PROPHETIC SIGNS THAT WE ARE IN THE END TIMES [A good summary of SOME key evidences--QX]

CONTENDER MINISTRIES ^ | 11 JUL 2004 | JENNIFER RAST

[Quix]

My view on all those 'codes' are that they are far to short to be more than artifacts of the process. There is a significant likelihood that they could be found in any long Hebrew text.

It is CONCEIVABLE that some of them might be valid but they just did not ring that way to me. There were no contextual or geographical or artistic factors indicating validity--that I noticed in a quick scan.

Sometimes the fact of the software being out amongst those not given to staying up-to-date on the research and statistics . . . ends up being a blight on the whole phenomenon.

These pseud-codes at the link strike me as rather like Drosnin's shallow hogwash.


imho.

[Safrguns]

chosen before the foundation... may not be referring to individuals but rather a group of individuals... just a thought. "Chosen" may not be a reference to salvation, but rather a calling or service unto God.

You and I both know that God creates nothing which is evil, so the correlation cannot be a valid one. God creates things that are good. They are then corrupted by us. God does however use ALL things (good and evil) to further His will.

[Safrguns]

mine is that we did exist in identifiable form of some sort outside the 'mere' mind of God--as though anything about God could be 'mere.' How could this be possible without a vessel for the [SOUL]? Mormons believe that we exist as spirit beings awaiting birth into a physical body... which is one good indication that this is NOT the case. I do believe this topic simply revolves around the omniscience of God... which is something we are not capable of comprehending, just as eternity itself is beyond our grasp. I think that our attempts to grasp it simply results in speculations which cannot be supported... even though it's fun to try.

[Quix]

Pretty well said from my perspective.

. . . . speculative perspective and otherwise.

[Just mythoughts]

"You and I both know that God creates nothing which is evil, so the correlation cannot be a valid one. God creates things that are good. They are then corrupted by us. God does however use ALL things (good and evil) to further His will."

That is exactly correct, we are told that Lucifer, Satan, the devil,the serpent, the dragon, the instead of christ, the play actor, king of Babylon, all those roles he has played, and will be allowed to play, was created perfect.

We are given the history of Lucifer, and he was created as the anointing cherub, yet even in his beauty and perfection, he rebelled and he decided he was 'god' and he drew a third part of the stars of heaven.

Now given we are told this about the devil, who do you think those "stars of heaven" are?

[Safrguns]

who do you think those "stars of heaven" are?

In reference to which verse?

[Just mythoughts]

Well for starters Job 38: 1-7,

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Genesis 6 describes the sons of God versus daughters of the Adam.

Rev. 12, the dragon drew a third part of the stars of heaven...

[Safrguns]

Yes... I think it's important for people to realize that Adam and Eve are not the first ones to sin against God.
Part of the reason for our creation was to prove to Lucifer that God's creation could choose to reject sin.
Lucifer's challenge to God was that any free-willed creation would eventually do what he did.

[fortheDeclaration]

God's true church is NOT represented by SOME (1Tim4:1), nor by men (2Tim3:2), nor by those with a form of Godliness <(2Tim3:5), nor by women with sin (2Tim3:6), nor by evil men and impostors (3Tim3:13). I see no identifiers of The Church in your references

Paul says they shall 'depart from the faith' that is the definition of apostasy.

In 2Tim. the context shows that Paul is directing Timothy how to deal with his sheep.

He is telling Timothy to exhort, reprove, rebuke, with all longsuffering and doctrine' believers, not unbelievers.

Why?

Because there will come a time when they will not endure sound doctrine.

This is directed to the church, not the unbeliever.(see also 2Pe.2)

The church is removed when the Body is complete.

It is an inference from the fact that the Church is the Body of Christ (1Cor.12) and His Bride.(Eph.5:23-32)

Once the Body is complete there is no reason any longer for the church to remain on earth and Christ will receive His bride in heaven as complete (Eph.5:27)

Then will begin the Tribulation (Jacobs trouble Jer.30:7)

[Safrguns]

There is no question that many believers even 10-50 years ago adhere to false doctrins. False doctrins can be found in every denomination, and are the basis for the origins of christian cults. I seriously doubt this situation will get any better. However, this again is not representative of 'THE Church' as a whole. There are still those in the majority which do adhere to sound doctrin, and are effective in their ministry.

Once the Body is complete there is no reason any longer for the church to remain on earth and Christ will receive His bride in heaven as complete (Eph.5:27)

How can the body be complete if there are still those to be won during the tribulation?

[Safrguns]

Ephesians 5:27 concerns why husbands should love their wives. It demonstrates that the institution of marriage was established to represent the relationship between the church and Jesus Christ.
5:26 - "... that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church..."
I don't see any indication of a completeness trigger here.

[fortheDeclaration]

How can the body be complete if there are still those to be won during the tribulation?

That is the essential difference in Dispensational theology and non-dispensational theology.

In the church age, when a gentile or jew believes in Christ he becomes a Christian (a member of the Body of Christ)

All of those who became before the Church age (Acts 2), (friends of the Bride) were either saved gentiles (Enoch, Noah, Job) or saved Jews.

When the Church is removed, when one believes in the Tribulation period (a resumption of the Jewish age-Daniels 70th week) one will be either a saved Jew or Gentile, not a Christian.

Only in this dispensation are there three groups of people, Gentile, Jew and Church (saved)(1Cor.10:32)

[Safrguns]

I'm not real familiar with dispensational theology.
Can you provide some biblical support which addresses the completeness of the body of Christ?
Preferrably some which relates this concept to it being a trigger for terminating the current age.

[fortheDeclaration]

I'm not real familiar with dispensational theology. Can you provide some biblical support which addresses the completeness of the body of Christ? Preferrably some which relates this concept to it being a trigger for terminating the current age.

As I said, the church is the body of Christ (Eph.1:23)

This was a mystery revealed only to Paul, that a new body was being formed, that was neither Jew nor Gentile (Eph.3:5-6)

This new body being formed in this dispensation is going to be the Bride of Christ (Eph.5)

Once this body is complete (the final New Testament saint saved) there is no more reason for the church age to continue.

Thus, from that one can deduce the Rapture of those church age believers will occur.

That is why the time of the Rapture is a mystery, no one knows when that final individual which will complete that body will be saved.

[Safrguns]

the church is the body of Christ (Eph.1:23) There was no question as to what the body of Christ is. that a new body was being formed, that was neither Jew nor Gentile (Eph.3:5-6) How can you say this, when Eph 3:6 SPECIFICALLY mentions Gentiles? Paul's point was that salvation was NOT limited to the Jews... that simple. Here, Gentiles was being used in the generic sense to mean 'Non-Jew'. Once this body is complete (the final New Testament saint saved)... No biblical reference given for the very point I was referring to. Does the bible refer to the completeness of the body or not?

[fortheDeclaration]

the church is the body of Christ (Eph.1:23) There was no question as to what the body of Christ is. that a new body was being formed, that was neither Jew nor Gentile (Eph.3:5-6) How can you say this, when Eph 3:6 SPECIFICALLY mentions Gentiles? Paul's point was that salvation was NOT limited to the Jews... that simple. Here, Gentiles was being used in the generic sense to mean 'Non-Jew'.

No, in Gal.3:28 it is said that when one believes now he is neither Jew nor Gentile in the eyes of God, but a member of the Body of Christ.

Once this body is complete (the final New Testament saint saved)... No biblical reference given for the very point I was referring to. Does the bible refer to the completeness of the body or not?

Yes, the verse that refers to the completion of the Body leading to the Jewish age beginning again is in Rom.11:25, where Israel is said to be blind the fullness of the Gentiles come in

Then Paul goes on to explain that the next event will be the Second coming and the establishment of the New Convenant promised to Israel (Jer.31:31, Heb.8:80)

Below is from the Scofield Bible, the classical work on Dispensational theology.

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

fullness The "fullness of the Gentiles" is the completion of the purpose of God in this age, viz. the outcalling from among the Gentiles of a people for Christ's name, "the church which is His body" Ephesians 1:22,23 Cf ; Acts 15:14; Ephesians 4:11-13; 1 Corinthians 12:12,13. It must be distinguished from "the times of the Gentiles" Luke 21:24.

[Safrguns]

when one believes now he is neither Jew nor Gentile in the eyes of God, but a member of the Body of Christ.

True. No argument here.

Rom 11:25 - How can the 'fullness of the Gentiles' be referring to the 'fullness of the body' when the body of Christ is neither Jew nor Gentile?

Eph 1:23 - "which is His body, the fullness of Him" describes Jesus, not the body of Christ

Eph 4:13 - again... "fullness of Christ". This passage addresses the purpose of the Gifts... not a description OF the body of Christ.

1 Cor 12:12-13 Addresses the importance of All gifts of THE Spirit, calling for 'Unity In Christ'. (being of one mind)
This describes unity... not completeness

Luke 21:24 - "times of the Gentiles" is referring to the tribulation period. See verse 22: "these are the days of vengeance,..." The outcalling from among the Gentiles of a people for Christ's name continues during the tribulation, as you stated before.

Again... If the body is to grow during the tribulation, how can you call the body complete before then?

[fortheDeclaration]

There is only one body, and that is the church.

The Body is a specific designation for the Church, not for believers of any other period (hence a mystery)

Once the fullness of the Gentiles has been arrived at, then the Body of Christ, His bride, will be complete and be removed.

Saved Jews of the Old Testament (and Tribulation) are friends of the bride, not the bride.(Jn.3:29)

[fortheDeclaration]

Rom 11:25 - How can the 'fullness of the Gentiles' be referring to the 'fullness of the body' when the body of Christ is neither Jew nor Gentile?

It is the Gentiles who are being 'grafted into the Jewish tree' of salvation.(Rom.11,4)

The Jews have been set aside (mystery of hardening) while this new body, made up of mostly Gentiles is being formed.

Paul states that the Gentiles being saved and being changed from Gentile to Christian is to provoke the Jews to envy.

Salvation was always of the Jew,(Rom.3) but now the Gentiles are the ones being saved, while the Jews are blinded.

Yet, when the full number of Gentiles and individual Jews have been added to the church, then that body will be removed be wed to Christ (Rev.19:7-9)

Saved Jews and Gentiles of the Old Testament and Tribulation are not church, are not the Body of Christ, are not the Bride of Christ.

Thus, there are three groups of saved people, Gentiles, Jews and Christian.

Abraham is a saved Jew (not part of the Body)

Noah is a saved Gentile (Not part of the Body)

Paul is a saved Jew who became a Christian (part of the Body) the Eunich of Acts 8 was a Gentile who became a Christian (Part of the Body).

The church age began in Acts 2 and will run until the Rapture.

When the Body becomes complete (Rom.11:25) then the church will be removed and the Tribulation will begin which is a continuation of the Old Testament, and there will be saved Jews and Gentiles, but no Christians (no Body)

[Safrguns]

The Body is a specific designation for the Church, not for believers of any other period (hence a mystery)

First half of this sentence is correct... the second half has no basis in scripture. A believer is a believer. It is appointed to man once to die, then comes the judgement. Are you saying that Moses is not part of the Body of Christ? Joshua?, DAVID??? Who do you think the captives were that were set free by Jesus after He died on the cross?
You say there is only one body, which is correct, but then you refer to another body which is merely a "friend" of the bride?

Saved Jews of the Old Testament (and Tribulation) are friends of the bride, not the bride.(Jn.3:29)

Actually, you have mis-quoted John 3:29. Here, followers of John the baptist approach him with concerns that he is being upstaged by Jesus. John's response was that he (John) is a "friend of the BrideGROOM" John is referring to himself... not others. Friends of the Bridegroom is another reference to believers.