There's nothing
MORE purpose driven than The Gospel.
I applaud and cheer Warren on
as,
undoubtedly, does Jesus and Holy Spirit and The Father.
Eventually, you'll learn their attitude on it rather emphatically.
Until then, you might ponder this . . .
jealousy, prissy phariseeism and the like are not wonderful Christian traits.
JESUS SAID those not against Him were with Him when the disciples started finding fault with those not doing it quite to their prissy standards. Jesus rebuked them soundly.
Not sure what words were so hard to understand in that.
Sigh.
Warren and team will undoubtedly end up bringing many 10's of thousands MORE (and that lastingly) into The Kingdom than all those detractors and their entire churches, COMBINED. Given all the angels rejoicing over that, one would think it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to know when to join in the rejoicing.
I praise and thank God that FINALLY there are SOME churches where seekers can explore, investigate The Gospel and corporate Christian expressions of it without running into stuffy, cliquish, pharisee driven, sanctimonious, self-righteous, dead, frozen, hypocritical, harsh, brittle, prickly, sober-faced so-called Christianity.
Given Holy Spirit's responsiveness obviously using it to LIFT UP CHRIST and DRAW SINNERS TO HIM . . . God must approve of it a LOT, too.
Quix: Warren and team will undoubtedly end up bringing many 10's of thousands MORE (and that lastingly) into The Kingdom than all those detractors and their entire churches, COMBINED.
And just how exactly did that book do that? Are the seekers hanging out at the bookstore just waiting for their opportunity to find Jesus in Rick Warren's book? Amazing.
Quix: I praise and thank God that FINALLY there are SOME churches where seekers can explore, investigate The Gospel and corporate Christian expressions of it without running into stuffy, cliquish, pharisee driven, sanctimonious, self-righteous, dead, frozen, hypocritical, harsh, brittle, prickly, sober-faced so-called Christianity.
Finney could not have said it better.
The problem with Rick Warren's book is not that it is that bad, but Christians with bad doctrine, who have been sucked into Finney's seeker sensitive ideas, are going nuts over the books. It is a far cry from Christ, who actually drove people away with the preaching of the truth. He certainly didn't preach any seeker sensitive garbage. He never decked out the church with hip new worship styles and waited for the seekers to come in; he went out and found them. Too bad the Rick Warren crew seems to have forgotten that.
To be honest, the seeker sensitive movement has done more harm to the mission effort than all other unorthodox movements. Thankfully, there are still a few Baptist churches who haven't forgotten the great missionary spirit of their past.
Cordially,
Christian.
can't say I agree with you that people are getting saved THROUGH the PDL material. Maybe this is the first taste of the Gospel, but it is not the full brunt of it. The word makes clear. Faith comes through hearing. And hearing the word of Christ. I only saw Christ preached as a friend, and confidante. I did not see any mention of Hell, God's wrath, judgement, Man's hopeless condition, and the need to embrace the substitutionary atonement for the punishment Man deserves. The Cross of Christ was never meant to be a feel good message.
You hit the nail on the head with this statement Quix. It is absolutely true! Some insist they are "walking the walk" while they treat those they consider "sinners" with disrespect, if they address them at all.
Would appreciate it if you are going to quote Jesus that you would please post the verse. Thanks!
Bump!
"..I praise and thank God that FINALLY there are SOME churches where seekers can explore, investigate The Gospel and corporate Christian expressions of it without running into stuffy, cliquish, pharisee driven, sanctimonious, self-righteous, dead, frozen, hypocritical, harsh, brittle, prickly, sober-faced so-called Christianity."
I think this almost doesn't sound like you mr. quix. but, I think what the people who have a problem with this book are concerned about is the focus, although slight, away from Christ, and toward a people centered Gospel experience. I think that in his effort to make the Gospel sound palaltable to many, he did water it down. This is in my opinion, which that's all we're dealing with here, our opinions. i hate to see your usual good nature and encouragement hit the dirt in the face of someone's objections to this book. I think that in the Body of Christ there are many different gifts, and they all have different purposes. Perhaps the teachers among us are alert to the distortions that are not so easliy seen by others. at any rate.............my .o7 cents.......
Oh yes, now they're just stuffy,unstuffy, still-cliquish, pharisee driven, sadducee-driven sanctimonious,still sanctimonious over different things self-righteous,still self-righteous dead,painted-corpse frozen, lukewarm hypocritical, still hypocritical harsh, outwardly polite brittle,stunted prickly, polished sober-faced fake-smiling so-called Christianity.
Blind man, ask for healing for your eyes. WE NEED to feel bad about our sin. It is a sign that we are being regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
From your profile page:
"The latter is about Biblical type Holy Spirit breathed dreams and visions regarding the end times. "
Ah, that's your problem. You have fallen into the TBN trap as well. Tell me, do you like Rick Joyner (Another false teacher?) How about Jesse Duplantis? He's very entertaining I must admit - but he casts aspersions on the inerrancy of Scripture in his own 'visions' and 'dreams' as most of them do. So does Joyner. You should probably know your Scripture before you make assertions that something is Scriptural. If you know a few verses you can make Satan look Scriptural. Even Demons believe, and tremble.
Oh, man, you didn't waste ANY time did you! You even started BEFORE your insinuation at #36.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer:
Innumerable times a whole Christian community has broken down because it had sprung from a wish dream. The serious Christian, set down for the first time in a Christian community, is likely to bring with him a very definite idea of what Christian life together should be and to try to realize it. But God's grace speedily shatters such dreams. Just as surely as God desires to lead us to a knowledge of genuine Christian fellowship, so surely must we be overwhelmed by a great disillusionment with others, with Christians in general, and, if we are fortunate, with ourselves.
By sheer grace, God will not permit us to live even for a brief period in a dream world. He does not abandon us to those rapturous experiences and lofty moods that come over us like a dream. God is not a God of the emotions but the God of truth. Only that fellowship which faces such disillusionment, with all its unhappy and ugly aspects, begins to be what it should in God's sight, begins to grasp in faith the promise that is given to it.
The sooner this shock of disillusionment comes to an individual and to a community the better for both. A community which cannot bear and cannot survive such a crisis, which insists upon keeping its illusion when it should be shattered, permanently loses in that moment the promise of Christian community. Sooner or later it will collapse. Every human wish dream that is injected into the Christian community is a hindrance to genuine community and must be banished if genuine community is to survive. He who loves his dream of community more than the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter, even though his personal intentions may be ever so honest and earnest and sacrificial.
God hates visionary dreaming; it makes a dreamer proud and pretentious. The man who fashions a visionary ideal of community demands that it be realized by God, by others, and by himself. He enters the community of Christians with his demands, sets up his own law, and judges the brethren and God Himself accordingly. He stands adamant, a living reproach to all others in the circle of brethren. He acts as if he is the creator of the Christian community, as if his dream binds men together. When things do not go his way, he calls the effort a failure. When his ideal picture is destroyed, he sees the community going to smash. So he becomes, first an accuser of his brethren, then an accuser of God, and finally the despairing accuser of himself.
Because God has already laid the only foundation of our fellowship, because God has bound us together in one body with other Christians in Jesus Christ, long before we entered into common life with them, we enter into that common life not as demanders but as thankful recipients. We thank God for what He has done for us. We thank God for giving us brethren who live by His call, by His forgiveness, and His promise. We do not complain of what God does not give us; we rather thank God for what He does give us daily... In the Christian community thankfulness is just what it is anywhere else in the Christian life. Only he who gives thanks for little things receives big things.
We prevent God from giving us the great spiritual gifts He has in store for us, because we do not give thanks for daily gifts. We think we dare not be satisfied with the small measure of spiritual knowledge, experience, and love that has been given to us, and that we must constantly be looking forward eagerly for the highest good. Then we deplore the fact that we lack the deep certainty, the strong faith, and the rich experience that God has given to others, and we consider this lament to be pious. We pray for the big things and forget to give thanks for the ordinary, small (and yet not so small) gifts. How can God entrust great things to one who will not thankfully receive from Him the little things? If we do not give thanks daily for the Christian fellowship in which we have been placed, even where there is no great experience, no discoverable riches, but much weakness, small faith, and difficulty; if on the contrary, we only keep complaining to God that everything is so paltry and petty, so far from what we expected, then we hinder God from letting our fellowship grow according to the measure and riches which are there for us all in Jesus Christ.
Of course, at some point I will get tired of casting pearls before you and fending off your tusks.