Posted on 10/14/2004 8:27:29 PM PDT by Salvation
SS. Yet not powerful enough to have a virgin give birth? What makes him "all powerful' to you? What evidence do you assign to your "god"
BTTT
I think many will find the simple truth that John 1:1-5 tells very difficult to accept, notwithstanding that it well accords with the physical picture of the universe being developed by contemporary science, particularly in the fields of math, physics, and cosmology as you note.
John tells us the universe had a beginning; and moreover, it had an ordered beginning, which implies a foreseen purpose, goal, or end. John comprehends the Word of God – the Son of God, the Logos, the Alpha and Omega – as not only the creative word/agent of the beginning, but also as the ordering word/ultimate principle that structures the evolutionary unfoldment of the universe (not to mention the human soul) in space and time.
There is at the very least a very strong analogy to the singularity of the “Big Bang” here. For whatever information was contained in the singularity, it was sufficient for the creation ex nihilo of space/time, matter/energy, and also for their respective and mutually governing laws, which human beings seem to have a unique facility for discovering in the passage of time.
At this point in the analysis, I suspect there are two main opposing points of view. First, that of the metaphysical naturalists, who set great store by the “accidental universe” theory, in which matter, via randomness, sui generis sets up its own laws that inevitably produce life. The second point of view, that of “doctrinal” (i.e., from the "sola scriptura" point of view) Christians, is perhaps equally unhappy with my interpretation of John. For it tends to see any “innovation” or extension of the “received” meaning of the Holy Scriptures as prima facia heretical.
To both camps – both IMHO similarly “hide-bound” -- I would simply say this: God gave man both the Holy Scriptures and the “book of His living universe” to us for study, in order that we may understand Him and His purpose, and thereby the natural order and our place in it – and also thereby, our place in the divine order.
It is my profound impression that nowhere does Scripture refute any process naturally occurring in this universe -- that is, according to the physical laws as discovered by man to this point; and also that nowhere does any living process in the universe refute anything in Holy Scripture.
Must leave the problem there for now. Til someone else wants to stir it up again. Meanwhile, God’s blessing on each and all of us.
With my profound thanks to you, A-G, for an outstanding post.
The classic example is creation week in Genesis 1-2 versus the observed age of the universe. Once relativity and inflationary theory are considered, there is no conflict.
Sure God is powerful enough to have a virgin give birth...He also is powerful enough to make elves, fairies, and let people rise from the dead...I just don't believe these things have happened.
What evidence do you assign to your god?
I have none, it's just faith, and a gut-feeling that there is a supreme being. Why do you need evidence?
You haven’t responded to any of my pings yet, and I hope that means you are scanning over some of the information on the links which are all intended to illustrate the wonder of the Scriptures even concerning the natural realm.
From reading your posts on this thread and your profile page I see that you are spiritual in that you believe that God is, you seek Him but have chosen to reject all organized religious belief.
It is good that you believe there is one God. And I sympathize with your desire not to get caught up in the doctrines and traditions of men. I avoid that as well because Christ tell us to do so (Mark 7:7). Sadly, when men try to superimpose their own will in spiritual matters, they sometimes create stumbling blocks for others who are seeking. (Matt 23:13).
The Scriptures are unlike any other manuscript. They are alive, but not to everyone who reads them. The Truth is in there, not in the wisdom of man. For that reason, I implore to read the Gospel of John one more time. Only this time, clear your mind, get a relaxing drink and a quiet place and read it very casually like you would read a letter. Don’t study it. If you are His, as I suspect that you are because of your seeking – then you will hear Him, He will know you and you will follow Him (John 10:27) and we will call you Christian and brother.
I have read it again recently, and I feel that if God wants me to believe in a particular manner, I will. I still cannot believe that a human came back from life...perhaps one day I will. Thanks.
Others (I am one) believe that both predestination and "free will" exist. A few believe that nothing is predestined (these probably do not yet understand relativity LOL!).
The experience of knowing Christ is a complete overwhelming of our spirit by His Spirit.
I consider myself blessed to have also experienced the passing of both my mother’s and my sister’s spirit when they went into a deep coma before their bodies stopped functioning in this 4D realm. In both cases, I felt them go through me, assuring me that they are alive and very happy. But they didn’t tarry. Christ, however, never leaves.
When my husband died while we were SCUBA diving in the Emerald Sea off Panama City, Florida – he fell back to about 70 feet of water. There the water is green or increasingly deep blue at depth. But when I went to release his weight belt and bring him to surface, the area all around him where he lay was aglow. What a spiritual blessing!
There are many accounts of people being brought back from the "dead" though medical intervention and others being called "miracles" I read a book several years ago about a heart doctor and what his patients told him after they had died and through medical intervention been brought back to life.
I feel that regardless of how we believe, what is, and what is to be, doesn't change....consequently, I don't think it really matters how we believe.
I'm sorry for your losses.
Of course it's an unproven idea...so what?
I don't think that is the same situation as with Jesus, is it?
Lots of firsthand testimony as to the virgin birth. With it all forecast 100s of years before.
Hebrews 11:1 Now Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
SS. So i think you are on the starting line of the track.
My beliefs are bolstered by Hebrews 11:3: By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was made from things that are not visible.
I have no need for evidence in my belief in God, because it is something inside of me..I don't think that I could not believe in God.
I have need of evidence for someone coming back to life, because it has allegedly only happened once in the history of man.
I have need of evidence for virgin birth, because it has allegedly only happened once in the history of man.
I have need of evidence that we as human beings are in need of salvation from something.
A book, is not evidence, and witnesses from over 2000 yrs ago, are not proof. I do not have anything inside of me, that leans towards a belief that someone came back from the dead or that there was a virgin birth, or that we are in need of salvation. How could there possibly be firsthand evidence of a virgin birth...how does one prove that something did not happen? Prior to dying, how does one prove a need of salvation? How does one prove that our sins were forgiven by Christ's death?......It is all in faith, and different people have different faiths. That is how God obviously wants it, or it wouldn't be.
What would you have someone do to believe these things?...open their heart, study scripture, fast, pray, etc....when and if God sees fit for me to believe this, I'm sure I will.
Alamo-Girl, thank you so much for the great link! Much excellent material over there!
I'm tickled you are enjoying it, too! It is one of my favorite websites.
*Sigh*
Wearing a miniskirt at a lot of convents these days would probably make you quite popular. All the bull dykes would be checking out the new set of legs. Thank God they aren't all like that.
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