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Infiltration of the Catholic Church? Testimony of Ex-Communist Bella Dodd ...
www.inatoday.com via CatholicCitizens.org ^ | Toby Westerman

Posted on 07/18/2004 5:14:11 PM PDT by narses

Clerical abuse against children, charges of Mafia-style cover-ups, and the destruction of Catholic moral teaching are tearing at the Catholic Church, and turning the 2,000 year-old faith into fodder for lowbrow comedy.

An affidavit recently obtained by INA Today attributes the Catholic Church's present state of collapse to a calculated attack beginning decades ago, with initial successes appearing in the 1960s.

The affidavit affirms that Communist Party organizer and high Party official, Bella Dodd, made public statements during the decade of the 1960s declaring that the Catholic priesthood was infiltrated by numerous Communist agents, whose mission was "to destroy the Catholic Church from within."

Dodd later returned to the Catholic Church and published a book about her experiences, entitled School of Darkness (out of print at present).

"In the late 1920's and 1930's, directives were sent from Moscow to all Communist Party organizations. In order to destroy the Catholic Church from within, party members were to be planted in seminaries and within diocesan organizations," Dodd stated according to the affidavit.

"I, myself, put some 1,200 men in Catholic seminaries," Dodd publicly declared.

Dodd did not include these remarks concerning her activities directed against the Catholic Church in her book, which was first published in 1954, leading some to question whether the remarks were actually made.

In an exclusive interview with INA Today, Catholic philosopher Dr. Alice von Hildebrand confirmed that Dodd had made the remarks, and provided the affidavit from Paul and Johnine Leininger, who witnessed Dodd making the public statements.

When contacted by INA Today, Mrs. Johnine Leininger stated that there were others who could also verify that Dodd made the statements regarding infiltration into Catholic seminaries.

Dr. von Hildebrand told INA Today that Dodd had earlier refrained from detailing Communist efforts to undermine the Catholic priesthood at the request of Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, the individual responsible for bringing Dodd back into the Church.

Dodd's infiltrators would have reached their highest positions of power and influence in the early to mid-60's, the period which saw the initial eruption of doctrinal and moral collapse within the Catholic Church during and immediately following the Second Vatican Council.

The process of Communist infiltration into Catholic seminaries, which Dodd described in her public talks, would have been part of a larger plan called "Outstretched Hand."

Communist Party archives in Moscow confirm the existence of operation "Outstretched Hand," and define its goals, according to Herbert Romerstein, author of the seminal work on Soviet espionage in the United States before, during, and after WWII, "The Venona Secrets."

At least one Soviet agent directly involved in "Outstretched Hand" is identifiable.

One document in Moscow's Soviet archives reveals that the Communist Party had infiltrated several influential Catholic organizations, including the Holy Name Society, the largest parish-oriented Catholic men's group, which is devoted to increasing reverence for the name of God and to good works in the Church and in society in general. A Holy Name Society chapter exists in almost every Catholic parish in the U.S.

The same document acknowledged the existence of a certain "Party comrade," who was "well known" in "conservative Irish Catholic circles" and who held offices "in various Catholic organizations…"

The "Party comrade" operated in a key parish which provided "leadership" and shaped "the policies of most of the reactionary and anti-Communist campaigns that are now developing in the Catholic world," according to the Soviet file.

Romerstein also recounts in The Venona Secrets that the staff of the Catholic anti-Communist publication entitled Wisdom, produced by a priest of the Paulist order, was infiltrated, and unknowingly employed two Communist agents in influential positions.

The Party boasted that one of their agents was "widely known to be a conservative in Irish circles," and was a staff correspondent for Wisdom. Romerstein identified the Party member and Soviet agent as Jeremiah F. O'Carroll, who, in 1930, was the president of the Irish Emergency Relief organization.

Although O'Carroll was identified as a spy in 1938, he remained listed as a staff correspondent for Wisdom at least until March 1939.

The second Soviet agent who worked for Wisdom remains unknown to this day.

The most recent - and notorious - incident of hostile infiltration into the U.S. Catholic Church is that of veteran FBI agent and convicted spy, Robert Hanssen. While placing his nation in mortal danger through his espionage activities, Hanssen also was believed to be a fervent Catholic.

Hanssen led a double life of betrayal, while serving as a spy for both the Soviet and "reformed" regimes in Moscow.

Although the precise extent of Communist infiltration of which Dodd spoke remains unknown, the effects are recognizable. Today, traditional Catholic beliefs, practices, and morality are not merely questioned, but are denounced and scorned by many of those who should protect and profess Church doctrine.

Mrs. Leininger, who confirmed Dodd's statements, told INA Today that she knows of several priests who faithfully taught the Catholic religion until they became bishops or were promoted to other influential posts, and then immediately exhibited hostility to that same faith which they had previously professed.

Leininger described these priests as "sleepers," a term designating individuals or groups who carry out their espionage function only at a selected time. Before becoming active, the "sleeper" will refrain from any espionage or subversive functions.

Dodd's infiltrators -- those who lost or never actually held the Catholic faith - would have been the mentors of the present generation of Catholic priests and bishops, in effect conducting their own "School of Darkness."

For more information about INI, see:

http://www.inatoday.com/

or write to:

Mail subscriptions to:

International News Analysis

2364 Jackson St. #301

Stoughton, WI 53589 U.S.A.


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1 posted on 07/18/2004 5:14:14 PM PDT by narses
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To: GatorGirl; maryz; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; livius; goldenstategirl; ...

Ping.


2 posted on 07/18/2004 5:14:43 PM PDT by narses (If you want ON or OFF my Catholic Ping List email me. +)
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To: narses
If true (and that seems likely at least to some degree), I am sure that I rubbed shoulders with hostile infiltrators during my career in Catholic education. I don't think, however, that the Commies are the worst ones to worry about.

Keep in mind...it is a matter of historical record (fact) that the Soviet espionage agencies used homosexual networks (Cambridge, among other places) as well as secret societies for the purposes of advancing Soviet Communist aggression. The latter came to light during the investigations of MI5 and MI6, the famous "mole hunts" of legend in British Intelligence organizations.

3 posted on 07/18/2004 5:22:51 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: narses

Joe McCarthy was right!


4 posted on 07/18/2004 5:50:25 PM PDT by NeoCaveman ("If we beat them bad enough, they can't cheat" - Hugh Hewitt)
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To: narses

interesting article...not to step on anyone's toes but I thought the Vatican's intelligence organization was better than that...or does this seem to be a localized problem in North America.


5 posted on 07/18/2004 5:59:50 PM PDT by ahadams2 (http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com is the url for the Anglican Freeper Resource Page)
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To: narses
maybe the book has them but it would be interesting to say the least to know a few of whom the infiltrators are. surely Bella Dodd could rememeber a few of the 1200
6 posted on 07/18/2004 6:40:06 PM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman
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To: narses
maybe the book has them but it would be interesting to say the least to know a few of whom the infiltrators are. surely Bella Dodd could remember a few of the 1200
7 posted on 07/18/2004 6:40:13 PM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman
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To: ahadams2

So was HM and the US, we thought. Sadly all are open to invasion. Ask Kim Philby, or Vicki Robinson.


8 posted on 07/18/2004 7:27:16 PM PDT by narses (If you want ON or OFF my Catholic Ping List email me. +)
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To: dubyaismypresident

He was, in fact. Too bad he let himself get carried away.


9 posted on 07/18/2004 7:28:37 PM PDT by narses (If you want ON or OFF my Catholic Ping List email me. +)
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To: Piers-the-Ploughman

I think Dodd died. A number have confessed, as I recall. The soviet archives ought to be revealing, as well.


10 posted on 07/18/2004 7:29:27 PM PDT by narses (If you want ON or OFF my Catholic Ping List email me. +)
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To: narses

naah, we're cleaning up a mess now that started about the time of the American Revolution (yeah, yeah, I know the Vatican has ashtrays older than that...:-) ). Anyway everybody put off dealing with the fruits, nuts, and flakes, for so long (assuming they'd eventually go away) that here in the Northern Hemisphere we're stuck in a Battle of Britain situation. While we can't go back and unmake 200 years of sloth, we are striving to insure that it doesn't happen again.


11 posted on 07/18/2004 7:43:01 PM PDT by ahadams2 (http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com is the url for the Anglican Freeper Resource Page)
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To: narses

I read a book about ten years ago, I THINK it was called CA-1125 The Diary of an Anti-Apostle. It documented on man's attempt to infiltrate the church. The book was very sobering.


12 posted on 07/18/2004 7:43:33 PM PDT by diamond6 (Everyone who is for abortion have been born. Ronald Reagan)
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To: ahadams2
I understand. Remember, there is always an Anglican Useage home waiting for you.

There has been a long and often close relationship between
the Anglican and Catholic Churches. In certain situations
there remains a mutual recognition of the validity of key
doctrines, liturgies, and practices. And the Catholic
Church continues to hold the faith and moral teachings as
taught by the Apostles.

I understand that there is also an Anglican Use liturgy
within the Catholic Church, wherein the Book of Common Prayer
is used for the Mass (with minor updates). So there is no need
to lose the liturgy Anglicans may be familiar with.

Resources for those interested in the Catholic faith:

Catholic Answers
www.catholic.com
A superb site for clearing away the myths propagated by too many.
Offers free on-line library that examines all the major issues,
free on-line archive of over 1,500 hours of radio/audio material,
plus magazines, books, pamphlets, tracts, videos, and more.

Coming Home Network
www.chnetwork.org
Provides fellowship, encouragement and support for Protestant
pastors and laymen who are somewhere along the journey or
have already been received into the Catholic Church.

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism
www.biblicalcatholic.com
Dave Armstrong's monster site. Eclectic, fun, exhaustingly
detailed, personal, moving, and more.

And may God bless your journey where ever it takes you.

posted on 08/05/2003 5:19 PM PDT by polemikos

13 posted on 07/18/2004 7:47:31 PM PDT by narses (If you want ON or OFF my Catholic Ping List email me. +)
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To: narses

Here's a related report...
http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_2001_SU_Hildebran.html


14 posted on 07/18/2004 9:43:42 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena
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To: AskStPhilomena; narses; Maximilian; ultima ratio; sinkspur; St.Chuck; BlackElk; AAABEST; ...
Interesting article Ask St.Philomena links with in the post above. I think much of what Dr.von Hillebrandt says is very true,especially that the Church has lost it's sense of the supernatural,that the Church was infiltrated by communists with the help of secret societies and that Paul VI set up a situation which led to the dismal state we are now in,by appointing sympathetic bishops,who staffed the chancery offices with like minded men.

He really put the present Holy Father in a terrible position which he is only now beginning to address since the rot and corruption was wide and deep. It is only in his second generation appointments that he can finally have some confidence in their orthodoxy.

I also think she has identified the strengths and the weakness of the Tridentine Mass and manages to admix and assimilate what Ultima,Max and AAA say with what Sinkspur and St.Chuck say so that it all makes sense.

Do any of you have any points of agreement or disagreement with what Dr. Von Hillebrandt says?

I believe if we all speak the Truth,live the Truth and pray unceasingly,we will have a smaller,stronger,poorer and purer Church and that will be a blessing for man and pleasing to the God. I don't think it's going to take as much time as many think.

15 posted on 07/18/2004 11:59:34 PM PDT by saradippity
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To: dubyaismypresident

Joe McCarthy was right!
For all the hoopla surrounding him and the House Un-American activities committee, NOBODY ever disproved any of McCarthy's allegation. Yes, he was right. What Bella Dodd said was born out in a book AA-1025, by Marie Carre. She was a nurse who cared for a car accident in a hospital. He died, and she found a diary among his effects - the contents of which became the essence of the book. AA= Anti Apostle...1025 was his number. There were 1025 false priestly vocations before him, and more to come after. He would never know all of them> some would be "sleepers"; some would have generalized functions. Some were intended to become prelates, others as parish priests. Their job was to infiltrate, get ordained, and start an agenda (this was in the 1930's) which would culminate in a great council (Vatican II), where the mass would be changed radically in its essence and structure; the practice of daily mass and devotions would be done away. Every abuse seen in the last 40 years is delineated in the plans this "priest" was to implement. The goal was that the "council" was to happen in the 60s.
The groundwork had been laid many years ago fo rthe destruction of the faith.


16 posted on 07/19/2004 12:20:47 AM PDT by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux!)
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To: saradippity; narses; thor76
Crisis ran a ridiculous article on the topic a while back trying to poo-poo the idea of hostile infiltration. It was not impressive and at odds with data in the public record and historical record on Anti-Catholic intrigues and agitation. Alice von Hildebrand responded with a letter to the editor. As far as I know, they never offered a correction although they published her letter.

I have a book around here somewhere which discusses that in point of fact...the KGB did actually have a unit which studied Catholic matters from a strategic and hostile espionage perspective. One should keep in mind that the Vatican (and the Catholic Church as a whole in Europe) was a key listening post in international espionage intrigues, that sources in the Vatican (including Pope Pius XII) had diplomatic links with intelligence agencies (British intelligence in particular), and that there were contacts pointing in many different directions. At that time British Intelligence was infiltrated by Soviet agents and sympthaizers. Um...ahem...if the Brits and the U.S. and the French were able to link with church sources for intelligence purposes so one might conclude could other global powers.

Catholicism through the 1950s was a major obstacle to Communist goals. Cardinal Mindszenty was targeted by Communist agencies. The church was attacked in Vietnam. Any power or organization willing to commit mass murder of priests and nuns would certainly have no qualms of employing other methods of warfare.

It's a fact that the Soviet intelligence agencies essentially took over offices of the Russian Orthodox Church to be manipulated for non-Christian purposes. Why stop there?

John Kerry is in fact a member of a couple of weird secret societies which could hardly be described as Christian. He styles himself in a bizarre way on religious matters which appear part of a social engineering strategy directed to manipulate Catholics in non-Catholic directions. Secret Societies harboring bizarre and grandiose anti-Catholic animosities and agendas exist. These are facts. While these may not explain all of the highly strange and bizarre problems afflicting the church today, it would be silly to overlook them.

The Soviet FBI mole (Hanssen) did infiltrate an Opus Dei chapter in the Washington, D.C. area. One would tend to doubt the KGB just settled with one. Connect the dots. There's a foul smell within the maze of modernism. It's coming from somewhere.

Watch the hand and finger signs carefully whenever someone begins sanctimoniously poo-pooing secret society conspiracies within the church. They're there. Keep a close watch on Kerry and all that happens around him.

17 posted on 07/19/2004 3:53:03 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: saradippity; narses; thor76; AskStPhilomena
Alice Von Hildebrand: There have been two books published in Italy in recent years that confirm what my husband had been suspecting for some time; namely, that there has been a systematic infiltration of the Church by diabolical enemies for much of this century...

The two books I mentioned were published in 1998 and 2000 by an Italian priest, Don Luigi Villa of the diocese of Brescia, who at the request of Padre Pio has devoted many years of his life to the investigation of the possible infiltration of both Freemasons and Communists into the Church. My husband and I met Don Villa in the sixties. He claims that he does not make any statement that he cannot substantiate. When Paulo Sesto Beato? (1998) was published the book was sent to every single Italian bishop. None of them acknowledged receipt; none challenged any of Don Villa’s claims.

In this book, he relates something that no ecclesiastical authority has refuted or asked to be retracted – even though he names particular personalities in regard to the incident. It pertains to the rift between Pope Pius XII and the then Bishop Montini (the future Paul VI) who was his Undersecretary of State. Pius XII, conscious of the threat of Communism, which in the aftermath of World War II was dominating nearly half of Europe, had prohibited the Vatican staff from dealing with Moscow. To his dismay, he was informed one day through the Bishop of Upsala (Sweden) that his strict order had been contravened. The Pope resisted giving credence to this rumor until he was given incontrovertible evidence that Montini had been corresponding with various Soviet agencies. Meanwhile, Pope Pius XII (as had Pius XI) had been sending priests clandestinely into Russia to give comfort to Catholics behind the Iron Curtain. Every one of them had been systematically arrested, tortured, and either executed or sent to the gulag. Eventually a Vatican mole was discovered: Alighiero Tondi, S.J., who was a close advisor to Montini. Tondi was an agent working for Stalin whose mission was to keep Moscow informed about initiatives such as the sending of priests into the Soviet Union.

http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_2001_SU_Hildebran.html

18 posted on 07/19/2004 4:10:33 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: AskStPhilomena; saradippity
Excellent interview w. Alice von Hildebrand!

It is only in his second generation appointments that [the Pope] can finally have some confidence in their orthodoxy.

I agree that bishops have been improving, but there are a couple of things that puzzle me. First of all, they are not really of a different generation - many of the "bad" VatII bishops in the US were appointed when they were very, very young, and the "good" ones who are being appointed now are in many cases almost the same age as the others. In my diocese, for example, the new bishop was 67 when he was appointed, and is now 71 (which I believe is even older than some undeniably bad bishops, such as Mahoney). So I think there always were good candidates, but they were passed over.

Another factor may have been that the papal nuncio changed. He seems to be the one who makes the recommendations on appointments. Pio Laghi, who was the nuncio, was terrible, and I think the one before him was not much better. (I'm not sure who it is now, but he certainly seems to be making better recommendations.)

19 posted on 07/19/2004 4:26:01 AM PDT by livius
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
Watch the hand and finger signs carefully whenever someone begins sanctimoniously poo-pooing secret society conspiracies within the church.

I must admit that I was one of those, but I'm beginning to change my mind.

As for the Masons, I think that it is hard for Americans to conceive of small town Protestant bankers and businessmen (probably what we think of as the traditional Masonic base here) as being involved in a conspiracy against the Church, and I doubt that they were. However, American Masonry is very different from European Masonry, which has always been unabashedly anti-Catholic, considers itself an alternative religion, and throughout the 19th and early 20th century, did everything to advance the cause of left-wing movements.

I used to think European-style Masonry would be the Communist version of a church, somewhat the way Napoleon wanted to create a "church" with rituals for his secular state. Now I think that Islam is probably be the religion of choice for the left in this century. Of course, we also have to remember the heavy dose of Islamic symbolism adopted by various Masonic groups.

20 posted on 07/19/2004 4:38:44 AM PDT by livius
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To: narses
The affidavit affirms that Communist Party organizer and high Party official, Bella Dodd, made public statements during the decade of the 1960s declaring that the Catholic priesthood was infiltrated by numerous Communist agents, whose mission was "to destroy the Catholic Church from within."

I think she made these statements in the late 1940s. They are not in her book School of Darkness that I can find but, I am pretty sure Alice von Hildebrand speaks of her making them at least by the early 1950s.

21 posted on 07/19/2004 5:31:57 AM PDT by Diva
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To: ahadams2

The Vatican's intelligence service was played like a cheap fiddle by the Communists during WWII. Look up Anton Turkul. Why expect anything better regarding the infiltration of seminiaries, when it is obvious from the pronouncements of many Priests and Bishops in the US, for example, that they are Communists or Fellow-Travellers?


22 posted on 07/19/2004 6:54:03 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: livius
However, American Masonry is very different from European Masonry, which has always been unabashedly anti-Catholic, considers itself an alternative religion, and throughout the 19th and early 20th century, did everything to advance the cause of left-wing movements.

Oh come on! Masonry is the US is throughly associated with the Mafia, the Police, and the higher levels of management in many companies. In many places, its impossible to get ahead without becoming a Mason. And its still the same old naturalistic anti-Catholic organization as you had in Europe. If it seems less anti-Catholic here in the US, its because the Catholic Church here is less Catholic.

23 posted on 07/19/2004 6:59:06 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: narses

Any relation to Chris Dodd?


24 posted on 07/19/2004 9:02:37 AM PDT by dangus
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity; narses; livius
Sandra Meisel wrote the silly little article on Conspiracies for Crisis,it was inane and much beneath their usual fare. That is except for the asinine treatment of the book "Good-Bye,Good Men",that was also surprising in its lack of facts and its support of Cardinal Danneel's pet seminary,Louvain. Ugh!!

I was quite surprised when two months later she (Meisel) wrote a scathing review of "The Divinci Code",since the unseen hand that moves the conspiracy also moves the author of the book. Makes one wonder.

I little interesting fact that is somewhat on topic:Pope Pius XII did not make Montini a Cardinal. Speculation is that he knew he was dangerous and did not want him to be Pope. I heard that they picked an older man,John XXIII,to name Montini and hopefully die soon after which he did.

25 posted on 07/19/2004 10:57:45 AM PDT by saradippity
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To: livius; HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity; narses
Jean Jadot and Cardinal Baggio,both members of secret societies were the tag team in Washington D.C. and the Vatican who pushed through so many apostate bishops,then Pio Laghi took over,he was just as bad.

Those apostates then ascended to power positions in the USCCB and were able to send only three tried and true fellow travelers to the Vatican. I know that many good Bishops were placed,many by accident,but they could be effectively muzzled by the Bernardins and Mahoneys and Deardens.

Even now one of their men is in position to take over the chairmanship/presidency of the USCCB. It's Skylstad of Spokane and he is bad. I hope and pray that the good Bishops are in a position to establish a new protocol. Currently the vice-prez or cochairman steps up,Skylstad is in that position now.

26 posted on 07/19/2004 11:16:13 AM PDT by saradippity
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To: dangus

No,Chris Dodd is of the Dodd family that speaks only to God,or something close. Bella Dodd comes from an Italian family,she was first or second generation at most.


27 posted on 07/19/2004 11:18:54 AM PDT by saradippity
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity; AskStPhilomena; saradippity; narses

uh folks, recommendations for any books (in English!) on this topic? how about related websites that don't go wandering off into tinfoil hat country?

Bottom line here is that my primary interest comes from my background as an intelligence analyst. The implied levels of infiltration suggested in this thread pose threats to more than just Roman Catholicism, y'know...


28 posted on 07/19/2004 11:23:11 AM PDT by ahadams2 (http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com is the url for the Anglican Freeper Resource Page)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker

one might hypothesize that leftist concentration on the SJ was related to this issue.


29 posted on 07/19/2004 11:25:30 AM PDT by ahadams2 (http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com is the url for the Anglican Freeper Resource Page)
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To: ahadams2
Yes, they do. And that dork Kerry will imperil more than just U.S. national security.

I suggest exploring the writings of Chapman Pincher and Peter Wright. Start with the Cambridge Apostles and connect the dots... Bugger freemason Commies. Pathetic.

30 posted on 07/19/2004 11:48:14 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: livius; thor76; narses; saradippity
Yes, yes, of course.

Other than spanking hookers at conventions occasionally, the creepy yokel bubbas in the gocarts drunk on mystery punch have little to do with the Kaballistic-Alchemical-Occult-Albigensian-Tantric-Templar-Sodomite-Jesus-Was-a-Mushroom-and-MaryMagdalen-was-the Holy-Grail-who-blew-him Neo-Gnosticism that fascinates anti-Catholic wackos. The people promoting The Da Vinci Code do have an agenda and their fantasies about Jacques de Molay are related to this in some bizarre manner. You don't need a tinfoil hat - THEY themselves brag and boast about their anti-Catholic global grandiosity.

Heck, Barnes&Noble is practically sponsoring an anti-Catholic crusade filled with the pro-secret society propaganda. It's out in the open. Not exactly an arcane secret. They would have to explain why their fascination and obsession with the Cathars, Gnostics, Essenes, and Templars requires contemporary intrigues against orthodox Catholicism. It's a damn lie that nothing is going on here.

The Jesuits, the seminaries, chanceries, and even Opus Dei (as the KGB Hanssen case shows) have been targeted FOR YEARS!

31 posted on 07/19/2004 12:03:42 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: saradippity

I was being a smart-@ss. :^)


32 posted on 07/19/2004 12:29:09 PM PDT by dangus
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
If it seems less anti-Catholic here in the US, its because the Catholic Church here is less Catholic.

LOL! Good point.

33 posted on 07/19/2004 12:30:45 PM PDT by livius
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To: saradippity
Jean Jadot and Cardinal Baggio

The very ones - I couldn't remember their names. Jadot I think was particularly evil.

I'm going to have to go look up Skylstad (I hope he was never in Charleston - everybody else seems to have been.)

34 posted on 07/19/2004 12:34:40 PM PDT by livius
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
They would have to explain why their fascination and obsession with the Cathars, Gnostics, Essenes, and Templars requires contemporary intrigues against orthodox Catholicism. It's a damn lie that nothing is going on here.

That is absolutely true. It's also, to add to your depression, worldwide. Every time I go to Spain, I find another spate of books has been published gushing about the Templars, for example.

I'm planning to do the Camino de Santiago next month, and these people are out there crawling all over the place now announcing how the Camino was really part of the Templar Magical Mystery Tour or some such thing. They have polluted absolutely everything. If I meet any of them, I may have to pop them in the chops.

35 posted on 07/19/2004 12:38:14 PM PDT by livius
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To: livius; narses; saradippity; thor76
And the other bizarre detail is this: Their grandiose cosmic struggle against "tyranny and supersition" (aka: Catholicism) is tinged with a heavily fantasy-laden, imaginary cartoon exaggeration of some sort 16th-century Spanish Inquisition theocracy which absolutely does not exist in the contemporary church. A cult baked on wild 14th-century pseudo-occult and heretical travesties rails and crusades against Robert Bellarmine, Torquemada, Ximenes, Savonarola, and Johann Tetzel as if contemporary Catholicism advocated their policies which it does not. Deranged. It would sort of be like holding all people from Massachusetts alive today responsible for the Salem Witch hunts and waging intrigues, conspiracies, and bigotry against them as if they were the witch burners. Bizarre.

Or like Shiite Moslems attacking contemporary Americans and Europeans because of the medieval crusades. Anti-Catholic secret societies are the Shiite jihadists of the secular humanist and occult underworlds. Classic "hate group." The "bubbas" who spout this stuff are usually backwoods semi-retards.

36 posted on 07/19/2004 2:43:17 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity

Cathars? Templars??? I didn't know there was any valid extant data available on the actual workings and specific gnostic beliefs of either group (outside of, maybe, the Vatican archives)...or are the new agers just using those names to cover up the fact that they're making up most of what they write?


37 posted on 07/19/2004 8:39:38 PM PDT by ahadams2 (http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com is the url for the Anglican Freeper Resource Page)
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
There are basically two types of masons: 1) the "bubba" type as you defined, and 2) the others. Bubba will almost never get above the Blue Lodge (the first three degrees) - though some do. The more dangerous ones are the second type for they will espouse the "bubba" line, while really believing in something else much more sinister.
There are really layers upon layers in the Lodge. Bubba is not equal to David Rockefeller or john Kerry (though he may be led to believe that he is). There are various eschelons. There are degrees beyond the 33rd. A lot depends on the mindset of the person in question, and the depth of the person's belief in and worship of the Great Architect of the Universe - who is in reality Lucifer. Now they will deny this, but at the upper eschelons, there is a serious occult matter. It is hidden from the majority of the membership - and is the "secret" to be guarded. The average Bubba who joins is literally quite innocent of this, and will most probably never know or conceive that such a thing is reality. There have been enough exposes by former members, and Papal Encyclicals, and scholarly theological tomes written on the subject - so I am not going to waste time defending the obvious against the ignorant. But this is the truth.
The reality at the upper levels makes Rosemary's Baby seem like Bambi by comparison. And it is literally unknown to the vast majority of the membership - who will never get to enter the upper levels. The "struggle against tyranny and superstition" is merely a cover story. And yes, I would agree that masonry is not the worst thing among secret societies. But it is the normal entry level for rht average Joe who wishes to appear respectable into the world of hte weird, esoteric, and occult. Once a member, depending on their "appropriateness for membership:, they may receive invites to other groups.
38 posted on 07/19/2004 10:10:19 PM PDT by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux!)
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To: ahadams2; narses; thor76; saradippity
Maybe Jahbulon and Moloch speak to them directly, specifying the proper ritual forms and costume wear. [irony]

Whatever animates and agitates a bunch of yahoos in, say, Arkansas to imagine that they are still locked in an ongoing cosmic battle with Pope Clement V, Phillippe Capet, and Torquemada...to the point of dressing up in battle costumes and RingWraith robes, mumbling Kabballistic anagrams is anyone's guess.

A couple of puzzles left from "the great work":
Jesus was a mushroom/Jesus married Mary Magdalen and settled in France.

The crusades were horrible crimes by the Catholic Church/We're proud to be descended from the Knights Templar warriors.

If Bill Clinton, John Kerry, Dan Brown, Aunt Bee, and Opie Taylor from Mayberry are keepers of the arcane secrets of Templar-Essene-Cathar-Albigensian-Tantric-MagicMushroom-Alchemical-Bogomil-Kabballistic-Pythagorian-Neo-Gnostic geomantic gymnosophy twister, I would tend to imagine there must be something rather amusing at the center of all of this spiritual confusion.

There may be a clue in HELP!:
'Why were the high priests of the terrible goddess of Kaili interested in the Beatles?'

http://www.geocities.com/~beatleboy1/dbhelp65.int.html

39 posted on 07/19/2004 10:13:22 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: ahadams2
Bottom line here is that my primary interest comes from my background as an intelligence analyst. The implied levels of infiltration suggested in this thread pose threats to more than just Roman Catholicism, y'know...

I was thinking the very same thing, only I have been known to wear a tin foil hat quite often! :-)

40 posted on 07/19/2004 10:25:39 PM PDT by ladyinred (What if the hokey pokey IS what it's all about? Become a monthly donor and find out!!!)
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To: ahadams2; saradippity; thor76; narses; Land of the Irish; TradicalRC
Almost forgot one - and it's a real howler:

Jesus isn't divine, supernatural, or magical...but his bloodline with Mary Magdalen is!

Hah! (They don't like Aristotle because the church picked him up so they chucked logic, so it seems)

41 posted on 07/19/2004 10:26:49 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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bttt


42 posted on 07/19/2004 10:37:20 PM PDT by Coleus (Abraham Lincoln was a trial lawyer.)
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To: thor76
thor76:basically two types

Yosemite Sam, the cantankerous and rambunctious WarnerBrothers cartoon character, is a fairly good working model of the hoodwinked stooge. More difficult to picture him in a black sorcerer's robe conjuring lesser sprites of Lucifer while impersonating a Catholic clergyman during daylight hours. Harder to imagine Sam weathering through 5 or 6 years of Latin and Greek studies.

One might suspect that Latin was suppressed, along with the Latin Mass, in order to make it easier for impostors and creepy KGB agent types to fake being priests.

Uh...ahem...yeah...

43 posted on 07/19/2004 10:44:46 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity

Not Yosemite Sam! I liked to think of him as a decent if somewhat misanthropic conservative who would give PETA a run for their money.


44 posted on 07/20/2004 7:24:14 AM PDT by TradicalRC (From big government conservatives, good Lord deliver us.)
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity; narses; thor76; saradippity

HMBA wrote "Maybe Jahbulon and Moloch speak to them directly, specifying the proper ritual forms and costume wear. [irony]"

well if your heretics are like our heretics (and it certainly seems they are) then that's not entirely ironic. Although 90 percent of them are merely illogical wackos, the other 10 percent dabble in some very dark things indeed; including witchcraft, necromancy, and all sorts of other evil stuff. If one considers the actions of the heretical leadership from this perspective, one can see that at least some of them are actively serving the enemy.


45 posted on 07/20/2004 12:19:56 PM PDT by ahadams2 (http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com is the url for the Anglican Freeper Resource Page)
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To: ahadams2
No doubt. It has been suggested that all of the overly elaborate and absurdly complicated pseudo-Kabballistic alchemical/geomantic/theosophical hocus pocus is just a very elaborate method of deceptions for Lucifer to make himself gradually manifest.

Appealing to pride, greed, power-lust, fear, intimidation, social peer pressure, willingness to compromise moral principles, etc. The reason why when looking at it it all looks so bizarre and is hard to make sense out of is because it was constructed by a non-human mind. [wink]

46 posted on 07/20/2004 12:27:19 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
Yosemite Sam,
Actually I had in mind more of a Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel from the Simpsons! But we could easily conceive of two models for Bubba" the rural and the urban. Not much difference between them except in accent & dress.
One might suspect that Latin was suppressed, along with the Latin Mass, in order to make it easier for impostors and creepy KGB agent types to fake being priests.
You may well have a point there. In the book AA-1025, Latin was to be suppressed as part of the long term agenda for the church. I don't recall if that was spelled out as one of the reasons for it, but it would certainly make sense. The ostensible reason was to "eliminate the sense of the sacred and of mystery" from the mass. They certainly succeeded on that point. Chant and organs were to be suppressed in favor of popular songs which would trivialize the mass.
Regardless of the degree or extent of any literal, conscious infiltrators (of which there are many), we have the parallel problem of invalid ordinations. One who seeks approaches a sacrament unworthily (in a state of mortal sin - of insincere intent) cannot validly receive that sacrament - regardless of the validity of the rite used, or of the valid status of the Bishop conferring the sacrament. thus you have a situation where an untold number of ordinations are not valid on account of the false intention of the candidate. This is in addition to the problem posed by the use of invalid versions of the Rite of Ordination, and of Bishops performing the ceremonies who are themselves not validly consecrated as bishops....or who through apostasy and/or masonic membership have excommunicated themselves.
Thus you have a major, unspoken worldwide crisis. We have no way of accurately gauging the actual numbers - although the presumed percentages of "phonies" are staggering. The Pope knows of this - to be sure. But he can do nothing, as the bishops are for the most part in open schism, and will not listen to him. The solution - a massive re-ordination of all clergy - is impossible, as it requires the bishop/priests to admit that there could be such a problem, and it requires humility to submit to re-ordination.
Infiltration - yes, absolutely! The allied problem of invalid priests means: 1) many masses are invalid, 2) many confessions are invalid, 3) many confirmation are invalid, 4) invalid baptisms (hard to screw up - but without the proper intention, quite possible), 5) invalid ordinations. 6)no extreme unction of the dying souls (the wont perform the ritual, and it would not be valid in many cases).
So......ya got trouble, my friends! this is not wild conjecture - it is fact.
47 posted on 07/20/2004 12:30:25 PM PDT by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux!)
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity

Okay, I'm going to get openly Charismatic at you for a minute - I hope that neither you, nor any of the other RC folks on this thread find this offensive - appologies in advance if so!

Actually the whole labyrinth fol de rol, as currently used, is designed and intended to accomplish just what you described. If the instructions provided by the various 'pro-labyrinth' organizations are followed the labyrinth itself is laid out in such a manner that it forms a potential...well, call it a 'weak spot' through which spiritual entities (and we're talking demonic entities here) can exert some influence over those humans who move within it's boundaries. All of the 'centering prayer' and meditation nonsense that unsuspecting people are told to do in order to 'enhance their experience walking the labyrinth' has the specific intent of maximizing their vulnerability to external spiritual influences.

One interesting thing a Christian can do, if he has to be around one of these things (not something I recommend, but I understand that some heretical parishes have actually set these things up so you have to walk around them to get into the church building itself) is to -without entering the labyrinth - take a handful of consecrated salt, toss it toward the center of the labyrinth while quietly invoking the Trinity. Sometimes nothing obvious will appear to happen, but other times one can get some really revealing reactions from people who suddenly show up to see what's going on. In any case it isn't a waste of the consecrated salt, for all the obvious reasons.

As for the one historically obvious question: no I do NOT know why there are labyrinths on the floors of some older european cathedrals - either they were used for an entirely different purpose, *or* they may represent an earlier assault on the Church by the enemy. Either way that's one of those issues which would require a lot of research by someone with more resources than myself.


48 posted on 07/21/2004 10:14:09 AM PDT by ahadams2 (http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com is the url for the Anglican Freeper Resource Page)
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To: ahadams2
Interesting theory. I have no idea.

There was an episode of In Search of... once on the Holy Grail legend which discussed an apparent labyrinth structure in the landscape of Glastonbury. The suggestion is that it pre-dates Christianity. What type of rite it was used for, I have no idea. It would certainly be bizarre if it turned out to have any links with a victim sacrificing pagan cult. All those bog men. [eerie horror film sound effects...]

49 posted on 07/21/2004 11:03:19 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: ahadams2
Okay, I'm going to get openly Charismatic at you for a minute...

I'll admit that line had me really scared for a few moments... LOL!

50 posted on 07/21/2004 11:11:09 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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