What is the Catholic origin of the "Orans Position" (vanity)

Catholic Answers Discussion Group ^

[netmilsmom]

There is a big discussion going on at this site. I know there are many FReepers there.

Could someone please give me a Catholic perspective on the "Orans" position?

I know the GIRM says nothing about it, but where did it come from? I did a Google seach and found that this is traditional for Muslims but brand new for Catholics.

[murphE]

Pardon my chiming. I do not know the origin of the orans position, and as far as using it while you are praying in private doesn't seem like a problem to me.

The controversy/problem occurs when the laity use it during the mass, when it is proscribed only for the priest. The subtle or not so subtle message is a diminishment of the unique and distinct role of the priest, who is offering the sacrifice of the mass on our behalf, in Persona Christi.

[netmilsmom]

>>Heh! I see I slept through this :-).<<

Hehehe! You are such a peach, thanks for your input! See you at the Family Table....

[NYer]

Kolo - you mention that the orans position is a very ancient one and have shared a beautiful psalm with us. Our pastor encourages us to pray the Our Father in the orans position, during the Divine Liturgy. Given what you posted, it now makes sense. Thank you again!

[Kolokotronis]

Makes sense that the Abounna would do this. Like I said, the Orthodox Arabs do this. We have a Syrian/American girl in the parish, a student at the local college, and she always says the Our Father that way. She is very pious, chants and has the voice of an angel.

[Kolokotronis]

"The controversy/problem occurs when the laity use it during the mass, when it is proscribed only for the priest. The subtle or not so subtle message is a diminishment of the unique and distinct role of the priest, who is offering the sacrifice of the mass on our behalf, in Persona Christi."

Murph: That's a very interesting observation. You know, the word liturgia is Greek and means "Work of the People". I say the observation is interesting because it demonstrates how the liturgy in the West and the Liturgy in the East have developed in different directions insofar as the phronema or mindset of the Churches is concerned. I can see exactly what you are saying if I look at it in the context of Roman liturgics. No matter how old or venerable the practice may be in the East, it looks like another innovation in the West and it certainly does physically show an involvement of the people in the act of the liturgy to an extent perhaps previously not engaged in for many centuries in the West.

[Romulus]

You nailed it.

[annalex]

I know the priest assumes that posture at several points during the Mass, but is it not the prescribed posture for all during Our Father?

[Kolokotronis]

"I am not comfortable with using the orans position because of my Roman Catholic upbringing, and it could be easy to suspect a modernistic intent on the part of some in this day and age."

You know, I wouldn't either. It looks hokey to me, but like you, that's my upbringing. I know if I see an Arab doing it, that is what they do and have for 2000 years so its OK. Now I'll tell you, if I saw the orans position in an RC church during the Mass, my immediate reaction would be that some nun in a pants suit came up with the idea to make the Mass more touchy/feely. That is very unfair of me, I know, but I don't react at all rationally to some of the things I see going on in places where I am used to seeing something else entirely!

[Romulus]

It is not prescribed. Nor is it proscribed. The GIRM makes no mention of it so far as the faithful are concerned because it doesn't contemplate the possibility at all (what planet are these jokers on, I wonder).

On rare occasion I might adopt the position for private prayer, but I would never use it at Mass, for the reasons I've already indicated.

[Romulus]

that's my upbringing.

And faithfulness to a liturgical tradition is critical to what we do as Catholics.

I know if I see an Arab doing it, that is what they do and have for 2000 years

Give or take 600 years.

my immediate reaction would be that some nun in a pants suit came up with the idea to make the Mass more touchy/feely.

My reaction would be that it came from a nun all right, but one who had reduced the Mass to its externals and was therefore jealous of priestly "power", without regard for what the priestly office signifies.

[Kolokotronis]

"And faithfulness to a liturgical tradition is critical to what we do as Catholics."

Well, we Orthodox are not exactly known as liturgical innovators ourselves! :)

"My reaction would be that it came from a nun all right, but one who had reduced the Mass to its externals and was therefore jealous of priestly "power", without regard for what the priestly office signifies."

That too! The pants suit is usually a dead giveaway!

[murphE]

No, in fact it is the specifically stated posture for only the priest. Deacons on the altar are directed not to do it. There is no specific direction for lay people, but if the deacon is not supposed to be in that position...

[annalex]

I went to mass where I usually go these days, St. Rose in Sacramento (well, I'd usually go on Sunday). It is by no means a liberal parish, very reverent. I noticed some standing with their hands folded. Most, however, hold their hands up, -- which up till now I though was the proper posture, -- and some join hands in a Protestant way.

There was another moment when most held their hands up, and that was at the beginning of the Eucharistic prayer, -- "Lift up your hearts, -- We lift them up to the Lord". Is this also incorrect?

Thank you both for educating me, by the way.

[murphE]

Here are some links I found from the Q&A at EWTN. From what I can tell there is no official position for the laity. If you do a search going back "forever" on EWTN Q&A forum you will find a variety of answers from the "experts". Here are some:

Answer #1

Answer #2

Answer #3

Hope this helps, or you could just find a Traditional Latin Mass :-).