The Fourth Glorious Mystery

Christ or Chaos ^ | August 11, 2004 | Thomas A. Droleskey

[biblewonk]

I guess I'm not seeing the contradiction. One verse is about Paul's authority and the other is about the inspiration of the scriptures. Do you know what ordinances Paul is talking about? Do you suppose he told them everything that he wrote in all of the epistles or maybe he told them not come to church drunk?

[Pyro7480]

The Scripture verses I am quoting basically refute your sola scriptura approach.

[william clark]

Our Lady was preserved from all stain of sin from the first moment of her conception in her mothers’s womb. She had a perfect human nature, that of Adam and Eve before their fall from grace in the Garden of Eden.

Then I guess I'd better take the Liquid Paper to that scripture that says "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

[biblewonk]

How so?

[Convert from ECUSA]

Thanks for posting the picture.

[Pyro7480]

Paul, the most important of the early missionaries, doesn't say "...keep the (unwritten) Scriptures as I have delivered them to you." He says, "...keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you" (1 Corin. 11:2).

[Arguss]

"So, original sin doesnt apply to Mary? - Can you point me to the Scriptural basis for that please"

Angel Gabriel: Hail Mary, full of Grace

Magnificat: "My soul doth magnify the Lord"

[conservonator]

Then I guess I'd better take the Liquid Paper to that scripture that says "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

That or maybe have a better understanding of the word all and all

[biblewonk]

He is basically saying, "Don't forget what I told you". How does that detract from the glory and perfection and completeness of the Scriptures?

[Pyro7480]

It doesn't detract from Scripture. It detracts from the argument that the truth of the Church is contained exclusively in the Scripture.

[Revelation 911]

The Scripture verses I am quoting basically refute your sola scriptura approach.

hang on sport - weve asked you to support it Scripturally - dont turn it around to a position you suppose we have taken.

By what means was her immaculate conception and exemption from original sin made known to believers?

Im trying to be generous here

[Pyro7480]

I know what trap you have set for me, and I'm not going to fall for the bait.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

...by denying the means He used to come into the world.

I don't "deny" Mary, who was "highly-favored" by God and "blessed among women." Elizabeth was "highly-favored" by God also as the mother of John the Baptist.

I don't believe it's Scripturally-sound to elevate any human being above the rest of humanity. We are all like Lazarus -- fallen, dead sinners in need of a Redeemer.

Salvation is God's gift of grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, unmerited by any of us, but known to God from before the foundation of the world.

Thus we believers, you and I, through nothing in ourselves, but only by the will of God, are "blessed" among men and women.

[Pyro7480]

I don't believe it's Scripturally-sound to elevate any human being above the rest of humanity.

You do think Jesus is true God and true man? He is a human being, and he is above the rest of humanity.

[Revelation 911]

I know what trap you have set for me, and I'm not going to fall for the bait.

no such trap - I promise - rather Im trying to figure out where this notion comes from

Please dont suppose to know my heart

If it didnt come Scripturally, was it a Papal decree or what ?

[biblewonk]

It doesn't detract from Scripture. It detracts from the argument that the truth of the Church is contained exclusively in the Scripture.

Not without:
A. Knowing what Paul said to them, which we don't.
#2. Knowing that he said something to them that is important doctrinally but not contained in the Scriptures, which we also don't.

#3. I can think of no place in the bible where it suggests there is some important doctrine that is held by the church and not contained in the bible.

[Pyro7480]

The Immaculate Conception of Mary

by Dr. Robert Schihl

The constant faith (tradition: paradosis) of the Church attests to the belief in the special preparation of the holiness of the person of Mary to bear in her body the most holy person of the Son of God.

Church Fathers:

• implicitly found in the Fathers of the Church in the parallelism between Eve and Mary (Irenaeus, Lyons, 140? - 202?);
• Found in the more general terms about Mary: "holy", "innocent", "most pure", "intact", "immaculate" (Irenaeus, Lyons, 140?-202?; Ephraem, Syria, 306-373; Ambrose, Milan, 373-397);
• Explicit language: Mary - free from original sin (Augustine, Hippo, 395-430 to Anselm, Normandy, 1033-1109);

Eastern Church:

• celebrated a Feast of the Conception of Mary in the 8th to the 9th Century;

Western Church:

• celebrated a Feast of the Conception of Mary in the 12th Century;
• A record of the feast in the 11th Century in Great Britain; in the 12th Century in Normandy;
• Record in many churches of a Feast of the Conception of Mary in France, Germany, Italy and Spain in the 12th Century (Bernard, Clairvaux, 1090-1153);

14th Century:

• was noted for the opposition to the Immaculate Conception from some of the great doctors of scholasticism. The celebration of the feast was not denied though. The difficulty arose from the meaning of the universal redemption through Christ.

15th Century:

• Franciscan theologians solved the difficulty--Christ, the most perfect mediator, preserved Mary from original sin by an equally perfect act of healing. Duns Scotus (Scotland, 1266-1308) explained that the Immaculate Conception came through God's application of the grace of Christ beforehand.

From 15th Century:

• the Feast was universally celebrated; and christian piety introduced an oath to defend the belief in the Immaculate Conception to be taken not only by Religious, but also by non-Religious and at the Universities (e.g., Paris, 1497; Cologne, 1499; Vienna, 1501, etc.)

1854, Pope Pius IX, infallibly defined, ex cathedra:

• "The Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, and in view of the foreseen merits of Jesus Christ, the savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin."

[Pyro7480]

I can think of no place in the bible where it suggests there is some important doctrine that is held by the church and not contained in the bible.

I can think of at least one: the doctrine of the Trinity. Yes, Jesus commissions His apostles to "baptize in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," but nowhere does it say "God is a Holy Trinity."

[biblewonk]

I can think of at least one: the doctrine of the Trinity. Yes, Jesus commissions His apostles to "baptize in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," but nowhere does it say "God is a Holy Trinity."

No, the word trinity is not in the bible, but the concept is all over the bible.

[Pyro7480]

Yup, the first one I can think of is the three "men" visiting Abram and Sarai.