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Men, Woman Say They Were Cured by Faith Healings [Part 2 in Cleveland news report]
News Channel 5 ^ | February 22, 2005

Posted on 02/22/2005 3:09:03 PM PST by Diago

NewsNet5.com

Men, Woman Say They Were Cured by Faith Healings

Woman Told She Was Going To Die Says She Was Healed

UPDATED: 10:08 am EST February 22,

2005

CLEVELAND -- An unprecedented number of faith healings in Cleveland are taking place in area churches at a faster pace than ever before, NewsChannel5 reported.

Video
Hands-On Healing
Healing Patients
Download RealPlayer
Ted Henry is sharing the stories of many Clevelanders who say they’ve been healed as a result of healing miracles.

Those healed include friends, neighbors, prominent doctors, relatives, media personalities and even people from other states.

What they have in common is that each of them has received some sort of physical transformation through the power of prayer.

Liz Simmons finally saw one of the healers after more than 20 years of multiple sclerosis.

SLIDESHOW: Faith Healers
SCHEDULE: Healing Services

"So I saw him the following week, and that week I was healed of the MS. I do not have MS anymore," Simmons said.

Liz’s story is not unusual. For more than a decade now, a band of healers including a priest, nun and a lay couple come together to pray for the purpose of restoring sick people back to good health, Henry reported. The healings usually take place in catholic churches, but people of all faiths are welcome.

Randy Zinn said what happens here is amazing.

"I had a ruptured disc in my neck and I had been scheduled for surgery at the hospital," Zinn said.

He never needed his surgery. According to Henry, Zinn was healed spiritually by Dr. Issam Nemeh, one of the members of the healing team.

"He said, 'Do you believe in God'? I said, 'I do.' He said, 'Do you believe that God could heal you'? I said, 'I could save you some time here, I believe in a God that could put man on earth, that allows the birds in the sky and who allows the grass to grow. Yes, I believe that all things are possible.' And he said, 'Well, this won’t take very long,'" Zinn said.

In minutes, Zinn was healed, Henry said. These healers travel from church to church. No money is ever accepted. No one is ever refused.

How do doctors view the subject of miraculous healing?

Doctors are taking a new look at the power of Prayer, Henry said. Some report spiritual healings of their own. Dr. Michael Hudec, of Parma, once had cancer.

"But something powerful happened. I always heard of laying on of hands and falling in the spirit and I was a naysayer," Hudec said. "You know in science, as a doctor, you always kind of question stuff like that, until you experience it first hand."

Hudec believes he was cured of testicular cancer by Sister Monica of the healing team. As proof, he points to children he was never suppose to have, and he thanks the nun.

"She doesn’t know it. You know I don’t know her personally, but she is a miracle worker," Hudec said.

And another person who benefited by the miracle workers was Jill Mierau, who was dying in the final stages of cancer.

"By the time I came here, my cancer had so progressed, the lungs were infected, I was on oxygen and you know the pain was really bad. I was on an extreme amount of narcotics for pain relief," Mierau said.

Mierau’s cancer doctor said there was nothing more to do. She gave her two months to live.

"She said, get your house in order. I planned the funeral, bought the grave, did the whole shabang. By May of last year, I was suppose to be dead," Mierau said.

But after coming to the healers, Mierau weaned herself away from most of her medications. Her great pain is gone. She no longer needs oxygen and the sole focus of her attention now is her 10-year-old daughter, Ashley, who gave her a necklace.

"So that represents my daughter, if that means anything. My daughter says to me, 'Mom, what more do you need? You always tell me you need Jesus. So that’s what you need then,'” Mierau said.

She was helped both at the healing church services and at Nemeh's office. Mierau has come a long way since last year. Now, she wants to bring her out-of-town aunt who has fourth stage cancer to the services. And Mierau wants others to know that she is still alive.

"I wish I could tell everybody, because it’s such a wonderful feeling to still be here to know that my life has meaning again," Mierau said. "I am not done yet. You know, I am not done. I have a lot to do yet. I have a 10-year-old girl that I know just needs me."

Henry said that Mierau is an amazing woman, and like many others who said they’ve been healed, she continues to attend the healing services for the purpose of being spiritually supportive of others.

You can share your experienced with Ted by e-mailing him at henry@newsnet5.com.

Get the list of healing service, here.

On Tuesday, Find out why a doctor has chosen to become a faith healer.

Previous Story:




TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events
KEYWORDS: faithhealing

1 posted on 02/22/2005 3:09:05 PM PST by Diago
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To: Diago

Part 1 posted here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1347923/posts


2 posted on 02/22/2005 3:10:03 PM PST by Diago
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To: Diago
It is the year 2005, and the snake handlers are still at it!
3 posted on 02/22/2005 3:43:36 PM PST by conservlib
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To: Diago

I thought God died with the apostles. (/sarc)


4 posted on 02/22/2005 4:33:09 PM PST by KidGlock (W-1)
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To: Diago

Bookmarked. Interesting.


5 posted on 02/22/2005 6:28:24 PM PST by Always Right
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To: Diago

I do not believe in the modern Charismatic gifts being genuine gifts from God, those ended long ago.

I would like to see someone I KNOW or someone who has a documented broken bone get healed, and then x-rayed to see if it actually happened.

Otherwise, it is either a sham or a demonic phony.

I do believe God can heal, I just dont believe He is doing it through miracle slike this today, it is totally against Chruch history and Bible doctrine.

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/charis35.htm

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/tongues/apendix2.htm


6 posted on 02/22/2005 7:59:21 PM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: RaceBannon

I think you won't have to look to far to hear stories of real, documented miracles. I personally know several people who have been healed.

Since you specifically mentioned it - in one case (a good friend) I have seen the before and after X-rays. His doctors and surgeons -the best in their field- said they had no explanation, that there was no way he could have spontaneously healed, and even they conceded it must be a miracle.

I believe cessationism is a denial of the awesome power of God and of great delight to Satan.

For those who have chosen to believe that God does not perform miracles today, no "proof" will be sufficient.

All in all, I'd suggest to anyone that he/she go straight to God in prayer and ask Him.


7 posted on 02/22/2005 8:52:09 PM PST by Zechariah_8_13 ("Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point.")
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To: Zechariah_8_13

Proof is easy to find, we can go drag someone out of a hpospital emergency room right now.

And that is my point, if these people had the genuine Holy Spirit gift of healing, they would not be holding meetings, they would be in Emergency rooms and hospices.


8 posted on 02/23/2005 4:27:04 AM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: Diago
Those healed include friends, neighbors, prominent doctors, relatives, media personalities and even people from other states.
9 posted on 02/23/2005 4:50:16 AM PST by wildehunt (follow those hounds..)
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To: Zechariah_8_13
"All in all, I'd suggest to anyone that he/she go straight to God in prayer and ask Him."

Good point! Isn't that so simple =-)?

I did just that when I too wondered why those folks of faith didn't waltz into nursing homes and hospitals. To state such would cause a slight depression in the economy might be an understatement.

Then, would the people of the world rush to the so-called faith healers to be healed? More like, "We'll watch your God heal up those lion bites all over your bodies."

10 posted on 02/23/2005 6:52:11 AM PST by Ff--150 (Multiple Tsunamis of Income)
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To: RaceBannon

You must be a Baptist.


11 posted on 02/23/2005 8:43:53 AM PST by roylene
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To: RaceBannon
And that is my point, if these people had the genuine Holy Spirit gift of healing, they would not be holding meetings, they would be in Emergency rooms and hospices.

I always wondered about that. If I was given divine healing powers, I'd hang out where there were a lot of injured people, such as an emergency room, rather than trying to make money in faith healing meetings.

12 posted on 02/23/2005 8:47:32 AM PST by Modernman ("Normally, I don't listen to women, or doctors." - Captain Hero)
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To: Diago
if it wasnt for this sentence: "No money is ever accepted" I would have stopped reading
13 posted on 02/23/2005 8:50:43 AM PST by Mr. K (this space for rent)
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To: RaceBannon
I actually agree with you for the most part on this.

I'm always wondering what the charismatics are going to dig up next and throw in the well.

14 posted on 02/23/2005 8:51:48 AM PST by AAABEST (Kyrie eleison - Christe eleison )
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To: RaceBannon
To say that God's gifts are not available to us today .. is ludicrous.
I was diagnosed with ovarian caner in August of 1987. I was to under go six months of chemo. I under went only two treatments and knew I was healed by God's grace.
The doctor told me that if I did not continue treatment I would be dead in six months ... well needless to say ... its been a long six months.
My friend had a bone disorder which was destroying her leg. The doctors felt the only way they might save her is to amputate ... when they opened her leg to take a further look ... nothing was wrong ... perfect bones. So .... 1966 to today perfect bone structure. What the doctors said in both cases ... oops wrong xray ooops screw up in the lab.
No it was God's healing grace that healed us both!
15 posted on 02/23/2005 8:53:24 AM PST by roylene
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To: RaceBannon
they would not be holding meetings, they would be in Emergency rooms and hospices.

By that logic, ministers and preachers should be in the bars and strip clubs, in the divorce courts and opium dens. You know, I mean, if God is able to actually SAVE someone nowadays. If it's just happening in the churches, and offerings are being taken, then salvation today is phony, just a bunch of emotional shamaanism.

I'm just trying for consistency here...

16 posted on 02/23/2005 9:05:40 AM PST by January24th
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To: RaceBannon
And that is my point, if these people had the genuine Holy Spirit gift of healing, they would not be holding meetings, they would be in Emergency rooms and hospices.

What about Jesus? As God, He had the ability to heal everyone. But He didn't. Reading through the gospels, you'll see that the faith of the healed was a critical factor. God invites each of us into a relationship with Him. He wants us to come of our own free will.

The healing gift is not a magic wand. We don't get to pick and choose who will be healed. Only God can heal. We are sometimes privileged to have Him work through us that we might partner in His divine plan -- and that plan is to see people come to Him. If God chooses to heal, it is because He is a merciful God, and because He most of all desires people to come into relationship with Him. The afflictions of this world are temporary, but separation from God is eternal.

Think of it this way: If I had a healing gift, and went to the emergency room, and everyone I prayed for was healed, what would be the outcome?

Would everyone come to Christ? No. Those who don't want to believe would explain it away.

The key to all of this is that people must come to Christ of their own free will.

17 posted on 02/23/2005 9:54:11 AM PST by Zechariah_8_13 ("Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point.")
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To: Zechariah_8_13
And you bring up things that make it easy to prove this is not a genuine thing.

People never had anything to do with limiting the Power of God if God wants to exert power, did they?

Jesus healed all who came to Him, but did that mean He could NOT heal those who did NOT come to Him?

The centurion's daughter didn't come to Him, but her dad did, and she was healed. She didnt come to Him at all, nor did she "have faith" to believe, her Dad did.

Many in this Charismatic movement claim that those who do not have enough faith cannot be healed, I say, what about the beggar who was asking for alms at the city gate, Peter told him, Silver and Gold have I none, but what I do, I give to you! And the man was healed.

Also, did Jesus heal thousands? Obviously yes, but where were these people after being healed? How many of them believed on Him after His death?

The Bible is clear that many were healed, but also that many did NOT believe on Him! So, to claim that people do not get healed because they lack faith, that is false because Jesus healed the same people who later condemned Him!

As for picking and choosing who gets healed, that is exactly what those who have the gift of healing do, they choose to heal people. The gift is given to them, it is the healers will to heal, not God's will to heal (even though it is IN God's will, we both agree on that), but it is the direct and intentional will of the healer to heal when they heal.

What about Peter and the rest of the disciples who just handed out handkerchiefs that they blessed? These were handed out to people who did NOT come to anyone, nor is there any reason to believe they had faith which saved them after or before being healed, only that even articles of clothing that the disciples handed out had the power of healing, also.

Did the piece of cloth have an intent? Could the piece of cloth discern the faith of the person who was healed by it? Obviously not, but the person who sent it did have that intent, that those who were come in contact with it were to be healed.

How about the shadow of those Peter and the disciples walked by, their very shadow healed people! Did the people have faith? How can you tell? There is ZERO evidence that those people came to be healed, but God in His mighty work allowed that power to be given to the Apostles to did such things in His name.

So for you to say that it would be a waste of time for someone with the gift of healing to go to the emergency room because they wont get saved, remember Jesus: He healed thousands, and the Bible says the WHOLE CITY of Jerusalem came out to meet Him, he met daily in the Temple healing, preaching, and then, when He was crucified, what does the Bible say? THE WHOLE CITY was there to condemn Him!

The self same people who were healed were there to condemn Him, obviously not all, but enough for the term ALL to be true!

People coming to Christ of their own free will has nothing to do with whether a person has the gift of healing or not.
18 posted on 02/23/2005 12:27:47 PM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: roylene

To me, baptists are liberals. :)


19 posted on 02/23/2005 12:35:01 PM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: RaceBannon
I can not say if they are liberals or not but they do not (at least the ones I know) believe God has given us anything beyond salvation. ie: no gifts of the spirit
20 posted on 02/23/2005 2:36:26 PM PST by roylene
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Part3:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1349674/posts


21 posted on 02/23/2005 3:08:08 PM PST by Diago
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To: Diago
.....Terri Schiavo to be flown to CLEVELAND, OHIO......?

/Magik-touch-money-grubbers

22 posted on 02/24/2005 9:46:09 AM PST by maestro
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To: RaceBannon

"I do not believe in the modern Charismatic gifts being genuine gifts from God, those ended long ago...it is either a sham or a demonic phony."

I suggest you read Matthew Chapter 12, beginning at verse 22. Jesus casts out a demon...the Pharisees say he did it by Beelzebub (Satan). Jesus says to the Pharisees that attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan is an unforgivable sin.

You better be sure, for your own sake and soul that it is demonic activity before you say so.

As for gifts ending, in 1 Cor 13 Paul says that these will cease when that which is perfect, or complete, has come. We know-it-all evangelical fundamentalists would like to believe that having a "complete" word of God - Bible, Old and New Covenants - makes what Paul said so. I suggest we read it again, carefully - it can only mean when Christ, the Messiah, returns for His Bride, the church. Then, when we have Him among us, or we are with Him, there is no longer need for any of those gifts (nor is there any longer a need for the Bible). Til then...let me ask, have you ever been sick? Do you pray? Does God answer your prayer? Does He converse with you? What is a prophecy...is it not a word from the Lord? Or is your God deaf and dumb? He can't hear...He can't speak? Or he can hear, but he can't speak? Oh, I forgot...he has to answer you by directing your thoughts to some particular passage in the Bible, God's word, complete and final word and he is limited by what is written there, cannot answer you in any other way...Hmmm? You serve a tongue-tied God? Your God wrote (had written) everything He wanted to say to us, then went to sleep these past 2000 years? God forbid that anyone who claims to belong to Him would think that His power has limits.

Jehovah-rapha - God my Healer. He heals today by the same "miraculous" touch that he did 2000 years ago. He has been doing so for these 2000 years. He did so during the first 4000 years leading up to His being on this earth in human form (or however many it has been since the Creation of aw-dawm...adam...man).

I have seen God heal - I have seen Him heal medically verified diseases with the healing medically verified. I know of medically verified broken bones being instantly healed and the healing medically verified. Jesus said, in John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." ...did Jesus lie?


23 posted on 03/17/2005 8:37:42 PM PST by GGpaX4DumpedTea
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To: GGpaX4DumpedTea
APPENDIX ONE

THE TONGUE SPEAKING OF THE MONATISTS
Eusebius: The History of the Church, Penguin Classics version c.1965 pp.218-219
"After completing his explanation on these lines at the beginning of his book, He goes on to describe the originator of this heretical sect, as follows.
Their opposition and their recent schismatic heresy in relation to the Church originated thus. There is, it appears, a village near the Phrygian border of Mysia called Ardabau. There it is said that a recent convert named Montanus, while Gratus was proconsul of Syria, in his unbridled ambition to reach the top laid himself open to the adversary, was filled with spiritual excitement and suddenly fell into a kind of trance and unnatural ecstasy. He raved, and began to chatter and talk nonsense, prophesying in a way that conflicted with the practice of the Church handed down generation by generation from the beginning. Of those who listened at that time to his sham utterances some were annoyed, regarding him as possessed, a demonaic in the grip of the spirit of error, a disturber of the masses. The rebuked him and tried to stop his chatter, remembering the distinction drawn by the Lord, and His warning to guard vigilantly against the coming of false prophets. Others were elated as if by the Holy Spirit or a prophetic gift, were filled with conceit, and forgot the Lord's distinction. They welcomed a spirit that injured and deluded the mind and led the people astray: they were beguiled and deceived by it, so that it could not now be reduced to silence. By some art, or rather by methodical use of malign artifice, the devil contrived the ruin of the disobedient, and was most undeservedly honored by them. Then he secretly stirred up and inflamed minds closed to the true faith, raising up in this way two others--women who he filled up with this sham spirit, so that they chattered crazily, inopportunely, and wildly, ;like Montanus himself. On those who were elated and exultant about him the spirit bestowed favors, swelling their heads with his extravagant promises. Sometimes it reproved them pointedly and convincingly to their faces, to avoid appearing uncritical---though few of the Phrygians were deceived. They were taught by this arrogant spirit to denigrate the entire Catholic (universal) Church throughout the world, because the spirit of pseudo-prophecy received neither honor nor admission into it; for the Asian believers repeatedly and in many parts of Asia had met for this purpose, and after investigating the recent utterances pronounced them profane and rejected the heresy. Then at last its devotees were turned out of the Church and ex-communicated.

(Continuing on page 221)
When all their arguments have been disposed of and they have nothing to say, they try to take refuge in the martyrs, alleging that they have a great number and that this is convincing proof of the power of what in their circle is called the prophetic spirit. But this seems to be as false as false can be, for some of the other heretical sects have immense numbers of martyrs, but this is surely no reason why we should approve of them or acknowledge that they have the truth. To take one instance--those who as sectaries of Marcion are called Marcionites claim an immense number of Christian Martyrs, but they do not truly acknowledge Christ Himself. . . Hence whenever members of the Church called to martyrdom for the true faith meet any of the so-called martyrs of the Phrygian sect, they part company with them and have nothing to do with them till their own fulfillment, because they will not be associated with the spirit that spoke through Montanus and the women. That this is true, and that it occurred in our own time in Apamea on the Maeander, in the case of Gaius and Alexander and the other martyrs from Eumenia, is perfectly clear.

IRENAEUS, CONCERNING THE HERETIC MARCUS (2nd CENTURY)
Marcus to a woman,"Receive first from me and by me the gift of Charis. . . Woman,"I have never at any time prophesied, nor do I know how to prophesy"
Marcus,"Open thy mouth, speak whatever occurs to thee, and thou shalt prophesy."

She then, vainly puffed up and elated by these words, and greatly excited in soul by the expectation that it is herself who is to prophesy, her heart beating violently (from emotion), reaches the requisite pitch of audacity, and idly as well as impudently utters some nonsense as it happens to occur to her, such as might be expected from one heated by an empty spirit." (Irenaeus Against Heresies)


APPENDIX #2 A MEDICAL DOCTOR EXAMINES A PROMINENT FAITH HEALER

These are portions of the excellent article entitled " In Search Of A Miracle" by William A. Nolan, M.D. in the September 1974 issue of McCall's Magazine. This noted doctor, skeptical, but willing to believe, examined the phenomenon of faith healing, as practiced by the countries best-known exponent, Kathryn Kuhlman:

Occasionally, Miss Kulhman would turn to the audience and say, "Someone with a brace--a brace on your leg--you don't need that brace anymore. Take it off. Come and claim your cure." The first time she called for a brace, no one came forth. You could sense the audience felt this was embarrassing for Miss Kulhman. Finally, a very pretty young girl came up on the stage. She was waving her leg brace and standing, with her pelvis tilted badly, on one good leg and one short, withered leg. Kathryn Kulhman questioned her. "How long have you worn this brace?" "Thirteen years. Since I had polio at age seven" "And now your cured. You don't need it anymore. You've taken it off." "yes," she said. "I believe in the Lord. I've prayed and he's curing me." Everyone applauded. The girl cried. This scene, to my mind, was utterly revolting. The girl's leg was just as withered as it had been ten minutes earlier. Now she stood in front of 10,000 people, giving praise to the Lord, and indirectly to Kathryn Kulhman, for a cure that hadn't occurred, and wasn't going to occur. I could imagine how she would feel when the hysteria of the moment had left her and she again had to put on the brace she had worn for 13 years---and would wear for the rest of her life. Finally, with a hymn and a final blessing, the show ended.

All the desperately ill who had been in wheelchairs were still in wheelchairs. As I watched them leave, seeing the tears of the parents as they pushed their crippled children to the elevators, I wished Miss Kulhman were with me. I wondered if she really knew how much sadness those disappointed patients and parents suffered. I couldn't believed that she did. Even if I hadn't felt obligated to leave, I don't think I would have found much more to ask her. It seemed obvious to me that she was a sincere, honest woman who felt she had been chosen to perform a mission for Christ. She believed without a doubt that she was helping the sick and the maimed as Christ wished her to help them--not personally, as she pointed out endlessly--but as His instrument. During the service, as those who had claimed a cure came down off the stage, two legal secretaries I had enlisted to help me wrote down the names, addresses, phone numbers and diagnosis of everyone who was willing to cooperate in a follow-up study. We got 82 names--almost everyone who was approached. The only reason we didn't get more was that the flow of the cured was so heavy that the secretaries couldn't get them all. A few weeks after the service, letters were sent to the names on the list, inviting them to come to Minneapolis on Sunday, July 14, and tell us about their experiences. Twenty-three people showed up, and I made arrangements to interview them individually over the next few months. I've singled out three particular cases to discuss here because they're typical of so many that I have in my files. ...

In talking to these people, I tried to be as honest, understanding and objective as possible, but I couldn't dispense with my medical knowledge and my common sense. I listened carefully to everything they told me and followed up every lead that might have led to confirmation of a miracle......
I was led to an inescapable conclusion: Of the patients who had returned to Minneapolis to reaffirm the cures claimed at the miracle service, no one had, in fact, been miraculously cured of anything....


APPENDIX #3
1 CORINTHIANS 13:8-13

Paul's argument in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 put in simple terms is as follows:
The Superiority Of Love
THERE ARE THREE THINGS THAT WILL FAIL (V.8).
These are the less important things.
THERE ARE THREE THINGS THAT WILL REMAIN (V. 13)
These are the most important things.
THERE IS ONE THING THAT WILL NEVER FAIL (V.8)
IT WILL REMAIN FOREVER (v.13)
This is the most important thing (v.13)
and therefore this is what we are to follow after (14:1)

Note : "knowledge" (v.8) should not be confused with knowledge in general. This verse refers to the special gift of knowledge (see 1 Corinthians 12:8 and 13:2). The gifts of knowledge and wisdom (1 Corinthians 12:8) were special revelatory gifts which were needed in the days prior to the completed New Testament. Imagine a local Church today trying to survive without the New Testament Scriptures as a pattern and guide! Divine knowledge and wisdom were essential during the infancy period of the early church. Today all "truth" which is necessary for the Godly walk of believers has been recorded on the pages of the completed Bible (cf. John 16:13).

Note : In 1 Corinthians 13:10 we have the expression "that which is perfect." To understand this word we need to see how it is used in the New Testament.

It is used in the following passages: Matt. 5:48 (twice); Matt. 19:21; Romans 12:2; 1 Cor. 13:10; 1 Cor. 14:20 ("men")Eph 4:13; Phil 3:15; Col. 1:28; Col 4:12; Heb 5:14 (full age); Heb 9:11; Jas 1:4 (twice); Jas 1:17; Jas 1:25; Jas 3:2; 1 John 4:18.

In light of this usage, the word seems to carry two basic ideas: 1) the idea of maturity (see especially 1 Cor 2:6, 1 Cor 14:20, Eph 4:13, Col 1:28, Col 4:12, Heb 5:14, Jas 3:2). Often this idea is in contrast with the idea of the immaturity of children (see 1 Cor 13:11, 1 Cor 14:20, Eph 4:13-14, Heb 5:13-14); 2) the idea of completeness (see Col 4:12, Jas 1:4).

We should notethat this word is used to describe the Bible in James 1:25--"the perfect law of liberty"


APPENDIX #6
DOES THE CHURCH NEED VISIONS AND REVELATIONS TODAY?

1. The basic rule or principle of the Christian life is that of faith. We walk by faith and not by visions (2 Cor 5:7; cf. John 20:29)

2. Visions are unnecessary because of the all sufficiency of the written word of God, from Genesis to Revelation:
a. Christ promised the Apostles that the spirit of truth would guide them into all truth (John 16:13). What more do we need?
b. Peter says that we have a more sure word of prophecy than even the eyewitness account of an Apostle, namely the spirit-moved Word of God (2 Peter 1:15-21). What more do we need?
c. Paul tells us that the God-breathed Scriptures are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works (2 Timothy 3:16-17). What more do we need?

3. The Bible teaches that "prophecies shall be done away" (1 Corinthians 13:8) indicating that with the completion of the written scriptures there would no longer be a need for "added revelations."

4. That many should be claiming to have received visions and revelations from the Lord is not surprising in the light of 1 John 4:1-3; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:13; 4:2-4; Matthew 7:15-24; 24:4-5.

5. "No the church doesn't need new revelation from heaven today! We already have a completed Bible and the Holy Spirit of God to interpret it! WHAT THE CHURCH NEEDS IS A NEW CONFIRMATION WITH THE WHOLE COUNCIL OF GOD, PROCLAIMED IN THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WITH AUTHORITY AND LOVE, BY MEN WHO KNOW THEIR GOD AND WHO HONOR HIS ONLY WRITTEN REVELATION. Then and only then, may we expect our deepest needs to be supplied, ands God's purpose for his church to be accomplished in our day." (Dr. John C. Whitcomb, Does God Want Christians To Perform Miracles Today?, pp.12-13).

In these last days before the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ for his Church (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), we can expect an increase of subjective, experiential religion: "It must be true because it happened to me!" What we need is revelational religion, based on objective and absolute truth: "It must be true because God says it in his word!" We need men of God who tremble at the word of God (Isaiah 66:1-2). We do not need new revelation today. We need to obey and walk worthy of the revelation that we already have! We do not need more light today. We will stand before Christ and give an account for the way we respond to the light we already have had!
The church is in desperate need of a vision today. We need a vision of God. We need to see the Lord High and Lifted Up. We need a glimpse of all that God is (Isaiah 43:10-11). The more we see Christ as he really is, the more we will be like Him (1 John 3:2) As we catch a vision of Christ in the written word, we will reflect the glory of the Lord as our lives are conformed to his image ( 2 Corinthians 3:18).

APPENDIX # 11
TONGUES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 is the key passage which helps us to understand the PURPOSE of the N. T. gift of tongues. According to Paul, the significance and purpose of tongues is to be found "in the law" (v.21), that is, in the Old Testament scriptures, and in particular Isaiah 28:11-12. As we consider tongues in the Old Testament, including Isaiah 28, the following pattern becomes very clear:

GENESIS 11
God has a message for the people (Gen 9:1,7)
The people refuse to listen to God (Genesis 11:4)
GOD CAUSES TONGUES TO BE HEARD AS A SIGN OF JUDGMENT (GENESIS 11:7)
Dispersion follows (Genesis 11:8)


DEUTERONOMY 28
God has a message for his people (Deuteronomy 28:1)
The people refuse to listen to God (Deuteronomy 28:15)
GOD CAUSES TONGUES TO BE HEARD AS A SIGN OF JUDGMENT (DEUTERONOMY 28:49)
Dispersion follows (Deuteronomy 28:64-65)


JEREMIAH 5
God has a message for his people (Jer 4:1)
The people refuse to listen to God ( Jer 5:3)
GOD CAUSES TONGUES TO BE HEARD AS A SIGN OF JUDGMENT (JEREMIAH 5:15)
Dispersion follows (Jer 5:19)


ISAIAH 28

God has a message for his people (Isaiah 28:12a)
The people refuse to listen to God ( Isaiah 28:12b)
GOD CAUSES TONGUES TO BE HEARD AS A SIGN OF JUDGMENT ( ISAIAH 28:11)
Dispersion follows (Isaiah 28:13)

Compare the opposite taught in Isaiah 33. ( Millenial Context)
God causes tongues to not be heard as a sign of blessing.
No more Dispersion!

THE PATTERN REPEATED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

God has a message for his people (Matt 11:28; Jer 4:1; Isa 28:12)
The people refuse to listen to God (Matthew 23:37)
GOD CAUSES TONGUES TO BE HEARD AS A SIGN OF JUDGMENT (MATTHEW 23:38; 24:2)
Dispersion follows (Matthew 23:38; 24:2).

24 posted on 03/19/2005 5:30:29 AM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: GGpaX4DumpedTea

Ten Reasons Why I

Cannot Participate in the

Modern Charismatic Movement



By George Zeller





Please Note: The doctrinal issues dealt with in this article are more fully considered in the document entitled, The Modern Charismatic Movement - 35 Doctrinal Issues.



1) THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT TEACHES THAT NOT EVERY BELIEVER HAS RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT. They will often ask this question: “HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE SPIRIT?”



The Apostle Paul, in writing to the believers in Rome, declared that every Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, for “if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, HE IS NONE OF HIS” (Rom. 8:9). Those who do not have the Spirit are those who do not have Christ! The person who has the Son of God has the Holy Spirit also! Thus, the crucial question is not whether I have received the Holy Spirit, but whether I have received Christ (John 1:12; 1 John 5:11-12)!



The gift of the Holy Spirit was given to each believer at the moment of salvation (Rom. 5:5). As a result, God’s Spirit lives within every Christian: “Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, WHO IS IN YOU” (1 Cor. 6:19).



How do I KNOW that the Holy Spirit dwells within me? The Charismatic answer: “I know that the Holy Spirit dwells within me because I have had an experience! I have had the ‘baptism’ and I have spoken in tongues!” The Believer’s answer: “I know that the Holy Spirit dwells within me because GOD SAID SO! The Bible says, ‘The Holy Spirit dwelleth in us’ (2 Tim. 1: 14). God said it; I believe it; that settles it!”



2) THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT TEACHES THAT TONGUES IS THE EVIDENCE OF HAVING RECEIVED THE SPIRIT. In other words, when they ask, “Have you received the Spirit?” what they really mean is, “HAVE YOU SPOKEN IN TONGUES?”



God’s Word tells me that I was sealed with the Holy Spirit the moment I trusted Christ (Eph. 1:13-14). As cattle are “sealed” or branded with a mark of ownership, so God has given me the Holy Spirit as the mark and token that I belong to Christ (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 6:19-20). If I really have the Holy Spirit, and if I really belong to the Son of God, what will the outward evidence of that be? “The foundation of God standeth sure, having this SEAL, the Lord knoweth them that are His. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ DEPART FROM INIQUITY” (2 Tim. 2:19).



Many people name the name of Christ, and claim to be Christians. Many profess Christ, but few actually possess Christ. The real test is whether or not a person DEPARTS FROM INIQUITY (UNRIGHTEOUSNESS). If I have really received the HOLY Spirit, then that ought to be evidenced by a HOLY life: “For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto HOLINESS . . . who hath also given unto us His HOLY Spirit (1 Thess. 4:7-8). The determining question is not whether I have spoken in tongues, but whether I have walked consistently in His holiness!



3) THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT TEACHES THAT TONGUES IS THE EVIDENCE OF BEING FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT.



The important command to be filled with the Spirit is found in Ephesians 5:18. If I am really filled with the Spirit, how will that be evidenced? Paul gives the answer in the verses which follow.



If I am filled with, the Spirit, I will have a song in my heart (Eph. 5:19). The Holy Spirit is the Master Musician who is able to produce a wonderful melody within! (Notice that verse 19 does not say, “Speaking to yourselves in unknown tongues . . .”)



If I am filled with the Spirit, then I will be filled with thanksgiving also (Eph. 5:20)! Unthankful means unfilled!



Finally, if I am truly Spirit-filled, I will submit to God’s order in the home (Eph. 5:21 and the verses following). The real test of whether a person is filled with the Spirit is not on Sunday morning in church when everyone is at their best behavior. Rather it is how one conducts himself in the home during the week in the midst of the problems and pressures of life. The critical question is not, “Has he spoken in tongues?”, but rather, “Is he loving (Eph. 5:25)?” “Is she submissive (Eph. 5:22)?” “Are the children obedient (Eph. 6:1-2)?” God the Holy Spirit is able to produce something far greater than tongues (Gal. 5:22-23)!



4) THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT TEACHES THAT SPIRIT BAPTISM IS AN EXPERIENCE SUBSEQUENT (FOLLOWING IN TIME) TO SALVATION AND NOT ENJOYED BY ALL BELIEVERS. They will often ask this question: HAVE YOU HAD THE BAPTISM?



God’s Word teaches that Spirit Baptism is that wonderful work of God whereby I was placed into the body of Christ the moment I was saved: “For by one Spirit were we ALL baptized into one body . . . and have ALL been made to drink into one Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:13; cf. Gal. 3:25-26). Those in the Charismatic movement often identify the “baptism of the Spirit” as that “Pentecostal experience” of speaking in tongues. Furthermore, they teach that ALL believers should seek this tongues experience. Thus the Charismatic movement says “ALL” when God says “NOT ALL” (1 Cor. 12:29-30), and “NOT ALL” when God says “ALL” (1 Cor. 12:13).



5) SOME WITHIN THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT, BELIEVE THAT IT IS NECESSARY TO TARRY FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT.



For Charismatics, the term “tarry” often means to seek after the “baptism of the Spirit” (speaking in tongues) by long sessions of prayer, by the laying on of hands, etc. For the Apostles, the word “tarry” meant to wait for the coming of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4). To evangelize the world without the Holy Spirit would be as futile as trying to drive a car without gas!



I might wait for a person at the airport for several hours. Once he comes, however, I do not need to wait any longer! The waiting period is over, and I can simply enjoy his presence! Praise God, the Comforter has come!



6) WITHIN THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT THERE IS OFTEN AN OVEREMPHASIS UPON THE PERSON OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TO THE NEGLECT OF CHRIST.



In some Charismatic groups and gatherings, the Holy Spirit is spoken of more than Christ! The Lord Jesus said, “But when the Comforter is come . . . He shall testify of Me . . . for He WILL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF . . . He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you” (John 15:26; 16:13-14).



The Spirit bears witness to Christ! The Spirit ever points people to Christ! The glorious ministry of the Spirit is to glorify and lift up Christ! If the Holy Spirit is really working in my life, then CHRIST will become more and more precious to me each day! His blessed office work is to produce Christ-like saints (Gal. 4:19; 5:22-23; 2 Cor. 3:18)!



7) THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT INCLUDES THOSE WHO TEACH THAT IT IS GOD’S WILL FOR EVERY SICK PERSON TO BE HEALED.



Some “faith healers” today insist that if a person is sick, then he is out of the will of God—either he does not have enough faith or he has not come to the right person (i.e. a “healer”). Here are the facts: 1) In 2 Corinthians 12:7-10 we learn that God denied Paul’s request to have his “thorn” (painful bodily ailment) removed. 2) Faithful Epaphroditus, as we are told in Philippians 2:25-30, had almost died from a sickness, and the implication is that Paul was unable to help him, though God could. 3) In his final letter to Timothy, Paul explained that he had left Trophimus at Miletus SICK (2 Tim. 4:20). 4) Paul apparently knew of no faith healer who could help Timothy with his stomach ailments and frequent infirmities (1 Tim. 5:23). 5) Christ and the apostles healed ALL who came to them, not just those who “had enough faith” (Matt. 12:15; Acts 28:7-9). 6) The healing miracles of Christ and the apostles can be described as INSTANTANEOUS (Matt. 8:3; 20:34; Acts 3:6-7), PERFECT AND COMPLETE (Matt. 14:36) and UNDENIABLE (Acts 4:14, 16; compare Matthew 12:22-24). Sadly, the same cannot be said of the “miraculous cures” of modern “healers.”



8) THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT TEACHES THAT THE BIBLE IS NOT SUFFICIENT! WE NEED SOMETHING ELSE (VISIONS, PROPHECIES, ADDED REVELATIONS, ETC.)!



Nothing is more important than my attitude towards God’s written Word (the 66 canonical books). Consider the following: 1) Christ told His disciples that they needed added revelation (John 16:12-“I have yet many things to say unto you”), but He promised that the Spirit of truth would come and guide them into ALL TRUTH (John 16:13)! What more do we need? 2) Though God once spoke at various times and in “divers manners” (through visions, dreams, etc.), He has in these last days spoken by His Son (Heb. 1:1-2)! What more do we need? 3) All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable . . . that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works (2 Tim. 3:16-17)! What more do we need? 4) Though Peter actually heard God’s voice from heaven, he assures us that “we have a more sure word of prophecy . . . the Scripture” (2 Pet. 1:18-20)! What more do we need? 5) Jude writes concerning “the faith” (the body of Christian truth) which has once for all been delivered to the saints (Jude 3)! What more do we need? 6) As the Lord completed His written revelation, He issued one final warning: LET NO MAN ADD OR TAKE AWAY FROM MY WORD (see Rev. 22:18-19). Two verses later the final period was placed and the Bible was completed! What more do we need?



9) THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT BELIEVES THAT ECUMENISM IS PLEASING TO GOD.



Charismatic renewal has penetrated all the mainline Protestant denominations and is rapidly sweeping into the Roman Catholic Church. Charismatic converts are told to stay within these churches and to seek to “renew” them by their presence within.



God’s commands are just the opposite. Please read and consider the following commands in light of their context: 1) “COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM” (2 Cor. 6:18); 2) “FROM SUCH TURN AWAY” (2 Tim. 3:5); 3) “AVOID” (Rom. 16:17); 4) REJECT” (Tit. 3:10); 5) “RECEIVE HIM NOT” (2 John 10).



10) THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT MAKES EXPERIENCE THE REAL BASIS OF CHRISTIAN UNITY RATHER THAN DOCTRINE.



Charismatic people are united around a COMMON EXPERIENCE. What a person believes and what church a person attends is irrelevant. What really matters is that all have had the “Pentecostal experience.”



What was it that united the early church? Were converts given the freedom to believe whatever they wanted and to worship however they pleased? No, “they continued steadfastly IN THE APOSTLES DOCTRINE” (Acts 2:42). Their unity was based on “one faith” (Eph. 4:5), not “many faiths.” It was a unity that was based on a common “knowledge of the Son of God” (Eph. 4:13), which implies a correct doctrinal understanding of who Christ is and what He has done. This “oneness” was impossible apart from the protective atmosphere of “doctrine” (Eph. 4:14) and “truth” (Eph. 4:15). Only God’s Word and God’s Truth can effectively unite God’s people. May it so be!









The Middletown Bible Church
349 East Street
Middletown, CT 06457
(860) 346-0907
More articles under Doctrinal Studies
The Modern Charismatic Movement - 35 Doctrinal Issues

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/10reason.htm


25 posted on 03/19/2005 5:38:49 AM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: GGpaX4DumpedTea

Right on....

Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.


26 posted on 02/20/2007 11:04:38 AM PST by danallan
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To: Modernman; RaceBannon

You kidding? Hospices and ER's don't let you pass around collection plates....


27 posted on 02/20/2007 11:07:32 AM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: RaceBannon

My comments earlier have nothing to do with the Charismatic movement, the Baptist movement or the Bible Church movement. Today these have all become the religions of men. God gets left out in one way or another. They are also stuck in whatever movement of God may have been a part of the beginnings of these movements. The Charismatics are stuck in the early 1900's Azuza Street experience. Baptists are still stuck on the end of Martin Luther's dunking rods. Apparently the Bible Church is stuck in opposition to whatever seems contrary to their doctrines (all doctrine is man-made).

Fortunately for Charismatics, Baptists, Bible Churchers - as well as for the Catholics etc etc etc who have experienced healing when Dr Nemi has been present in the healing services in Cleveland churches - and for many others who have experienced God's healing touch, God is not dead, mute, powerless today. We have seen the lame walk, the cancer ridden body cancer free, etc etc etc. Dr Nemi, by the way, is a medical doctor, who makes no claims that he is responsible for healing anyone in these services. He gives all the credit, all the glory, to God, and to his (Dr Nemi's) Lord Jesus Christ.

And what is all this haranging about "Tongues"? What does that have to do with whether or not God heals people today? And as for the Spirit of God, anyone who knows clearly what is written in what we call "God's Word" knows that being "born again" is the same thing as being "born of the Spirit". The reserection of those in the Ezekiel's "Valley of Dry Bones" were not "born again" until God breathed His Spirit into the bodies made flesh again.

A few years ago a friend of mine who has a healing ministry was in India. Each morning there was a crowd lined up outside the door of the house where he was staying. He asked them why they were coming to him when they had their own healers they could go see. Their answer - "We know that Jesus Christ heals! That is why we are here to see you."

Your Bible Church could experience God's healing touch too if you all would just open your stoney hearts and let Him make them fleshy hearts, pliable in His fingers and receptive to His love and gracious healing touch.


28 posted on 04/01/2007 11:11:19 PM PDT by GGpaX4DumpedTea
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