My previous post was inspired by an old episode of Police Story from years ago (I realize there are adults who have been born since that old series was on TV; yikes!) In this episode a young cop is married to a hippie philosophy major, and as time goes along they have less and less in common. Finally, he comes in from a particularly horrifying crime scene to find her discussing this particular conundrum with her other college friends, and as a put-down they ask him "if the tree falls ...." to which he replies "if a girl is beaten to death in the forest, and there is no one there to hear her scream, is she really dead" (and from the look on his wife's face we can imagine their marriage is pretty much over).
In any case, it pays to keep in mind that events exist outside your ability to perceive them.
If there is no "listener" then there is no sound. Sound is only given substance by a listener who can perceive sound.
This is true. To look at it another way, if there is an event that you wish to monitor, you must find a way to sense the event. If the event makes some physical change, we can devise an instrument that will sense that change, and translate it into a form that our eye and brain can recognize. We can devise a way for the shock wave to generate an electronic signal that will be displayed on my monitor as a sine wave or a flashing red icon. If there is no instrument to sense the event, and translate it into an electronic signal, then there will be no graphic display. But the tree did fall, and the shock wave that our instrument captured or (failed to capture) did occur.
it is simply impossible for a single person to know of everything that exists. Nor is it possible for mankind, collectively, to know of everything that exists, and I'm speaking of just those things that are possible to detect given our limitations.
That would be a truism.
Imagine a non-conscious being that is completely impossible to perceive with our senses, could such a being exist? The answer is no.
I don’t think my existence is contingent on your ability to see me, and atoms didn’t spring into existence in this past century. I might seem deliberately obtuse here, but it isn’t deliberate (I am obtuse, as my friends will attest), but I will reject this point. Those things that exist, existed prior to and independently of my ability to instrument them.
If there is no conscious rational being to perceive a non-conscious being, then it is not possible for that being to exist, it is a logical contradiction.
No.
And if we are using our rational consciousness to perceive a non-conscious being, then that being is being perceived, if only in our mind's eye.
Imagine the shock to the space-time-continuum that must occur each and every time we blink.
The only way such a universe can exist is if there is a rational, conscious being that can perceive it--if only through thinking--that such a thing exists!
No.
the earth, the sun, and even the stars never existed before the first conscious, rational human being! They literally did not exist. Why couldn't they exist before the first human? Because existence and consciousness are bound together, and cannot be logically separated.
This is what happens when you shoot long range with open sights. A very tiny error in your sight picture can lead to a man-sized error at 300 yards, and a Volkswagen sized error at a thousand yards. Existence and consciousness are not bound together. Only your existence and your consciousness are bound together.
The rock does not exist because I saw it. It moved because I kicked it, but it existed whether or not I was ever born.
I am also a platonist, I suppose, I believe that there are principles by which this universe is designed. But those principles and the universe designed by them exist separately from my ability to draw breath or conceptualize them.
Tag, you're it.
RONZO: Imagine a non-conscious being that is completely impossible to perceive with our senses, could such a being exist? The answer is no.Believe it or not, we are in total agreement here. I do believe that everything that exists independent of us, does, in fact exist, whether or not we ever percieve it. However, I disagree that all that exists exists apart from any conscious, rational being what-so-ever. In other words, there must be other, I would argue even superior, rational, conscious beings who are, in fact, percieving things even when we aren't.MARRON: I don’t think my existence is contingent on your ability to see me, and atoms didn’t spring into existence in this past century. I might seem deliberately obtuse here, but it isn’t deliberate (I am obtuse, as my friends will attest), but I will reject this point. Those things that exist, existed prior to and independently of my ability to instrument them.
RONZO: If there is no conscious rational being to perceive a non-conscious being, then it is not possible for that being to exist, it is a logical contradiction.MARRON: No. And if we are using our rational consciousness to perceive a non-conscious being, then that being is being perceived, if only in our mind's eye. Imagine the shock to the space-time-continuum that must occur each and every time we blink.
Here I'm speaking in absolutes. If there is absolutely no conscious being that could ever absolutely percieve a non-conscious being, then it's absolutely impossible for the non-conscious being to exist. Yes, of course, there are all sorts of things that exist apart of our own human consciousness, of that there is no doubt. But can a non-conscioius thing exist apart from any type of conscious being what-so-ever, even an all-knowing, all-seeing god-like being? Of course that's absolutely impossible, and that's the point I'm trying to make.
RONZO: The only way such a universe can exist is if there is a rational, conscious being that can perceive it--if only through thinking--that such a thing exists! No. the earth, the sun, and even the stars never existed before the first conscious, rational human being! They literally did not exist. Why couldn't they exist before the first human? Because existence and consciousness are bound together, and cannot be logically separated.MARRON: This is what happens when you shoot long range with open sights. A very tiny error in your sight picture can lead to a man-sized error at 300 yards, and a Volkswagen sized error at a thousand yards. Existence and consciousness are not bound together. Only your existence and your consciousness are bound together.
This where things get interesting. Logically speaking, things do exist apart from our ability to percieve them: our consciousness and that which exists around us are not strongly linked, but I'm not sure I would go so far as to say there's no link at all. There does seem to be some sort of link, even for us humans, but it's difficult to quantify or explain.
However, it's impossible for non-conscious, non-rational things to exist; like rocks, trees, computers, liberals, etc.; apart from an absolute consciousness--a super-consciousness. If we don't presuppose a superior "all-knowing" consciousness existing before rocks, stars, planets, etc., then we find ourselves in the absurd position of saying that something existed apart from there being ANYONE who could percieve it, even a god-like being. But how is that provable? How can we prove that there was matter before there was consciousness? It's completely, totally and logically impossible. If you believe that things can come into existance without any conscious being what-so-ever around to perceive it, then you are, in fact, making a statment of faith based on your own metaphysical presuppositions. These premises can be easily shown to be logically absurd.
MARRON: I am also a platonist, I suppose, I believe that there are principles by which this universe is designed. But those principles and the universe designed by them exist separately from my ability to draw breath or conceptualize them.
On this we are agreed. The universe, how it came to be, and all that, does exist apart from our human perceptions. But it cannot exist apart from the perceptions of a super-consciousness. It's literally impossible.
Here's an interesting question for you: is it possible for non-conscious things to come into existence in our 4D universe apart from that of any consciousness at all, even that of a god-like being?
Thanks again for writing!