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The Fourth Glorious Mystery
Christ or Chaos ^ | August 11, 2004 | Thomas A. Droleskey

Posted on 08/12/2004 5:57:08 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA

The glorious feast we will celebrate this Sunday, August 15, was defined solemnly as an article contained in the Deposit of Faith by Pope Pius XII in 1950, just fifty-four years ago. However, the feast of Our Lady’s Assumption body and soul into Heaven has been celebrated by the Church from the early centuries of the Church. Consider the words of Dom Prosper Gueranger, O.S.B., in The Liturgical Year:

At Rome the Assumption or Domitio of the holy Mother of God appears in the seventh century to have already been celebrated for an indefinite length of time; nor does it seem to have had any other day than August 15. According to Nicephorous Callistus, the same date was assigned to it for Constantinople by the Emperor Maurice at the end of the sixth century. The history notes, at the same time, the original of several other solemnities, while of the Dormitio alone, he does not say that it was established by Maurice on such a day; hence learned authors have concluded that the feast itself already existed before the imperial decree was issued, which was thus only intended to put an end to its being celebrated on various days.

This great feast day is celebrated on August 15, to be sure. However, anyone who prays all fifteen mysteries of Our Lady’s Most Holy Rosary (please, I ignore most luminously the Pope’s “Luminous Mysteries) contemplates the Assumption of Our Lady into Heaven every single day. The doctrine of the Assumption is intimately connected with the that of Our Lady’s Immaculate Conception. It is indeed telling that the only two exercises of ex cathedra Papal teaching in the recent past have been the proclamations of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. (The doctrine of Papal infallibility was proclaimed solemnly by the First Vatican Council, at which presided Blessed Pius IX.)

Our Lady was preserved from all stain of sin from the first moment of her conception in her mothers’s womb. She had a perfect human nature, that of Adam and Eve before their fall from grace in the Garden of Eden. Therefore, Our Lady was endowed with a superior intellect and a superior will. She had a delicate balance between her higher rational faculties and the lower passions. She, the New Eve and Ark of the New Covenant, was the singular vessel of honor in which she would enflesh the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity with a human body and a human nature by the power of the Holy Ghost. Although full of grace from the moment of her Immaculate Conception, Our Lady grew in holiness through the years as she, the Mediatrix of all graces and the co-Redemptrix of the world, surrendered herself to the will of the Father at every moment of her life.

Our Lady was presented in the Temple at the age of three by year parents, Saints Joachim and Anne, being consecrated to God at that moment. Our Lady had chosen perpetual virginity for herself, being given by God the privilege of conceiving a child by the power of the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity and giving birth without any loss of her virginity. The woman who was conceived without stain of sin belonged to God from the first moment of her Immaculate Conception. That she should be given the privilege of being with God with her body and soul united to each other following her death should come as no surprise.

Although preserved from the stain of sin, Our Lady suffered its effects on many occasions in her life. The aged Simeon told her that a sword of sorrow would pierce her soul so that the thoughts of many hearts would be laid bare. She was forced to flee with her chaste spouse, Saint Joseph, into Egypt when King Herod sought to kill the Child Jesus. As the Co-Redemptrix, Our Lady suffered with her Divine Son as He suffered the cruel effects of our own sins and our own indifference. For the Flesh that was offered up on the wood of the Holy Cross came from her flesh. The Most Precious Blood that was shed for the forgiveness of our sins came from her blood. The Most Sacred Heart that was pierced because of our offenses was formed out of her own Immaculate Heart. As there was a perfect communion between those two Hearts, Our Lady suffered completely with her Son. Having grown in holiness throughout her years of faithful service to the Blessed Trinity as a single girl and as a wife and Mother, the pain of sin was as horrific and tortuous to Our Lady as it was to her Divine Son. No mother has suffered more than Our Blessed Mother. For no other mother was conceived without sin. No other mother had a perfect communion of hearts with her son. No other mother was so thoroughly repulsed by the thought of sin than our Blessed Mother, given to us at the foot of the Cross to be our Mother.

We are sinners, however. We suffer in this life justly. Even when we suffer unjustly as a result of the thoughtless actions of others, we suffer Our Lady, offering up our sufferings to her Immaculate Heart so that they can be presented to the Blessed Trinity. As Our Lady’s consecrated slaves, we thus help to participate in the work of redemption, trusting that the merits we freely surrender to her will help make reparation for the just temporal punishment that is due our own sins and to help to alleviate the suffering of the Poor Souls in Purgatory. We know that our bodies, which are destined to age and to deteriorate because of Original Sin, must suffer the corruption of the grave until the General Resurrection of the Dead on the Last Day, at which point our bodies will be reunited with our souls to enjoy forever the bliss of the Beatific Vision or to endure the sufferings of hellfire and eternal separation from God in Hell.

It is no accident that the bodies of some saints remain incorrupt after death, for while they were not conceived immaculately, they so thoroughly despised sin and loved God with such fervor as He has revealed Himself through His true Church that their bodies emit a sweet odor even centuries after they had died. The preservation of the bodies of some great saints thus teaches us the necessity of Our Lady being assumed body and soul into Heaven. For if those who were conceived with the stain of sin but who aspired to holiness are deemed fit to be incorrupt after death, it is only just and right that the body of the Mother of God be assumed body and soul into Heaven to be crowned as Queen of Heaven and of earth.

Our Lady is our sure fortress against the power of sin in our lives and in our world. After the Mass and Eucharistic piety, it is devotion to Our Lady which most efficaciously helps to mold souls in the image of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Our Lady teaches us how to fulfill the Father’s will by the following the Son in Spirit and in Truth through His true Church, outside of which there is no salvation. Her bodily Assumption into Heaven teaches us how we must love God, how much we must despise sin, and how much we should strive on a daily basis to resist sin and grow in holiness for love of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Turning again to Dom Gueranger:

Thou didst taste death, O Mary! But that death, like the sleep of Adam at the world’s beginning, was but an ecstasy leading the Bride into the Bridegroom’s presence. As the sleep of the new Adam on the great day of salvation, it called for the awakening of resurrection. In Jesus Christ our entire nature, soul and body, was already reigning in heaven; but as in the first paradise, so in the presence of the Holy Trinity, it was not good for man to be alone. To-day at the right hand of Jesus appears the new Eve, in all things like to her Divine Head, in His vesture of glorified flesh: henceforth nothing is wanting in the eternal paradise.

O Mary, who according to the expression of thy devout servant John Damascene, has made death blessed and happy, detach us from this world, where nothing ought now to have a hold on us. We have nothing ought now to have a hold on us. We have accompanied thee in desire; we have followed thee with the eyes of our soul, as far as the limits of our mortality allowed; and now, can we ever again turn our eyes upon this world of darkness? O Blessed Virgin, in order to sanctify our exile and help us to rejoin thee, bring to our aid the virtues whereby, as on wings, thou didst soar to so sublime a height. In us, too, the must reign; in us, they must crush the head of the wicked serpent, that one day they may triumph in us. O day of days, when we shall behold not only our Redeemer, but also the Queen who stands so close to the Sun of Justice as even to be clothed therewith, eclipsing with her brightness all the splendours of the saints!

The Church, it is true, remains to you, O Mary, the Church, who is also our Mother, and who continues thy struggle against the dragon with its seven hateful heads. But she, too, sighs for the time when the wings of an eagle will be given her, and she will be permitted to rise like thee from the desert and to reach her Spouse. Look upon her passing, like the moon, at thy feet, through her laborious phases; hear the supplications she addresses to thee as Mediatrix with the divine Sun; through thee may she receive light; through thee may she find favour with Him who loved thee, and clothed thee with glory and crowned thee with beauty.

We can never presume our salvation. Indeed, a priest in Allentown, Pennsylvania, closed an otherwise awful “homily” on the Feast of the Assumption in 1980 by saying, “Where are we going? We’re all going to Heaven.” There’s a little word for this: heresy (which is just part and parcel of the conciliarist religion). No, our salvation is not guaranteed. We neither presume nor despair of our salvation. We simply trust that Our Lady will pray for us nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

Our Lady, Queen Assumed into Heaven, pray for us.

Saint Maximilian Mary Kolbe, the Apostle of Mary Immaculate, pray for us.

Saint Catherine Laboure, to whom Our Lady showed herself as the Mediatrix of all Graces, pray for us.

Blessed Feast day to one and to all this coming Sunday.


TOPICS: Catholic; Prayer
KEYWORDS: gloriousmysteries; mary; rosary
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Whatever people on this forum think of Thomas Droleskey, this article is centered on our Mother and her assumption.
1 posted on 08/12/2004 5:57:09 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA
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To: Convert from ECUSA; xzins; Corin Stormhands; RnMomof7; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; connectthedots
Our Lady was preserved from all stain of sin from the first moment of her conception in her mothers’s womb. She had a perfect human nature, that of Adam and Eve before their fall from grace in the Garden of Eden.

So, original sin doesnt apply to Mary? - Can you point me to the Scriptural basis for that please

Therefore, Our Lady was endowed with a superior intellect and a superior will. She had a delicate balance between her higher rational faculties and the lower passions. She, the New Eve and Ark of the New Covenant, was the singular vessel of honor in which she would enflesh the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity with a human body and a human nature by the power of the Holy Ghost. Although full of grace from the moment of her Immaculate Conception, Our Lady grew in holiness through the years as she, the Mediatrix of all graces and the co-Redemptrix of the world, surrendered herself to the will of the Father at every moment of her life.

hmmmmm - all news to me - again - the Scriptural basis for this assertion is what?

2 posted on 08/12/2004 10:31:54 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: Revelation 911
It's called typology. When God ordered the Ark of the Covenant to be made, which contained the written Word of God, He ordered that it by made of pure materials. When the actual Word comes to earth, humbling Himself, taking the form of the slave, do you think God would place Him in an "impure vessel?" I don't think so!
3 posted on 08/12/2004 10:39:32 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Pyro7480; Revelation 911
Do you think God would place Him in an "impure vessel?"

Yet Jesus walked on the ground, ate food, drank water, wore clothes, all like human men. That didn't detract from His Godliness.

The holy mystery of God lies in the Trinity, not in the peripherals, however blessed they may be.

4 posted on 08/12/2004 10:51:18 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (Hey, RNC! Get Bob Dylan to sing "Saving Grace" at the Convention!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The holy mystery of God lies in the Trinity, not in the peripherals, however blessed they may be.

Largely true, but I think some of the "peripherals," as you put it, matter though. Your point is well-taken, but aren't you detracting from the Mystery of the Incarnation by denying the means He used to come into ther world?

5 posted on 08/12/2004 10:53:39 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Pyro7480; Revelation 911
When the actual Word comes to earth, humbling Himself, taking the form of the slave, do you think God would place Him in an "impure vessel?" I don't think so!

But can you provide the scriptural reference Rev asked for?

6 posted on 08/12/2004 10:58:21 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (www.wardsmythe.com)
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To: Pyro7480
When the actual Word comes to earth, humbling Himself, taking the form of the slave, do you think God would place Him in an "impure vessel?" I don't think so!

well, I still dont see a Scriptural basis for the position

She was pure from the standpoint of virginity - however, if she was a child of Adam and Eve - she was part and parcel of original sin.

Gen 3:16 To the woman he said,

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'

"Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

7 posted on 08/12/2004 11:14:37 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: Revelation 911
I just read again last week that the co-redemptrix stuff is on the outs even with Catholics.

The immaculate conception argument is seen to be necessary by those who think a totally holy vessel is necessary to bear Jesus to avoid His having any spot of sin.

That always seemed to beg the question for me. Why then doesn't Mary's mother also have to be immaculately conceived, and her mother, and her mother, etc.

And if God can overcome that problem with Mary's mother, then why cannot it simply be applied to Jesus in the womb, since it was possible to apply that working to Mary in the womb?

I'm not trying to be argumentative. It's just the way I see it; the way my mind works.

8 posted on 08/12/2004 11:18:10 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army and Supporting Bush/Cheney 2004!)
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To: Convert from ECUSA

The whole Marian thing is the single biggest error of the Catholic church.


9 posted on 08/12/2004 11:21:58 AM PDT by biblewonk (And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.)
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To: biblewonk

You got that backwards. The denial of Mary's merits is the greatest error of the "Reformists."


10 posted on 08/12/2004 11:26:35 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Pyro7480
You got that backwards. The denial of Mary's merits is the greatest error of the "Reformists."

I assume that you mean the denial of the many things that the RCC has concocted about her that are not at all in the bible. I don't have a lot of concern about believing things that are not in the bible.

11 posted on 08/12/2004 11:30:51 AM PDT by biblewonk (And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.)
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To: xzins
Why then doesn't Mary's mother also have to be immaculately conceived, and her mother, and her mother, etc.

I think to stake the position of Mary's immaculate conception is to add dangerously what Scripture so plainly teaches. Christ came of a virgin - someone who was physically without sinful carnality - and someone so completely obedient to God that her relationship with her husband was placed aside while she bore the child.

To claim she was immaculate herself is to diminish Christs own conception, and call into question the uniqueness of His relationship with the Father and the Holy Spirit. -

Its not a quadrilateral (with apologies to wesley) - rather a Trinity

12 posted on 08/12/2004 11:36:01 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: biblewonk
"But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written."

This is from the ending of the Gospel of John. Because of this, it would seem that the Gospel is "incomplete." If some of these things were deemed important by the early Church, but wasn't found in the written Scripture (remember the Church came first), who passed them on?

13 posted on 08/12/2004 11:38:11 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Revelation 911
To claim she was immaculate herself is to diminish Christs own conception, and call into question the uniqueness of His relationship with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

It doesn't diminish Christ at all! This is how man thinks. Through God, "all things are possible." Remember, Jesus is true God, and true man. Mary is a creature, but she was spared the stain of sin, through the mercy of the Holy Trinity, of which the Son desired to come to earth to save us.

14 posted on 08/12/2004 11:40:23 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Pyro7480
This is from the ending of the Gospel of John. Because of this, it would seem that the Gospel is "incomplete." If some of these things were deemed important by the early Church, but wasn't found in the written Scripture (remember the Church came first), who passed them on?

That's pretty flimsy. First it says the bible is not complete. That verse doesn't say that so it is an anti biblical take on the verse. Second, it suggests that the church can be trusted above the scriptures when the bible itself warns again and again about the corruption that will come into the church.

15 posted on 08/12/2004 11:43:22 AM PDT by biblewonk (And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.)
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To: Pyro7480
It doesn't diminish Christ at all! This is how man thinks. Through God, "all things are possible." Remember, Jesus is true God, and true man. Mary is a creature, but she was spared the stain of sin, through the mercy of the Holy Trinity, of which the Son desired to come to earth to save us.

by who's supposition ? - I still dont see a Scriptural basis for this....and am starting to conclude one does not exist

16 posted on 08/12/2004 11:47:03 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: Convert from ECUSA

17 posted on 08/12/2004 11:49:51 AM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: biblewonk
I didn't say it was incomplete, I said "it would seem." The point about corruption in the church is well-taken, since man in imperfect, but what do you say about these seemingly-contradictory verses?

"Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me: and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you" (1 Corin. 11:2).
"Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1: 20-21)

18 posted on 08/12/2004 11:50:00 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Revelation 911

See my post #18.


19 posted on 08/12/2004 11:51:15 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah

20 posted on 08/12/2004 11:54:10 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Pyro7480

I guess I'm not seeing the contradiction. One verse is about Paul's authority and the other is about the inspiration of the scriptures. Do you know what ordinances Paul is talking about? Do you suppose he told them everything that he wrote in all of the epistles or maybe he told them not come to church drunk?


21 posted on 08/12/2004 11:55:53 AM PDT by biblewonk (And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.)
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To: biblewonk

The Scripture verses I am quoting basically refute your sola scriptura approach.


22 posted on 08/12/2004 11:57:00 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Convert from ECUSA
Our Lady was preserved from all stain of sin from the first moment of her conception in her mothers’s womb. She had a perfect human nature, that of Adam and Eve before their fall from grace in the Garden of Eden.

Then I guess I'd better take the Liquid Paper to that scripture that says "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

23 posted on 08/12/2004 11:57:36 AM PDT by william clark
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To: Pyro7480

How so?


24 posted on 08/12/2004 11:59:05 AM PDT by biblewonk (And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah

Thanks for posting the picture.


25 posted on 08/12/2004 11:59:19 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA (tired of shucking and jiving)
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To: biblewonk
Paul, the most important of the early missionaries, doesn't say "...keep the (unwritten) Scriptures as I have delivered them to you." He says, "...keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you" (1 Corin. 11:2).
26 posted on 08/12/2004 12:04:00 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Revelation 911
"So, original sin doesnt apply to Mary? - Can you point me to the Scriptural basis for that please"

Angel Gabriel: Hail Mary, full of Grace

Magnificat: "My soul doth magnify the Lord"

27 posted on 08/12/2004 12:05:05 PM PDT by Arguss (Take the narrow road)
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To: william clark
Then I guess I'd better take the Liquid Paper to that scripture that says "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

That or maybe have a better understanding of the word all and all

28 posted on 08/12/2004 12:05:43 PM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: Pyro7480

He is basically saying, "Don't forget what I told you". How does that detract from the glory and perfection and completeness of the Scriptures?


29 posted on 08/12/2004 12:07:28 PM PDT by biblewonk (And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.)
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To: biblewonk

It doesn't detract from Scripture. It detracts from the argument that the truth of the Church is contained exclusively in the Scripture.


30 posted on 08/12/2004 12:13:48 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Pyro7480; biblewonk
The Scripture verses I am quoting basically refute your sola scriptura approach.

hang on sport - weve asked you to support it Scripturally - dont turn it around to a position you suppose we have taken.

By what means was her immaculate conception and exemption from original sin made known to believers?

Im trying to be generous here

31 posted on 08/12/2004 12:14:26 PM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: Revelation 911

I know what trap you have set for me, and I'm not going to fall for the bait.


32 posted on 08/12/2004 12:17:45 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Pyro7480; Revelation 911
...by denying the means He used to come into the world.

I don't "deny" Mary, who was "highly-favored" by God and "blessed among women." Elizabeth was "highly-favored" by God also as the mother of John the Baptist.

I don't believe it's Scripturally-sound to elevate any human being above the rest of humanity. We are all like Lazarus -- fallen, dead sinners in need of a Redeemer.

Salvation is God's gift of grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, unmerited by any of us, but known to God from before the foundation of the world.

Thus we believers, you and I, through nothing in ourselves, but only by the will of God, are "blessed" among men and women.

33 posted on 08/12/2004 12:18:37 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (Hey, RNC! Get Bob Dylan to sing "Saving Grace" at the Convention!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
I don't believe it's Scripturally-sound to elevate any human being above the rest of humanity.

You do think Jesus is true God and true man? He is a human being, and he is above the rest of humanity.

34 posted on 08/12/2004 12:20:40 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Pyro7480
I know what trap you have set for me, and I'm not going to fall for the bait.

no such trap - I promise - rather Im trying to figure out where this notion comes from

Please dont suppose to know my heart

If it didnt come Scripturally, was it a Papal decree or what ?

35 posted on 08/12/2004 12:25:37 PM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: Pyro7480
It doesn't detract from Scripture. It detracts from the argument that the truth of the Church is contained exclusively in the Scripture.

Not without:
A. Knowing what Paul said to them, which we don't.
#2. Knowing that he said something to them that is important doctrinally but not contained in the Scriptures, which we also don't.

#3. I can think of no place in the bible where it suggests there is some important doctrine that is held by the church and not contained in the bible.

36 posted on 08/12/2004 12:31:22 PM PDT by biblewonk (And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.)
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To: Revelation 911

The Immaculate Conception of Mary

by Dr. Robert Schihl

The constant faith (tradition: paradosis) of the Church attests to the belief in the special preparation of the holiness of the person of Mary to bear in her body the most holy person of the Son of God.

Church Fathers:

  • implicitly found in the Fathers of the Church in the parallelism between Eve and Mary (Irenaeus, Lyons, 140? - 202?);
  • Found in the more general terms about Mary: "holy", "innocent", "most pure", "intact", "immaculate" (Irenaeus, Lyons, 140?-202?; Ephraem, Syria, 306-373; Ambrose, Milan, 373-397);
  • Explicit language: Mary - free from original sin (Augustine, Hippo, 395-430 to Anselm, Normandy, 1033-1109);

Eastern Church:

  • celebrated a Feast of the Conception of Mary in the 8th to the 9th Century;

Western Church:

  • celebrated a Feast of the Conception of Mary in the 12th Century;
  • A record of the feast in the 11th Century in Great Britain; in the 12th Century in Normandy;
  • Record in many churches of a Feast of the Conception of Mary in France, Germany, Italy and Spain in the 12th Century (Bernard, Clairvaux, 1090-1153);

14th Century:

  • was noted for the opposition to the Immaculate Conception from some of the great doctors of scholasticism. The celebration of the feast was not denied though. The difficulty arose from the meaning of the universal redemption through Christ.

15th Century:

  • Franciscan theologians solved the difficulty--Christ, the most perfect mediator, preserved Mary from original sin by an equally perfect act of healing. Duns Scotus (Scotland, 1266-1308) explained that the Immaculate Conception came through God's application of the grace of Christ beforehand.

From 15th Century:

  • the Feast was universally celebrated; and christian piety introduced an oath to defend the belief in the Immaculate Conception to be taken not only by Religious, but also by non-Religious and at the Universities (e.g., Paris, 1497; Cologne, 1499; Vienna, 1501, etc.)

1854, Pope Pius IX, infallibly defined, ex cathedra:

  • "The Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, and in view of the foreseen merits of Jesus Christ, the savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin."

37 posted on 08/12/2004 12:32:56 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: biblewonk
I can think of no place in the bible where it suggests there is some important doctrine that is held by the church and not contained in the bible.

I can think of at least one: the doctrine of the Trinity. Yes, Jesus commissions His apostles to "baptize in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," but nowhere does it say "God is a Holy Trinity."

38 posted on 08/12/2004 12:35:15 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Pyro7480
I can think of at least one: the doctrine of the Trinity. Yes, Jesus commissions His apostles to "baptize in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," but nowhere does it say "God is a Holy Trinity."

No, the word trinity is not in the bible, but the concept is all over the bible.

39 posted on 08/12/2004 12:40:26 PM PDT by biblewonk (And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.)
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To: biblewonk

Yup, the first one I can think of is the three "men" visiting Abram and Sarai.


40 posted on 08/12/2004 12:41:30 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Pyro7480

Or the "us" earlier Genesis.


41 posted on 08/12/2004 12:43:05 PM PDT by biblewonk (And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.)
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To: Pyro7480

But the real issue is that any attempt to bring other doctrines into Christianity that are not from scripture is not justifiable. Any system that attempts to do that is not to be trusted. Please leave the RCC. Thank You.


42 posted on 08/12/2004 12:44:40 PM PDT by biblewonk (And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.)
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To: Pyro7480; Revelation 911
Let me rephrase that for clarification:

"I don't believe it's Scripturally-sound to elevate any human being (excluding Jesus Christ, who in addition to being a man is the third and equal member of the holy Trinity; God incarnate; savior of the Elect, ordained by God from before the foundation of the world) above the rest of humanity."

And yes, I do think it's possible that Jesus Christ, God incarnate, can and was born of a human woman. God's miracles know no bounds.

By that fact, we, like Mary and Elizabeth and Joseph and Augustine and Mother Teresa and you and me, are fortunate indeed.
43 posted on 08/12/2004 12:45:23 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (Hey, RNC! Get Bob Dylan to sing "Saving Grace" at the Convention!)
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To: biblewonk
Please leave the RCC. Thank You

Nope, not going to happen. As I age (I'm only 24), I'm becoming more traditional.

44 posted on 08/12/2004 12:46:55 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Convert from ECUSA

Memo to self: Well, at least this post didn't end up with Catholics going at each other hammer and tongs! In my short time at the FR religion forum, that must be a first!


45 posted on 08/12/2004 12:47:30 PM PDT by Convert from ECUSA (tired of shucking and jiving)
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To: Pyro7480; biblewonk; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Revelation 911
Read some Calvin and Augustine and R.C. Sproul and John Owen. Even if it doesn't persuade you, you'll understand where the Reformed are coming from.


IMO, RCs are well-versed in their own religion, but sadly unfamiliar with Protestantism.


As an example, I watched "Kill Bill-2" last night. In the wedding scene, we have a minister and his wife presiding over the ceremony. However, on the wall is a large crucifix.


Now, any Protestant knows that's just not going to happen in ANY Baptist or Pentecostal church, which this obviously was.


Just as obviously, Tarantino is/was a Roman Catholic and assumes EVERY Christian church has a crucifix on the wall.


FYI, the empty cross is preferred in Protestant churches because it signifies Christ's Resurrection. His work has been accomplished. Our salvation is set. It truly is "finished." The empty cross is the saving cross. Christ's sacrifice was real; He is risen. Thank you, God.


If you're interested, here's a wonderful site with lots of info:

http://www.monergism.com
46 posted on 08/12/2004 1:07:54 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (Hey, RNC! Get Bob Dylan to sing "Saving Grace" at the Convention!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
IMO, RCs are well-versed in their own religion, but sadly unfamiliar with Protestantism.

I'm afraid I know it too well. And Augustine, whom you name, believed in the Immaculate Conception.

47 posted on 08/12/2004 1:13:03 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: conservonator

I see. Sort of like the meaning of "is"


48 posted on 08/12/2004 1:31:27 PM PDT by william clark
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To: biblewonk

Funny how Calvin, Luther and Zwingli were all devoted to the Blessed Mother only to have their followers chuck their teachings some four centuries later.


49 posted on 08/12/2004 1:39:26 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: william clark

No


50 posted on 08/12/2004 1:40:28 PM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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