Posted on 09/28/2004 12:20:25 AM PDT by NJ Neocon
At first it looked like whacked out propaganda - but the best lies always have truth to them.
I need help sorting the truth from un-truth.
I need help sorting the truth from un-truth.
Went from devout Catholic12 years ago, to agnostic, to semi-agnostic Methodist.
I have children now and felt a keen desire to get back to Church and to God and felt a pull towards Catholicism again and my daughter is in Catholic school now as a result of my desire to give her the upbringing I had.
But the more I become re-immersed in the Church, the more I begin to question things I took for granted as truths my whole Catholic life – BUT which I have not thought of since my separation from the Church 12 years ago, and now think of as the come up, like each day when I see the trappings of Catholicism picking my daughter up from school.
I used to get incensed at anti-Catholic screeds at Lucianne.com and here at Freep during my brief time here. I actually felt a great deal of hope and reassurance when I came across a Roman Catholic/Orthodox Catholic discussion this week (reassurance in my Catholic past and decision to try and return) but always, there were doubts.
Then I ran, quite by accident (ha ha…a sign maybe?) Upon the works of Jack Chick.
It seemed innocent enough – reading a post from the political blog “Armed & Dangerous” (http://www.ibiblio.org/esrblog/) on the dangers of “lowest common denominator/Fear tactic fundamentalism”. No I don’t know.
Help?
Nuts. Bonkers. Barking mad.... albeit in a "crazy like a fox", making millions off a schpiel only he can do as well as he does it, kinda way.
There's lots of sound, Biblical reasons to avoid Roman Catholicism.
Jack Chick ain't one of them.
Next question?
Accept Jesus (not Mary, or the saints) as your personal Savior. Read the Bible (King James). Go to a Bible-based church. Be happy!
Thanks.
I never looked to Mary for my salvation (or the Saints). No Catholic I ever knew did.
However, although I do honestly feel that there is an almost delibertae misunderstanding on this point by some Protestants, I must admit I have some newfound questions about Mary that I never had before.
None of them, though, deal in what I see as the "Myth" of Virgin worship.
google his website - hes kind of like the natl enquirer of evangelism....a real nuthook
Chick's most inflammatory anti-Catholic works are based on the testimony of "Alberto Romero" aka "Rivera", a con man with Fraud warrants dating from 1965 and 1969. Personally, I think that's all you need to "chew on", IMHO.
What "sound, Biblical reasons" do you have to avoid RC and does that count for Orthodoxy Catholicism and Anglican Catholicism as well?
Let's start with an obvious one -- Justification before God:
The Bible:
Ephesians 2:8-9 -- "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Romans 4:2-8 -- "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."
I dunno about the Anglo-Catholics, whose doctrines can run pretty close to Rome's within the broad stream of Anglicanism, but this criticism would not apply to the Eastern Orthodox -- from the joint declarations of the Pan-Orthodox/Lutheran World Federation Joint Commission, it's clear that their position is closer to that of the Lutherans**: that it is the True Faith which Justifies and not the Good Works, and that the Good Works which accompany True Faith unto Justification are "necessary for salvation" in the evidentiary sense (just as James really described, when you read his Epistle) that True Faith will necessarily produce Good Works as its fruit and manifestation, NOT in the additive sense of "Faith + racking up enough Good Works = Justification" mandated upon Roman Catholics by the purportedly "infallible" Council of Trent.
C. SALVATION: GRACE, JUSTIFICATION AND SYNERGY
5.) "Both Lutherans and Orthodox teach that divine grace operates universally and that God freely grants grace to all human beings. God's saving grace does not operate by necessity or in an irresistible manner, since human beings can reject it. Regarding the way in which salvation is appropriated by the believers, Lutherans, by teaching that justification and salvation are by grace alone through faith (sola gratia, sola fide), stress the absolute priority of divine grace in salvation. When they speak about saving faith they do not think of the dead faith which even the demons have (cf. James 2:19), but the faith which Abraham showed and which was reckoned to him as righteousness (cf. Gen. 15:6, Rom. 4:3,9). The Orthodox also affirm the absolute priority of divine grace. They underline that it is God's grace which enables our human will to conform to the divine will (cf. Phil 2:13) in the steps of Jesus praying, "not as I will but as You will" (Matt. 26:39), so that we may work out our salvation in fear and trembling (cf. Phil. 2:12). This is what the Orthodox mean by "synergy" (working together) of divine grace and the human will of the believer in the appropriation of the divine life in Christ. The understanding of synergy in salvation is helped by the fact that the human will in the one person of Christ was not abolished when the human nature was united in Him with the divine nature, according to the Christological decisions of the Ecumenical Councils. While Lutherans do not use the concept of synergy, they recognize the personal responsibility of the human being in the acceptance or refusal of divine grace through faith, and in the growth of faith and obedience to God. Lutherans and Orthodox both understand good works as the fruits and manifestations of the believer's faith and not as a means of salvation."
Yet this is the EXACT language which Rome has Accursed, and she hold Trent to be "Infallible".
In doing so, she has set herself against the teachings of the Lutherans, the Orthodox, and most importantly those of the Bible. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The point is technical, but of critical importance... and hopefully, I have managed to present the argument less luridly than our favorite "Krusty the Clown" comic theologian. ;-)
Best, OP
you know OP, I was expecing a "popcorn" moment - but you did that quite nicely actually
Well, I've had a lingering Flu, of late. I'm sure that's to blame.
I agree with GirlShortstop. Perhaps http://www.emmerich1.com/Imitation_of_Christ.htm will prove a good addition.
Does your local church have a program such as
"Catholics Can Come Home Again"
"Landings"
"Welcome Home, Catholics"
There are many others.
If you can, please participate in one of these programs -- they are great1
I can speak for the "Catholics Can Come Home Again". We have been doing it for two years now and probably presented it to over 50 people. Of those, probably a fourth have come back to the church. Really not bad statistics, even though I would like them to be better.
Sometimes it is a marriage or disollution of a marriage and annulment problems that keep a person away. Find a priest or pastoral associate or deacon who can help you in this area and take one step back to the church!
May God bless your journey.
Freepmail me if you have additional questions here.
BTW, welcome to FR!
**I never looked to Mary for my salvation (or the Saints). No Catholic I ever knew did.**
You are totally correct here. Many non-Catholics have misconceptions here. Catholics believe that Christ is the way, the truth and the light!
And Catholics do read the REAL Bible that the non-Catholics got the KJV from.
Another thing -- are you aware that Luther, Calvin and Zwingli accepted the Blessed Virgin Mary?
Do a google for Blessed Virgin Mary -- perpetual virginity and you will find their statements verifying this information.
**Truth and untruth? I would suggest trying Catholic Answers first.**
Excellent suggestion!
"It's a joke. When you give me that look, it's a joke." - Krusty
Read the Bible.
KJV
NIV
NASB
NKJV
DRV (Douay-Rheims. I got saved reading the DRV.)
All good translations.
Do avoid the TNIV,
The Message
The Living Bible
These 3 are NOT translations, they are publications loosely based on the Bible.
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