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Christians Divided on the Rapture Hope or Hoax?
Gospel.com ^

Posted on 09/26/2004 9:00:35 AM PDT by missyme

The main evidence for a two-part return of Christ revolves around (1) God's distinct plans for Israel and the church and (2) prophecies that describe the time of Christ's return as being both knowable and unknowable.

The reasoning might seem to be a little involved at points, but the main point to keep in mind is that Scripture teaches us to be always ready for the Lord's return.

The Distinction Between Israel and the Church. Basic to this discussion is our belief that the first of these two returns is for the rescue and removal of the church (1 Cor. 15:51-53; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 5:9).

The second relates to God's plan for Israel (Ezek. 36:16-38; Jer. 23:5-6; Rev. 19:11-21). Both have different places in God's prophetic program.

Even though both share a common spiritual ancestry that can be traced back to the faith of Abraham (Gal. 3:7), they have different places in God's world plan. Israel represents a nation with whom God has made very earth-centered and geographically related promises (Is. 2:1-6; Ezek. 36--37).

The church, on the other hand, is a multinational organism made up of all true believers in Christ--Jew or Gentile.

The church is at the center of God's program until "the fullness of the Gentiles" is fulfilled (Rom. 11:25) and has been given a hope that is to be realized more in heaven than on earth (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

The distinction between Israel and the church is basic to understanding prophecy. Many have called it the key to unlocking what the Bible says about the future.

When the two are kept distinct, many prophetic details fall into place. Then it becomes evident that some predictions refer to the Lord's return for the church, while others relate to His return as the King and Deliverer of Israel.

This provides an explanation for why the church is not specifically referred to in most of the book of Revelation. Revelation 6--18 (which describes the "great tribulation" to which Jesus alluded in Matthew 24:15-28) never mentions the church.

While an argument from silence is not the strongest, it does seem significant. It gives credence to the idea that Christ will have returned to remove the church prior to all of those endtime events related to the restoration and salvation of the nation of Israel, called the "time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7).

The church will already be with her Lord and will come with Him when He returns to save Israel and set up His promised earthly kingdom.

That brings us to a second important reason for being ready for a two-part return of Christ. The teaching of the Bible includes (a) prophecies of dramatic events that will occur just prior to the Lord's second coming to earth and (b) predictions of another coming at a time that is not expected.

It seems reasonable to resolve this apparent contradiction by seeing them as describing two different phases of the Lord's return.

If the Lord were to return today, all of your worst problems and all of your deepest pleasures would suddenly look entirely different. For that reason, let's take a closer look at what the Bible has to say about (1) the any-moment return for the church and (2) the final presignaled event climaxing the worst trouble the world has ever seen.

The Distinction Between an Any-Moment and a Presignaled Return. In the Olivet Discourse, delivered only shortly before His crucifixion, Jesus answered questions raised by His disciples after He had predicted the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem. They asked, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3).

Notice that the disciples' question has three parts: (1) When? (2) What will be the signs of Christ's coming? (3) What will be the signs of the end of the age? As we read our Lord's answer, we find that He began with the sign part of the question. He dealt with the signs of His coming that will alert all generations (vv.3-14), the signs of the end of the age related to Israel (vv.15-35), and the "when" or time question related to His unannounced coming for the church (vv.36-51).

The signs of His coming--alerting all generations (vv.3-14). The Lord began by describing seven events that would occur before His return. They will be signs of His coming because their purpose will be to remind His children throughout the age, saying, "Jesus is coming again." Our Lord talked about false christs (v.5), wars and rumors of wars (v.6), famines (v.7), pestilences and earthquakes (v.7), persecution (v.9), defections from the faith (vv.10-13), and worldwide preaching of the gospel (v.14).

They knew that according to Daniel 9:24-27 a hostile Gentile ruler would someday desecrate their temple and initiate horrendous persecution. While Luke 21:20-24 contains some elements that were partially fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70, Matthew 24:15-31 focuses on the endtime. There will be:

Enough fear to drive the Jews to the hills (vv.16-18). Unparalleled trouble and woe (vv.19-20). Great tribulation that would threaten all life if the days were not shortened (vv.21-22). False christs and prophets (vv.23-26).

Startling celestial signs and the visible descent of the Son of Man "with power and great glory" (vv.29-31). These will be the signs that the end of the age is near. Just as the appearing of buds on trees signals the soon onset of the summer season, so do these signs show "that it is near, at the very doors" (v.33). In fact, the generation that sees the beginning of these signs (the desecration of the Jewish temple depicted in verse 15) will not pass off the scene before the Lord has returned (v.34).


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KEYWORDS: rapture
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1 posted on 09/26/2004 9:00:36 AM PDT by missyme
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To: missyme

2 posted on 09/26/2004 9:02:23 AM PDT by missyme (<imgsrc=http://www.cat-domain.com/cats_long/yoni-rmans.jpg>)
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To: missyme

NOT a hoax.


3 posted on 09/26/2004 9:05:33 AM PDT by BenLurkin (We have low inflation and and low unemployment.)
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To: BenLurkin

I agree! it takes alot of reading and understanding but your right it's all in the Holy Bible this will take place....


4 posted on 09/26/2004 9:07:19 AM PDT by missyme (<imgsrc=http://www.cat-domain.com/cats_long/yoni-rmans.jpg>)
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To: ladyinred; topcat54; TheGeezer; Quix; Ichneumon; stuartcr; scottro; americanmother; ...

The Bible does state that the 2nd Coming of Christ happens after believers are raptured and it does make perfect sense scriptually.


5 posted on 09/26/2004 9:31:22 AM PDT by missyme (<imgsrc=http://www.cat-domain.com/cats_long/yoni-rmans.jpg>)
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To: missyme
Terribly murky issue. As I understand it, the argument for the rapture rests on the belief that a certain set of geopolitical events (the events of the Tribulation) must have happened before the Second Coming is to occur, but we are still instructed to expect the Second Coming at any moment. The only way to reconcile these two teachings is to split the Second Coming into two parts, a secret "Rapture" of the believers, followed (as is often taught) seven years later by the final public Second Coming of Jesus in judgement.

My take on this: The elaborate geopolitical scenarios of the End Times (popularized by Hal Lindsey and Tim La Haye and others) are speculations built upon eccentric readings of highly symbolic passages in Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation. Mistakes are made, such as reading the Hebrew "Ros" (which merely means "prince") as Russia.

These scenarios are also based in part on the "Little Apocalypse" of Matthew 24. I believe a good case has been made that these prophecies of Christ are of the destruction of the Temple and of Israel; these were fulfilled in the life time of his listeners -- as he said they would.

Also, the Church fathers debated long and hard before deciding to include Revelation in the Canon, and authorities such as Martin Luther have questioned whether Revelation should remain in the Scriptures. (This is worth contemplating if you believe that the New Testament came to us as a single document from God, under the doctrine of "plenary verbal inspiration": those Catholic apologists who remind Evangelicals that the Roman Catholic Church produced the Canon have a point.)

So I believe there is no elaborate set of geopolitical events that must still happen before the Second Coming; so there is no reason to divide the Second Coming into two parts. I believe that Scriptures and tradition are plain: The return of Jesus in judgement will be a single public event, and will involve the resurrection of saints who have "gone to sleep" as well as the catching up of those saints who are alive.

6 posted on 09/26/2004 9:55:38 AM PDT by megatherium
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To: megatherium

Then Explain Ezekiel? The final battle agaisnt Israel?
If Israel was attacked today by the Middle East, the USA would be right there in a Battle of all Battles, but we are not there because the USA is made up of so many Christians there in no USA to defend Israel....


7 posted on 09/26/2004 10:00:48 AM PDT by missyme (<imgsrc=http://www.cat-domain.com/cats_long/yoni-rmans.jpg>)
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To: megatherium
Actually there is another way to resolve the 'problem' between the Tribulation and the unexpected return of Christ: the passages describing the Tribulation have been fit onto their current time by believers over and over---the abomination of the desolation was the pagan temple set up when the Romans destroyed the second, was the al-Aqsa Mosque when it was first built, etc., the wars, earthquakes, . . .in various places. . .well isn't that all of history. The Black Death fit the description of the plagues of the end-times, etc. Every time Christians have tried to fit the end-time prophecies to their own time and been wrong. Simply put, we won't know when the fit between a time of evil and the prophecies of the Tribulation are exact enough that we know Christ is coming again. One of the Fathers of the Church warned against thinking too much about the End-Times, to concentrate instead on one's own repentence. Good advice--whether the Tribulation has begun, will start next week, or in two millenia, you and I could face our particular judgement this afternoon.

The Church (by which I mean the Holy Orthodox Apostolic and Catholic Church, but if you want, rewind to the time when what constituted the Church was not a matter of dispute--we still have writings) never interpreted the Scriptural passages used to support 'the rapture' as anything other than a description of the experience of those alive when the General Resurrection takes place at Our Lord's Second and Glorious Advent. The earliest writers who introduced the idea of a "rapture" before or during the Tribulation were 19th century protestants. There is no warrant for such a reading in Orthodox, Latin, Nestorian, Monophysite or Reformation-era protestant readings of Scripture. The only way it can be supported is the protestant every-man-his-own-infallibe-pope approach to the Holy Scriptures.

8 posted on 09/26/2004 10:32:13 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was)
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To: missyme
When is the last trump in revelation? That is when the day of the lord begins and when the rapture of the church is.

Jesus does not come half way makes a u-turn and then comes again. The rapture is at the same time as the second advent of Christ.

IMHO-Pre wrath post trib

9 posted on 09/26/2004 10:51:45 AM PDT by kansas_goat_roper (GOAT ROPERS NEED LOVE TOO....UP AGAINST THE WALL REDNECK MOTHERS)
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To: missyme
The Bible does state that the 2nd Coming of Christ happens after believers are raptured and it does make perfect sense scriptually.

Do you have any verses that demonstrate this?

10 posted on 09/26/2004 2:29:05 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54

Cor. 15:51-53; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 5:9)

The second relates to God's plan for Israel (Ezek. 36:16-38; Jer. 23:5-6; Rev. 19:11-21).


11 posted on 09/26/2004 2:39:27 PM PDT by missyme (<imgsrc=http://www.cat-domain.com/cats_long/yoni-rmans.jpg>)
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To: missyme
The word "rapture" itself is not biblical. It was not invented until the late 19th century. I use it only for the sake of discussion instead of the more cumbersome term "taken up", which is more accurate, biblically.

The bible does not say that after believers are taken up, that Jesus will not come immediately to judge the world, that there will be a tribulation and then another return of Jesus. The idea that there will be multiple returns of Jesus is what is novel and not an original teaching of the church.

The bible is fairly clear that when Jesus returns faithful will be taken up to praise Him - as it were to greet Him - as He returns to judge the world and end it with the separation of the goat and sheep. His return occurs at the time of the rapture.

12 posted on 09/26/2004 3:48:55 PM PDT by TheGeezer
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To: TheGeezer

Okay so then the believers are not on earth to witness the final battle? I did not ever think Christians would be gone for years while people are living life here until the 2nd coming of Christ but the rapture comes and Jesus reigns in on earth, is this your understanding


13 posted on 09/26/2004 3:51:34 PM PDT by missyme (<imgsrc=http://www.cat-domain.com/cats_long/yoni-rmans.jpg>)
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To: missyme
Believers are on earth until Jesus returns to end the world with the final judgment. When He returns for that judgment, they will be taken up to greet Him, to praise Him with joy.

The "rapture" will occur at the end of the world.

14 posted on 09/26/2004 4:20:40 PM PDT by TheGeezer
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To: TheGeezer

And that is what I believe...But can you tell me how your decifer the USA not mentioned in the final Battle when all armies come agaisnt Israel?


15 posted on 09/26/2004 4:24:42 PM PDT by missyme (<imgsrc=http://www.cat-domain.com/cats_long/yoni-rmans.jpg>)
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To: missyme

The U.S. is not the Chosen People. How the Lord may use us is something we do not know. I am not concerned: Jesus will care for His brothers and sisters.


16 posted on 09/26/2004 4:35:42 PM PDT by TheGeezer
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To: missyme
Cor. 15:51-53; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 5:9)

The second relates to God's plan for Israel (Ezek. 36:16-38; Jer. 23:5-6; Rev. 19:11-21).

Can you be more specific? I can't anything in these verses that indicates there is a 2nd coming some time after the rapture.

17 posted on 09/26/2004 6:37:46 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: missyme
read later -

I believe in the Rapture of the Church, the Great Tribulation for the purification of Israel, and the triumphal Second Coming of Christ!

18 posted on 09/26/2004 10:26:34 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Secularization of America is happening)
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To: missyme

A very interesting post. You are some very informed persons.


19 posted on 09/26/2004 10:35:43 PM PDT by americanmother (Thessalonians chapter 2)
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To: missyme

You know it when you see it. Blessed are they that know without seeing and blessed are those that see without knowing.


20 posted on 09/26/2004 10:38:50 PM PDT by OrionD.Hunter (98.6 Fahrenheit)
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