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The dictator, the saint and the minister - [Opus Dei extends its reach]
Guardian (U.K.) ^ | January 28, 2005 | Andy Beckett

Posted on 01/29/2005 7:44:55 PM PST by snarks_when_bored

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To: seamole; TotusTuus
Christ demands unreserved,total obedience to God and lawful authority.

Opus Dei is a Catholic organization and a personal prelature of the Pope. Catholics believe the Church was established by Christ,Who appointed Peter as Vicar.

In the last chapter of John,Christ gives Peter a lot of tasks. He then tells Peter how do the job He gave him to do. Christ's simple direction to Peter was: "Thou follow me."

So in order to do God's Will on earth,the flock,which includes Opus Dei,must be obedient and follow Peter,who was told by Christ to follow Him.

That is the bare bones version of God's plan for bringing His people on earth back to Himself.

In the interest of time,I have omitted a few details.(sarc)

21 posted on 01/29/2005 11:27:44 PM PST by saradippity
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To: seamole
Regardless, "blind" obedience to lawful authority is not evil. A formed Catholic conscience will know that lawful authority, by its definition, cannot order you to commit a sin. That is, if someone with lawful authority orders you to commit a sin, then the order is unlawful and therefore does not have lawful authority, and you are obliged to disregard it.

But how do you know if it's sinful, if you're giving it "blind" obedience?

22 posted on 01/29/2005 11:33:35 PM PST by xm177e2 (Stalinists, Maoists, Ba'athists, Pacifists: Why are they always on the same side?)
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To: snarks_when_bored

The following explains the correct Catholic concept of obedience as it has been taught for 2000 years.

-------


OBEDIENCE AND THE FAITH
It is the teaching of the Church that obedience is part of justice, one of the four cardinal virtues, which are in turn subordinate to the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity. Faith is greater than obedience! Therefore, if obedience acts to harm the faith, than a Catholic has a duty not to obey his superior.

"Now sometimes the things commanded by a superior are against God, therefore superiors are not to be obeyed in all things." -- St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church, Summa Theologica II-IIQ. 104

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema." -- Galatians 1:8


According to the great theologian, St. Thomas Aquinas, true obedience is a balance between twin errors of defect and excess, which are disobedience and false obedience (IIa IIae, Q104, 5 and 3). Today this second error is common among Catholics who, when they follow orders to depart from Tradition, think they are being obedient.

Where there is a proximate danger to the faith, prelates must be rebuked, even publicly, by subjects. Thus, St. Paul who was subject to St. Peter, rebuked him publicly. --St. Thomas Aquinas, Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians 2:14

We ought to obey God...rather than men. -- Acts 5:29

And there is no reason why those who obey God rather than men should be accused of refusing obedience; for if the will of rulers is opposed to the will and the laws of God, these rulers exceed the bounds of their own power and pervert justice, nor can their authority then be valid, which, when there is no justice, is null. -- Leo XIII, Diuturnum Illud.

----

Contrast the above teachings with those found in Msgr. Escriva's "The Way".

Maxim 61: Whenever a layman sets himself up as an arbiter of morality, he frequently errs; laymen can only be disciples.

Maxim 941: Obedience, the sure way. Blind obedience to your superior, the way of sanctity. Obedience in your apostolate, the only way: for, in a work of God, the spirit must be to obey or to leave.

Excerpt from "Studies on The Way" -- At that time, The Way prepared millions of people to come into harmony with, and to imbibe, on a deep level, some of the most revolutionary teachings which thirty years later would be solemnly promulgated by the Church at Vatican II.

----

The quotes directly above point to a clear break with the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church on obedience. It is self admitted to be revolutionary and novel. It is therefore not Catholic.


(For it is a master-stroke of Satan to get Catholics to disobey the whole of Tradition in the name of obedience." --Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre)


23 posted on 01/29/2005 11:59:01 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: snarks_when_bored

As soon as the article mentioned "the DeVinci Code" I lost interest. That book would be a joke if so many didn't believe it


24 posted on 01/30/2005 5:02:19 AM PST by kjvail (Judica me Deus, et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta)
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To: snarks_when_bored

Essentially, a Spanish-speaking cult look for an agenda among people opposed to liberation theology. Why it should attract a socialist minister is baffling. Strange.


25 posted on 01/30/2005 5:28:04 AM PST by Wessex
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To: snarks_when_bored

I had alot of experience with Opus Dei when I was an undergrad at Notre Dame. Much of what this article says about them is true - they are secretive (unecessarily so) and focus their recruitment among the professional elites. Of all the Opus Dei members in South Bend I met, only one was not affiliated with Notre Dame, and he was a doctor. South Bend is a very blue collar town, yet this was not reflected in OD's membership there. Make of that what you will.

Still this article maligns CHristians in general - questioning why an educated woman would be attracted to conservative Catholicism. Indeed, most opposition to OD comes from liberals both in and outside the CHurch. THere are plenty of reasons for orthodox Catholics to be concerned about OD, but the dominant voices against Opus Dei are generally opposed to anything orthodox.

I wouldn't touch OD again with a ten foot pole. But there is no reason to fear any member of OD gaining a position of power in the govt. They generally keep to themselves; one will only experience the unpleasant side of OD if one is actively involved or being recruited by the group. I wouldn't want to be close friends with an OD member, but I certainly wouldn't mind having one as my boss or government minister. At that point, the only thing the rest of us have to fear from an OD member is conservative Catholicism. If that scares you, then you have bigger problems to deal with.....


26 posted on 01/30/2005 7:05:10 AM PST by sassbox
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To: saradippity
No surprise at all.

Certainly no surprise to anyone who knows the Guardian - and, especially Beckett.

See, what really irks him (and I'm loving it) is Kelly's stubborn refusal to conform to the Guardian template of a "Blair Babe". His sub-text actually reads,

"How dare she be young, female, smart as a whip and a Cabinet Minister and a conservative Catholic! Why couldn't she be a real Catholic like, say, tree-hugging, amulet-wearing, mantra-chanting, guru-chasing Cherie?

27 posted on 01/30/2005 11:05:16 AM PST by Selous
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
The quotes directly above point to a clear break with the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church on obedience. It is self admitted to be revolutionary and novel. It is therefore not Catholic.

But you are taking St. Josemaria out of context. For instance, here are some quotes from Conversations:

From the moment in which they first approach the Work, all its members are fully aware of their individual freedom. If one of them ever tried to exert pressure on the others to make them accept his political opinions, or to use them for human interests, they would rebel and expel him without a second thought.

Respect for its members' freedom is an essential condition of Opus Dei's very existence. Without it, no one would come to the Work. Even more. The Work has never intervened in politics and, with God's help it never will; but if it were to, I would be its number one enemy. (No. 28)

Not only because we associate exclusively for supernatural ends, but also because if a member of Opus Dei were to attempt to impose, directly or indirectly, a temporal criterion on the other members, or if he should try to make use of them for human ends, he would be expelled at once. For the other members would rebel and their rebellion would be legitimate and holy. (No. 39)

Opus Dei's directors can never impose a political or professional criterion on other members. If a member of the Work ever tried to do this, or to use other members of the Work for some human end, he would be expelled straightaway, because they would rise in legitimate rebellion. (No. 48)


28 posted on 01/30/2005 12:42:28 PM PST by gbcdoj ("The Pope orders, the cardinals do not obey, and the people do as they please" - Benedict XIV)
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To: gbcdoj

That's nice. Escriva and OD's problem is that the smooth public statements designed to create a certain image do not correlate with the internal charter, teachings and practice. There is your context.


29 posted on 01/30/2005 12:49:37 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
How much of St. Josemaria's writings have you read? You dodged the question last time.
The first step of humility is unhesitating obedience, which comes naturally to those who cherish Christ above all. Because of the holy service they have professed, or because of dread of hell and for the glory of everlasting life, they carry out the superior's order as promptly as if the command came from God himself. (St. Benedict, Rule 5:1-4)

30 posted on 01/30/2005 12:54:57 PM PST by gbcdoj ("The Pope orders, the cardinals do not obey, and the people do as they please" - Benedict XIV)
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To: gbcdoj

St. Benedict did not preach blind obedience. He understood correct Catholic doctrine.

He and Escriva are not alike. Do not attempt to distort Benedictine teaching to Escriva's modernist, revolutionary doctrines.


31 posted on 01/30/2005 1:03:44 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
If you applied the same hermeneutic of suspicion to St. Benedict that you apply to St. Josemaria, you'd end up with the same conclusion about how he's a preacher of revolutionary doctrines.

Are you going to say how many of St. Josemaria's works you've read?

32 posted on 01/30/2005 1:11:15 PM PST by gbcdoj ("The Pope orders, the cardinals do not obey, and the people do as they please" - Benedict XIV)
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To: snarks_when_bored
Andy Beckett.

Maybe his Daddy was in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade.

Opus Dei is an excellent apostolate and Fr. Escriva was a Saint.

33 posted on 01/30/2005 1:32:42 PM PST by bornacatholic (Liberal traditionalists; the Neo-Protestants of our times)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
(For it is a master-stroke of Satan to get Catholics to disobey the whole of Tradition in the name of obedience." --Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre)

* The master stroke of Satan is to convince Catholics that Tradition is preserved by Schism.

34 posted on 01/30/2005 1:37:17 PM PST by bornacatholic (Liberal traditionalists; the Neo-Protestants of our times)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
My family had an Opus Dei priest stay with us on several occasions. I went to several evenings of recollection with him and Opus Dei members. I was invited to join but it wasn't my cup of tea.

Still, they are a great apostolate. I have read several of the Saints's works. How many Opus Dei mtgs have you been to and how many of the Saint's writings have you read?

35 posted on 01/30/2005 1:46:31 PM PST by bornacatholic (Liberal traditionalists; the Neo-Protestants of our times)
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To: gbcdoj

Wrong.

Name one thing St. Benedict preached that was not Catholic.

I can and have named more than one for Escriva.


36 posted on 01/30/2005 2:54:22 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
How many of St. Josemaria's works have you've read?

Look, St. Benedict preached nothing but Catholicism and so did St. Josemaria. If you applied your rules of interpretation consistently to St. Benedict's quote that I provided, you would say something just like this:

That's nice. [Benedict's] ... problem is that the smooth public statements designed to create a certain image do not correlate with the internal charter, teachings and practice. There is your context.

37 posted on 01/30/2005 2:57:29 PM PST by gbcdoj ("The Pope orders, the cardinals do not obey, and the people do as they please" - Benedict XIV)
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To: gbcdoj

I knew you couldn't.


38 posted on 01/30/2005 2:58:49 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: ikka

And do you think that the people of Jesus' time thought that He was a little nuts, too.

Your argument doesn't hold water.

And the beatitudes that were read in the Gospel today, tell us to be counter-culture. Be poor instead of rich, hurting instead of on top of the world, helpful rather than firing employees as a ruthless boss. A little nuts -- no?


39 posted on 01/30/2005 3:02:43 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Tribune7

LOL! So true!


40 posted on 01/30/2005 3:03:06 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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