18:27 AM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: RnMomof7; NYer
Has the Vatican authenticated this event?

No and I doubt it ever will.

I do not believe that Catholics can accept this as a "miracle " from God until the pope weighs in .

Perhaps. This is my Parish and I have spoken to a number of people who were there. They are convinced what they saw was a eucharistic miracle. Whether Rome weighs in or not doesn't matter to them. Also Father Bernie hasn't made a big deal about this. This story is about five years old, I don't know why it's being resurfaced now.

Seems to me , that different people saw different things, this sounds like a group hysteria .

Well it was a woman's retreat group that was in the chapel when this happened :-)

Have you ever looked at a cloud that looked like something ?

The host is not the size of a cloud but I see your point.

9 posted on 07/14/2004 10:33:16 AM PDT by pegleg
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To: RnMomof7

Haven't you ever had a revelation while praying? Our Lord speaks to us in the Blessed Sacrament. As Adoration once again becomes popular, I am confident stories like this one will become commonplace.


10 posted on 07/14/2004 10:34:07 AM PDT by old and tired
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To: Prolifeconservative
Beautiful! I also highly recommend spending an hour with Our Lord.

p.s. I also find little ones can sense the awesomeness of the moment and are usually on their best behavior. Or sleeping.

11 posted on 07/14/2004 10:36:48 AM PDT by old and tired
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To: NYer

I heard about this after it originally happened. The Pastor of my parish, Fr. Leon, told our Carmelite group about it. The two priests involved had contacted him after it happened and he had asked them why they hadn't notified the Bishop during the almost hour that it was observed. He told us that the priest felt rather foolish for not calling the Bishop immediately. This happened in the chapel of what was the older Church built before there new Church was built. They are still maintaining the older Church since it is part of the grounds where they have a school. Even though this is pretty close to where I live I have never visited their previous Chapel. While I found the story interesting and relying on my pastor's opinion to be credible, I don't worry about following signs. That Jesus is in the Eucharist is already something I firmly believe and I would prefer to rely on the eyes of faith.

Fr. Leon also told us that one of the people there that he talked to was upset that his wife who is a convert saw it and that he as a cradle Catholic did not. I would hope that I myself would not react that way. That hopefully I would rejoice in a visible sign given my wife and to rejoice that perhaps God thought that my faith was strong enough with out it.


12 posted on 07/14/2004 10:39:53 AM PDT by Atheist2Theist (http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/)
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To: pegleg
This is my Parish and I have spoken to a number of people who were there.

Wow! Has the experience caused them to be better Catholics? I'm asking not so much for your personal observations (though I certainly wouldn't avert my eyes), but rather their public Christian witness since this day.

13 posted on 07/14/2004 10:40:32 AM PDT by old and tired
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To: NYer
It was spiritual bedlam and it repeated itself at the same church four years later, during a men's retreat from October 18 to 19, 2003.

Now wait a minute. I was at the Mens CRHP retreat that weekend at St. Joseph’s and this is news to me. It’s interesting they don’t name a source for this part of the story but I suspect I know who it was.

We were having adoration in the Chapel on Saturday evening and ONE of the guys said he saw the face of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. I was with the majority of the guys and attributed whatever he was seeing to lighting and shadows. I was dark and the only light in the Chapel was from the flickering candles.

14 posted on 07/14/2004 10:52:56 AM PDT by pegleg
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To: old and tired
Wow! Has the experience caused them to be better Catholics? I'm asking not so much for your personal observations (though I certainly wouldn't avert my eyes), but rather their public Christian witness since this day.

My observation is the women who were on that retreat for the most part are very active in various Parish Ministries. And Father Bernie is a treat. This guy just celebrated his 50th year as a priest. He is about 75 years old and his 99 year old mother lives with him. He's always bringing her to various Parish functions. Also, when he offers Mass, his Mother sits in the front pew and he brings Communion to her. She doesn’t quite get around like she used to:-)

15 posted on 07/14/2004 11:00:53 AM PDT by pegleg
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To: old and tired

I have no desire to argue this out to a conclusion.

We know that there are many miracles that the vatican refuses to affirm. Without that confirmation it is strictly rumor, or the work of a charlatan .

I adore God, not a piece of bread, I trust Jesus to save me, not a piece of bread .

God illuminates through His word. To that end I would like to suggest that you read the account of the staff of Moses.


That staff which God used as a visible instrument became sin when there was more emphasis on the rod than on the one that ordained it.

2Ki 18:4
He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

2Ki 18:5
He trusted in the LORD God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor [any] that were before him.


16 posted on 07/14/2004 11:07:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7 (Stubborn is worse than stupid.)
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To: Atheist2Theist
I heard about this after it originally happened. The Pastor of my parish, Fr. Leon, told our Carmelite group about it.

I love Immaculate Conception. Father Leon is a little difficult to understand in the confessional though. I find myself straining to understand him. Father Keen is wonderful also.

This happened in the chapel of what was the older Church built before there new Church was built.

Actually it happened in the School Chapel

They are still maintaining the older Church since it is part of the grounds where they have a school.

We’ll always have the “Historic Church”. It’s considered a historical landmark and we still use it for Weddings.

Even though this is pretty close to where I live I have never visited their previous Chapel.

You should visit us sometime. All three of the Priests we have are wonderful.

17 posted on 07/14/2004 11:08:30 AM PDT by pegleg
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To: Atheist2Theist
The Pastor of my parish, Fr. Leon

Would this be Fr. Bartholomew Leon?

18 posted on 07/14/2004 11:11:50 AM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: RnMomof7
I adore God, not a piece of bread, I trust Jesus to save me, not a piece of bread .

A consecrated host is NOT a piece of bread and you especially, as a former catholic, know better than to post that comment.

That staff which God used as a visible instrument became sin when there was more emphasis on the rod than on the one that ordained it.

During the 13th century St. Anthony of Padua was reported to have converted a hardened heretic through a rather unique contest. The heretic, by the name of Bononillo, was unmoved by the reasoning of the "hammer of heretics," as St. Anthony was called. Bononillo was as stubborn as the mule that stood beside him.

Eyeing the mule, Anthony made an offer to Bononillo. He asked him whether he would give up his heresy if the mule were to bow down and adore its Creator present in the Blessed Sacrament. The heretic answered he would, provided he could lay down certain conditions: for two days the mule was not to be fed, and on the third day it was to be led into the public square. On one side of the square would be placed a tempting pile of fresh feed, on the opposite side Anthony could stand with what Bononillo contemptuously called the "body of Christ." Anthony agreed, but in all humility made one condition. If the animal did not kneel before the Blessed Sacrament, his sins alone were to be blamed.

The day arrived for this strange contest and the square was crowded with people. When the derisive Bononillo arrived with his half-starved mule, he was fully confident that his mule had sense and appetite enough to go after the feed. But he was wrong. Anthony had implored his Lord in the intervening two days for the soul of this heretic. God did not let his faithful servant down. When turned loose, the mule without the least hesitation advanced towards Anthony and knelt in an attitude of adoration before the Blessed Sacrament. With much emotion and contrition the heretic too fell on his knees and gave up his heresy. Of course the greatest miracle of all, transubstantiation, has to be viewed with the eyes of faith.

19 posted on 07/14/2004 11:18:18 AM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: Atheist2Theist
Hey, I've visited your "The Curt Jester' blog before. You posted this picture of Mary’s Fiat.

I thought it was very clever. Not to mention funny.

20 posted on 07/14/2004 11:33:57 AM PDT by pegleg
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To: NYer; RnMomof7

Rnmom: I adore God, not a piece of bread, I trust Jesus to save me, not a piece of bread .

NYer: A consecrated host is NOT a piece of bread and you especially, as a former catholic, know better than to post that comment.
===

NYer, is it now inappropriate for Protestants, who were former Catholics, to state their beliefs in the Religion Forum?

I absolutely agree with Rnmom's statement. Do I get a subtle lecture too?


21 posted on 07/14/2004 11:39:44 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej; NYer; RnMomof7
I absolutely agree with Rnmom's statement. Do I get a subtle lecture too?

It is well established Protestant’s don’t believe in the Real Presence. It is also well established that neither Catholic nor Orthodox Christians believe a consecrated host is a piece of bread.

What else can we say except we agree to disagree?

22 posted on 07/14/2004 11:49:35 AM PDT by pegleg
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To: pegleg; NYer

Disagreement is fine. Telling someone they should know better than to post their beliefs is what I reacted to.


23 posted on 07/14/2004 11:52:25 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: old and tired

"p.s. I also find little ones can sense the awesomeness of the moment and are usually on their best behavior. Or sleeping."

Yes!

About 6 months ago, my son (daddy's boy - 7 yrs old) asked to come with me and I was thrilled. He prayed for 20 seconds on a kneeler, then played quietly with a little toy he brought along. About 30 minutes in I could tell he was getting bored, he would look up at me and sigh noticeably as if to say "how much longer." But he stuck it out and did so on his best behaviour. He might have been bored and disengaged, but he was a good trooper.

The most interesting thing is when we climbed into our truck to leave, I broke the silence and simply asked him, "well, how did you like that?" I was ready for him to start complaining......but his response, I kid you not...."Dad, that was a blast...I want to come every week!"

I was laughing on the inside, only God could pull off such a feat.


24 posted on 07/14/2004 11:53:57 AM PDT by Prolifeconservative (If there is another terrorist attack, the womb is a very unsafe place to hide.)
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To: drstevej; NYer; RnMomof7
Telling someone they should know better than to post their beliefs is what I reacted to.

Disrespecting the Catholic Doctrine of the Real Presence by stating “ I adore God, not a piece of bread, I trust Jesus to save me, not a piece of bread “ is what I’m talking about.

25 posted on 07/14/2004 11:56:55 AM PDT by pegleg
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To: pegleg

***Disrespecting the Catholic Doctrine of the Real Presence by stating “ I adore God, not a piece of bread, I trust Jesus to save me, not a piece of bread “ is what I’m talking about.***

That is no disrespect. It is a plain statement of Protestant theology. It is disagreement, to be sure.

Tell me you consider my views heretical and it doesn't bother me. But tell me that I have no business posting my views and I ask when did this become a Catholic Forum?

If you are offended by statements that are not congruent with Catholic dogma, then why not post on a Catholics only forum?


26 posted on 07/14/2004 12:20:40 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej

Yes, the disagreement is in the theology. That isn't the problem. The offense is in the way that disagreement is stated. We've all done it from time to time, on all sides.


27 posted on 07/14/2004 12:29:27 PM PDT by Desdemona (Out of town July 15-August 3. Away from computers.)
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To: pegleg
It is also well established that neither Catholic nor Orthodox Christians believe a consecrated host is a piece of bread.

I am an Orthodox Christian and it is a piece of bread. A piece of bread with the real presence of Christ, but nonetheless a piece of bread. Just as Christ was also both divine and human.

28 posted on 07/14/2004 12:35:38 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: drstevej
That is no disrespect.

I, and many others don’t view it that way.

It is a plain statement of Protestant theology.

No it’s not. The added comment of “not a piece of bread” is a disrespect, not a disagreement, of Catholic doctrine.

It is disagreement, to be sure.

Agreed.

But tell me that I have no business posting my views and I ask when did this become a Catholic Forum?

Post all the views you want. All I’m saying is we all need to respect opposing views.

If you are offended by statements that are not congruent with Catholic dogma, then why not post on a Catholics only forum?

I am not offended by the fact that many don’t agree the Eucharist is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. Good grief man, we’ve got a bunch of Catholic’s that feel the same way. Just like you get your panties in a wad if someone makes a disparaging comment against Calvin, Catholics react the same way when the Eucharist is disrespected.

29 posted on 07/14/2004 12:43:24 PM PDT by pegleg
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To: MarMema
I am an Orthodox Christian and it is a piece of bread. A piece of bread with the real presence of Christ, but nonetheless a piece of bread. Just as Christ was also both divine and human.

Substance And Accidents

30 posted on 07/14/2004 12:53:53 PM PDT by pegleg
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To: MarMema
I am an Orthodox Christian and it is a piece of bread. A piece of bread with the real presence of Christ, but nonetheless a piece of bread. Just as Christ was also both divine and human.

If it's bread "with the Real Presence", it's not bread: bread is a mixture of flour, water and some other ingredients. The Eucharist ceases to be "bread" at consecration.

31 posted on 07/14/2004 12:59:34 PM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: pegleg

***Just like you get your panties in a wad if someone makes a disparaging comment against Calvin, Catholics react the same way when the Eucharist is disrespected.***

Make any disparaging remark you wish as long as it is factual and it's fine with me.

*** Good grief man, we’ve got a bunch of Catholic’s that feel the same way. ***

Then redirect your indignity. Expect Catholics to be Catholics, and don't get frothy at what was a very mild Protestant comment.

BTW, Protestants believe it is precisely "a piece of bread" that pictures the One Who died in our place. We adore the Person rather than the picture.


32 posted on 07/14/2004 1:01:29 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
Not all Protestants disbelieve the Real Presence. The Lutheran view of the Eucharist is just as "high" as the Roman view; it does a better job of taking into regard the insights of the Eastern Fathers in particular- and on that respect is close to some expositions of the Eucharist in Eastern Orthodox theology.

Among Anglicans the matter of the Real Presence is, naturally, rather hard to nail down. The Articles are adamant in the reality of it, but aside from an affirmation of a "spiritual" nature and a rejection of transubstantiation, interpretation is fairly open. Some of the Carolina Divines and the Anglo-Catholics have a very high Eucharistic doctrine, which at times approaches the Roman or Lutheran view. And then amongst the Low Church folks, one might find an almost Zwinglian bare-bones symbolism.

Even Calvin had a remarkably high view of the Eucharist, endorsing a Real Presence, although the exact nature of his views is definitely a matter of debate. He disagreed quite admantly with Luther- but also with Zwingli. At any rate, Zwingli's novel position was the minority among the Reformers. His view has definitely proven the winner in modern Protestantism, if defined by the number of adherents or semi-adherents.

Heck, even the originial Baptist confessions on Communion have sacramental-sounding language, with talk of grace being connected to the Eucharist, and even of partaking of Christ in some sense. By contrast, few evangelicals today make any connection between the Eucharist and God's action. It is merely a memorial meal in which the action is entirely one of exercising faith via a didactic rite.

33 posted on 07/14/2004 1:02:03 PM PDT by Cleburne
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To: drstevej
...then why not post on a Catholics only forum?

Probably thought he was......

34 posted on 07/14/2004 1:10:43 PM PDT by ksen (Free the GRPL 3! (Woody, CaRepubGal, Wrigley))
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To: NYer
It's not really that surprising that claims of a Eucharistic miracle witnessed by Baptists as well as Catholics would attract anti-Catholic agitation and attacks on beliefs in the Blessed Sacrament. All attacks on the Blessed Sacrament and the Church are demonic. This country is suffering through waves of anti-Catholic attacks and agitation.

Miracles are signs of God's glory and mercy.

35 posted on 07/14/2004 1:11:23 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: drstevej
Make any disparaging remark you wish as long as it is factual and it's fine with me.

If you say so.

Expect Catholics to be Catholics,

I do.

and don't get frothy at what was a very mild Protestant comment.

Let’s agree to disagree

BTW, Protestants believe it is precisely "a piece of bread" that pictures the One Who died in our place. We adore the Person rather than the picture.

You do understand Catholics adore the person also. We just happen to believe he’s present in the Eucharist.

36 posted on 07/14/2004 1:13:28 PM PDT by pegleg
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To: Cleburne
...the action is entirely one of exercising faith via a didactic rite.

Are you, a Catholic, opposed to "exercising faith via a didactic rite?"

37 posted on 07/14/2004 1:14:49 PM PDT by ksen (Free the GRPL 3! (Woody, CaRepubGal, Wrigley))
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity; pegleg; drstevej; RnMomof7
All attacks on the Blessed Sacrament and the Church are demonic.

I expect pegleg will be along any minute now to chastise the poster of this remark for not being respectful of others' beliefs.

38 posted on 07/14/2004 1:16:53 PM PDT by ksen (Free the GRPL 3! (Woody, CaRepubGal, Wrigley))
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To: ksen
Probably thought he was......

What's up ksen? You mean you’re not a Catholic? :-)

39 posted on 07/14/2004 1:17:38 PM PDT by pegleg
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To: drstevej; pegleg; RnMomof7
is it now inappropriate for Protestants, who were former Catholics, to state their beliefs in the Religion Forum?

Of course not ... how did her comment become a 'statement of faith'? Like Mom, I adore God and I trust Jesus to save me. She may have abandoned her faith in the Real Presence but Christ has not abandoned His faith in her.


While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body."
Matthew 26:26

40 posted on 07/14/2004 1:17:44 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: conservonator
If it's bread "with the Real Presence", it's not bread: bread is a mixture of flour, water and some other ingredients. The Eucharist ceases to be "bread" at consecration.

I know that is true for the Catholic church. It is not true for mine. I did not mean to imply that your belief was such. I was only correcting the Orthodox part of the statement.

41 posted on 07/14/2004 1:20:45 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: conservonator
Could the Eucharist not be both bread and the Body, without either losing their essential natures, yet without division (ie one cannot seperate, after consercration, bread on one hand and body on the other- the "hypostasis" of the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ)? This would be more in line with Chalcedonian Christology I think, echoing the mystery of the Hypostatic Union. It would also mesh with St. Irenaeus, who spoke of the Eucharist as being both heavenly and earthly. Also note that the bread, while not being destroyed, ie, its nature wholly abrogated into the Body, in its new identity, is most definitely changed, because it is now no longer just bread, but the Body of Christ, through indivisible union and "co-penetration".
42 posted on 07/14/2004 1:21:26 PM PDT by Cleburne
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To: NYer
A consecrated host is NOT a piece of bread and you especially, as a former catholic, know better than to post that comment.

Does it not maintain the physical appearance of Bread?

I have read that after consumed it is again bread.

I believe according to the bible that Christ lives in me and I in Him. That is not a short lived event, once a week but one that has existed since I believed , I will one day meet the Father in Christ and His righteousness.

43 posted on 07/14/2004 1:23:14 PM PDT by RnMomof7 (Stubborn is worse than stupid.)
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To: pegleg
What's up ksen? You mean you’re not a Catholic? :-)

I consider myself a little "c" catholic. How's that? ;^)

44 posted on 07/14/2004 1:25:00 PM PDT by ksen (Free the GRPL 3! (Woody, CaRepubGal, Wrigley))
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To: RnMomof7; pegleg; Cleburne; Desdemona; MarMema; drstevej
I believe according to the bible that Christ lives in me and I in Him.

Transubstantiation reflects Roman Catholic faith in the literalness of the words of the Bible.

Jesus (omnipotent God) said: "This is my body; this is my blood." And again Jesus said: "I am the bread of life;" "My flesh is true food; my blood is true drink;" "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood ...;" etc.

Roman Catholics take Jesus at His word: the bread is his body; the wine is his blood.

From the Apostles at the Last Supper until today, the bread and wine of Eucharist looks and feels and tastes like bread and wine in the eating and drinking.

Similar to all of God's Word, faith is essential. Faith in what? In the words of Jesus even though the bread does not look, feel, taste like flesh; even though the wine does not look, feel, taste like blood.

Medieval philosophers and theologians sought simply to label this simple biblical faith: Jesus said that bread is his body and wine is his blood even though it did not appear to change into visible flesh and blood.

Transubstantiation means the substance part of the bread and wine elements changes; but the accidental parts--sight, taste, smell, touch--do not. Catholics believe that since Jesus said it and He is God, he can do it. They believe! "Transubstantiation" merely labels it.

In everyday life, it is not at all uncommon to believe in things man cannot perceive by the senses: wind, electricity, love, peace, etc. All the more when Jesus says it.

45 posted on 07/14/2004 1:29:26 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: ksen

I'm not Roman Catholic- see my post below for my disagreements with transubstantiation- but to answer your question: no, there is nothing wrong with didatic purposes in any rite. The Anglican Carolina Divines made it a point that the Liturgy- including the Eucharist- should very much work towards the ediffication of faith. However, it is wrong to reduce the Eucharist to nothing more than an aid to faith in the sense that a picture is an aid to faith, or even a sermon. There is more to the Eucharist going on than a sermon in bread and wine. When Paul said that we partake of Christ's body and blood in the bread and cup, he did not mean that we are led to think about Him in it- though we are led to think about Him, and, hopefully, to exercise faith in Him (without which the sacrament will not aid you). Paul, I believe, meant this by what he said: that the bread and cup are truly our partaking of Christ's Body and Blood, through the Spirit (and hence spiritual in the true sense!).


46 posted on 07/14/2004 1:30:23 PM PDT by Cleburne
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To: ksen
I expect pegleg will be along any minute now to chastise the poster of this remark for not being respectful of others' beliefs.

Disagreements are to be expected. Attacks, well, that’s a different matter.

47 posted on 07/14/2004 1:38:21 PM PDT by pegleg
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To: Cleburne; ksen; HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity; conservonator; drstevej; RnMomof7; pegleg
Paul, I believe, meant this by what he said: that the bread and cup are truly our partaking of Christ's Body and Blood, through the Spirit (and hence spiritual in the true sense!).

Why are you more focused on Paul, rather than on the Gospel, which proclaims the Truth?

The beloved disciple, John, the last of the New Testament writers, wrote his Gospel in the 90's. John was an eyewitness to the events of the Last Supper (Jn 6:30-68).

Jn 6:53-56
Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him."

Hence Catholic Christian belief in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the eucharist rests upon the literal meaning of the words of the Last Supper as recorded by the Evangelists and Paul.

The uniformity of expression across the four authors affirms the literalness. Belief in the real presence demands faith--the basis of new life as called for by Christ throughout scripture. But faith in signs conferring what they signify is the basis also for the Incarnation--appearances belying true meaning. The true significance of the real presence is sealed in John's gospel. Five times in different expressions, Jesus confirmed the reality of what he means.

Jn 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.
Jn 6:53
Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Jn 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life.
Jn 6:55
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Jn 6:56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

The best way a person can make a clear literal point is repetition of the same message in different ways. Jesus did this. Those around him clearly understood what he was saying--cannibalism and the drinking of blood--both forbidden by Mosaic Law.

Jn 6:60,66
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?" ... As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
Jn 6:60,66
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?" ... As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

Had these disciples mistaken the meaning of Jesus' words, Jesus would surely have known and corrected them. He didn't. They had clearly understood his meaning--Jesus' flesh was to be really eaten; his blood to be really drunk.

48 posted on 07/14/2004 1:38:46 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: pegleg
Disagreements are to be expected. Attacks, well, that’s a different matter.

Which was that "demonic" comment: disagreement or attack?

49 posted on 07/14/2004 1:44:01 PM PDT by ksen (Free the GRPL 3! (Woody, CaRepubGal, Wrigley))
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To: conservonator
If it's bread "with the Real Presence", it's not bread

And yet Christ was both God and man.

50 posted on 07/14/2004 1:45:36 PM PDT by MarMema
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