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To: Ohioan from Florida
Why must you persist in thinking that God could not do what He clearly could and did?

It is not clear at all that God made Mary sinless. This is preposterous.

49 posted on 03/13/2005 7:47:41 PM PST by what's up
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To: what's up

I meant that He clearly could do it.


54 posted on 03/13/2005 7:50:38 PM PST by Ohioan from Florida (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.- Edmund Burke)
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To: what's up; Ohioan from Florida
You say:
It is not clear at all that God made Mary sinless.

It is clear to ALL of the Catholic and Orthodox scholars. It was also clear to Martin Luther (see his words above.) What is NOT clear to you is to most who have studied the matter. May I suggest a course of prayer and study?

This is preposterous.

Why is the belief of the oldest Christian communities "preposterous"? Why is Martin Luther's belief "preposterous"?

59 posted on 03/13/2005 7:52:48 PM PST by narses (St James the Moor-slayer, Pray for us! +)
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To: what's up

"It is not clear at all that God made Mary sinless. This is preposterous."

The Bible itself alludes to a comparison between the Ark in the OT and the "Ark" in the NT, Mary.

This is most explicit at the end of Revelation 11 into 12. Remember, there were no chapter separation when Revelation was written. You have the Ark at the end of 11, then the Mother of our Lord in 12. Yes, it refers to Israel, in the metaphoric sense, but to Mary in the literal sense - who actually gave birth to Him?
What did the Ark of the OT contain? The manna, Aaron's staff, and the Ten Commandments (according to Hebrews).
What did the Ark of the NT contain? The Bread from Heaven, the High Priest, and the Word (Law) of God Himself. Who else, then, is the true Ark - Mary.

Considering God had fashioned the Ark (directed the Hebrews how it was to be built, etc.), we consider that God would fashion the Ark of the NT that would carry His son in the same manner - pure and uncorrupted (sinless).

The Church Fathers see this quickly, as well as the idea that if Jesus is the New Adam, Mary is the New Eve. Since both Adam and Eve were involved in our fall, the Church reasoned that somehow, Jesus and Mary were involved in our redemption. Only Adam could condemn us, but Eve was not a simple bystander. Only Jesus could save us, but Mary was not a simple bystander. Ireneaus especially details this comparison. And Gen 3:15 say they both will be involved. This leads us to the term co-redemptrix. It doesn't mean that Jesus couldn't save us without Mary; it means He CHOSE to save us WITH her. (when you love, you share with others)

A helpful analogy of co-redemptrix -

A mother and her little daughter set out to make cookies. The mother "allows" the daughter to help prepare the dough and place the dough on the cookie sheet. The mother is really doing the work, but, out of love, she "allows" her daughter to help, even if the smallest manner. Strictly speaking, the mother made the cookies - who needs a 3 year old to make cookies - but out of love for her daughter, she allows the child to help her, to spend time with her daughter, etc. And when the daughter says "Daddy, I helped Mom make the cookies today", does the Mom get up, flabbergasted and disgusted with her daughter's usurping and overplaying her role, yell at her daughter "I MADE THE COOKIES, HOW DARE YOU TAKE AWAY FROM ME WHAT IS MINE!!!"

Same concept with God and the co-redemptrix.

By the way, Scripture has several verses that point to this concept - James 5:20, "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." or Colossians 1:24, "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church"
There are others, but this is sufficient for now.

Regards


177 posted on 03/14/2005 4:57:33 AM PST by jo kus
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