The Fourth Glorious Mystery

Christ or Chaos ^ | August 11, 2004 | Thomas A. Droleskey

[Lexinom]

Was not Mary also born to sinful parents? And their parents? Where would one draw the line?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Excellent observation. I never thought of it in those terms before.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Have a good time... Watch out for any wizards and tin men. ~~ irishtenor

Sheesh... no kidding.

I thought we might be in for a real show here, but this alleged "Hurricane" is turning into a complete disappointment.

Forecast tomorrow calls for 80-mile-an-hour winds at most. Being from Oklahoma tornado country, that barely qualifies as a stiff breeze.

In other words, never mind... I'll probably sleep through the whole shebang.

Best, OP

[Revelation 911]

clarify something for me pyro - was she concieved in the normal manner - or was she concieved as Christ was concieved?

[sheltonmac]

OP will be incommunicado a few days until Charley blows through the Keys.

Our prayers are with you.

[Stubborn]

So, original sin doesnt apply to Mary? - Can you point me to the Scriptural basis for that please Thats an easy one if you stop to consider a few things. Jesus was always God, even while in His Mother's womb right? As God, not even for a nano-moment could any trace of sin be found in Him. If Mary was born with the stain of original sin, there would have been some impurity from that stain that would have had to flow right through God's veins. But we know that, in God, there never was or ever will be anything that is with stain of sin, how could Her blood, their hearts, Her tabernacle and their souls be anything BUT immaculate? If you cannot agree with the above, consider this: How about just prior to His conception. The Holy Spirit had some type of personal and intimate union with Her in order for Her to be conceived of the Holy Spirit, so might it not make sense that if indeed She ever even was immaculate, that it would have had to happen sometime before the moment of Jesus' conception? Otherwise, we would be saying that it was ok for the Holy Spirit to expose Himself to something that was not spotless albeit it were for but an instant, but not for Jesus who dwelled within Her for 9 months. She was spotless before She was conceived of the Holy Spirit. Now, from the instant She was conceived in her mother's womb, She was spared this sin of Adam. Every person that is born into this world has the sin of Adam handed down to them by their parents. THATS the way this sin is procured by the whole human race because thats the way God dictated it. There is no other way to get Origianl Sin. For God's purpose and by His will, God spared Mary of this sin due to the impending position that She was to partake of later in life, hence, any child, conceived of the Holy Spirit that She would have bore, would not have had the necessary ingredient to be born in original sin because She was not born in original sin, and therefore had no stain or effects of it--- and therefore the sin itself nor its concupiscence could be handed down to Her child. Aside from all that, we all love our mothers. If you could create your mother, you would want to make her as lovely and as perfect as you could. Well, Jesus could and DID create his mother. He did indeed make her perfect and without any stain of sin. And Jesus never for once second allowed his mortal enemy, the devil, to have dominion over his beloved mother.

[Stubborn]

Thought you might enjoy this. Its not something that we normally hear anymore but today is the Feast of The Death of Our Lady (58). This feast is more lovingly called “the Dormition” (the Sleep) of Our Lady. For although she really and truly died, Mary’s death lasted for only forty hours, the same length of time as Our Lord’s death. Then, with her body incorrupt, Mary was restored to life and was assumed, body and soul, into Heaven. The Apostles, with the exception of Saint James who had died, and of Saint Thomas who was brought later, were miraculously transported from the parts of the world where they were preaching to attend the death of Our Lady in Jerusalem, when she gave up her immaculate and spotless soul to God. Saint Timothy, Saint Denis the Areopagite and Saint Hierotheus, his friend, were also brought miraculously to Our Lady’s bedside. Jesus Himself came down from Heaven to assist at Our Lady’s death. Just before Mary died, Jesus gave her the Blessed Eucharist, the Body and Blood which she had given to Him when she conceived Him at Nazareth. Our Lady was buried reverently by the Apostles at the foot of the Mount of Olives, just below the place where Our Lord had sweat blood on the eve off his Passion. It was not far from the grave where Saint Lazarus had been buried and was raised from the dead by Jesus. Mary’s soul, during the interval when her virginal body lay dead, was able to visit the souls in Purgatory so as to comfort and to release them, just as Our Lord’s soul, during the three days He lay dead, went to comfort the souls in the Limbo of the Just. Our Lady was seventy-two years old when she died.

[biblewonk]

Nope, not going to happen. As I age (I'm only 24), I'm becoming more traditional.

My wish for you is that you become scriptural and put away the "traditions of men".

[biblewonk]

Funny how Calvin, Luther and Zwingli were all devoted to the Blessed Mother only to have their followers chuck their teachings some four centuries later.

I wish you could drop some verses instead of droping names. I don't remember reading anything in the bible from Calvin, Luther or Zwingli. Kind of like I don't remember reading anything in the bible about emaculate conception, assumption/assention which ever one applies to Mary, Dispensitrix of all Graces, Mother of the church, Queen of heaven. Actually the Queen of heaven is in the bible.

[Convert from ECUSA]

Thanks, Stubborn. I appreciate the post!

[Pyro7480]

She was conceived in the "normal" matter, in the sense that she has one human father, whose name is Joachim, and one mother, whose name is Ann. However, through the power of God (through whom all things are possible), she was spared the stain of original sin.

[Pyro7480]

You see, this is another thing where our theologies differ. Therer is a difference between Sacred Tradition, which is inspired by the Holy Ghost, and the "traditions of men," such as liturgical clothing.

[Pyro7480]

See my post 71.

[topcat54]

"So, original sin doesnt apply to Mary? - Can you point me to the Scriptural basis for that please"

Angel Gabriel: Hail Mary, full of Grace

"And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people."

And so I take it Stephen was also immaculately conceived.

[biblewonk]

You see, this is another thing where our theologies differ. Therer is a difference between Sacred Tradition, which is inspired by the Holy Ghost, and the "traditions of men," such as liturgical clothing.

There would have to be wouldn't there. It's called damage control.

[Pyro7480]

Whatever...

[topcat54]

It's called typology. When God ordered the Ark of the Covenant to be made, which contained the written Word of God, He ordered that it by made of pure materials.

The greatest effort in typological interpretation by Mr. Madrid comes in his attempt to parallel the Ark of the Covenant and Mary. The first parallel he draws has to do with the fact that God took such great pains to make sure the Ark was properly constructed. He says,

    God wanted the ark to be as perfect and unblemished as humanly 
    possible so it would be worthy of the honor of bearing the 
    written Word of God.  How much more so would God want Mary, the 
    ark of the new covenant, to be perfect and unblemished since she 
    would carry within her womb the Word of God in flesh.

Does this kind of interpretation bear the weight of investigation? While we admit the force such things carry with those who already accept these doctrine, we point out that there is no way to test the interpretation. We can easily point out absurdities to which the parallel can be pushed--for example, must Mary have been stolen by God's enemies for a time, so that she could be brought back to the people of God with great rejoicing? Who was Mary's Uzzah (2 Samuel 6:3-8)? Madrid draws a further parallel between the three months the ark was with Obededom and the three months Mary was with Elizabeth. What, then, is the parallel with David's action of sacrificing a bull and a fattened calf when those who were carrying the ark had taken six steps (2 Samuel 6:13)? See, Mr. Madrid feels free to pick and choose what aspects of Mary's life he wishes to parallel in the ark, and which he does not--there are no rules in this kind of interpretation, and it can lead to just about any conclusion. Pat seems to recognize at least some of this, for he says,

    Granted, none of these verses "proves" Mary's Immaculate 
    Conception, but they all point to it.  After all, the Bible 
    nowhere says Mary committed any sin or languished under original 
    sin.  As far as explicit statements are concerned, the Bible is 
    silent on most of the issue, yet all the biblical evidence 
    supports the Catholic teaching.

We are left wondering at Mr. Madrid's definition of "biblical evidence," but we are glad to see that he recognizes that all that has come before does not "prove" the Immaculate Conception. One will believe that doctrine only if one believes that the Roman Catholic Church is infallible and has an authority that does not need Scriptural basis. It seems that, sadly, Mr. Madrid accepts Rome's claims.

A Biblical Basis for the "Immaculate Conception"?

[HarleyD]

Jesus' response to the first Catholic:

"While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it." Luke 11:27-28

Blessings to you OP in this stormy weather.

[sr4402]

Mary is the Greatest Intecessor!!!

Sorry that title is reserved for Christ alone:

Romans 8:34; "who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

This verse clearly teaches that Christ is the greatest intercessor, by the virtue of his death on the cross and the fact that he is at the "right hand of God", the position of power.

Romans 8:26-27 clearly shows that the Holy Spirit also intercedes for the beleiver. So the path is - Believer -> Holy Spirit -> Christ -> The Father.

I think what is happening here is to elevate Mary to the position of God... i.e. Greatest Intercessor - Sinless - forgiving sins. In other words deifying Mary, rather than seeing her as an exceptional believer which the scripture clearly indicates.

If Mary is sinless, and forgives sins, then there is no need for Christ's death on the cross and that would be another way to heaven bypassing Christ's attonment.

But Christ said (John 10:1) "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber." and (John 10:9,10) I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly."

God alone is worthy of our worship. Christ alone is worthy for redeeming us of our sins and giving Eternal and abundant life to the believers . The Spirit alone is worthy for interceding on our behalf, and the Father alone is worthy above all.

If, Mary, were looking down from heaven above, and I believe she is, she would say to you all to worship God alone and not her. For she says "and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior" Luke 1:47.

[Stubborn]

I think what is happening here is to elevate Mary to the position of God... i.e. Greatest Intercessor - Sinless - forgiving sins. In other words deifying Mary, rather than seeing her as an exceptional believer which the scripture clearly indicates. Thats a typical misunderstanding that all non catholics have and in no way reflects what catholics believe.

No offence intended but that is actually quite absurd.