Posted on 04/07/2005 8:31:12 AM PDT by TheTruthess
Rather than me posting a verse, and having you say it does not apply ... why not go read an exegetical analysis of the relevant passages ... there are several short articles which spell out the arguments that are used.
You can try these ...
http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=30
http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=56
http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=58
http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=120
good reading
Post the verses. If they support pre trib, it will be easy to see.
They are short articles, they are easy to follow, and they would do a better job explaining it than I could. And if you spend some time browsing articles, you will certainly find something of interest to you.
Obviously the verses do not explicitly support pre trib or you would be gladly posting them, over and over and over.
Fine, I'll bite ...
John 14:1-3
1 Thess. 1:9-10
1 Cor. 1:7
Titus 2:13
1 John 3:2-3
Now go read http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=120
Here's an example of what you listed.
1 Thess. 1:9-10
1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
First of all notice that delivered is in the PAST tense, meaning it already happened. I suspect they are speaking of the crucifixion.
1 Cor. 1:7
1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Someone's smoking some good weed to invent a pre trib rapture out of those words!
Titus 2:13
2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
There is absolutely nothing to suggest a pre trib rapture or any rapture in that verse.
John 14:1-3
14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
These verses suggest that he is going to ready a room somewhere. My first question is where? My second question is where is G-d's Kingdom supposed to be? These verses help to support my position that maybe people are taken up AFTER the tribulation while the new heaven and earth are created. Certainly nothing in the verses to indicate a pre trib rapture.
Again, absolutely nothing to support a pre trib or any rapture.
Seems my post 84 was right on the money.
Look ... I have indulged you out of a quaint curiosity, despite the fact that I predicted what you would do. You obviously have no desire to study the text of the Scripture in any meaningful way. I have given you a very brief list of exegetical essays that outline the position ... but you are unwilling to engage even a simple task.
Instead of asking yourself, "How is this passage understood by rapturists as support" you go off on an irrational rampage which only highlights your unwillingness to put some effort into the text of Scripture.
Perhaphs your tagline suits you more than you realize ...
Actually, he didnt even get that right. Let's look at a few translations for 1 Thes. 1:10 ...
10: And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (KJV, which is what ET posted)
10: and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead–Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath (NIV)
10: and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. (NASB)
10: and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. (NJKV)
The participle here is not in the past tense "who delivered us" but rather a present tense ... "the one who delivers us" ... so ....... I fail to see how this is a reference to the crucifixion. The wrath to come is a future event ... and we are assured that Jesus is and will deliver us from that future wrath. What wrath is Paul talking about ... can only be one thing ... the wrath of God poured out during the tribulation period. So we have a passage that promises rescue from a future wrath. The word rapture is not there ... but the idea that we will be rescued from this coming wrath is clearly there ...
Nope. Just as Noah and his family were not removed from the planet and had to endure the flood, so too will we have to endure the wrath. We will be protected in the same manner as well. YHWH looks after his people. Looks at Lot, YHWH got him and out of harms way, his wife disobeyed and looked back and wasn't so fortunate.
I thought I covered that in my earlier post. I'll repeat it.
Psalm 91 (JPS)
5 Thou shalt not be afraid of the terror by night, nor of the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Of the pestilence that walketh in darkness, nor of the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold, and see the recompense of the wicked.
9 For thou hast made YHWH who is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation.
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy tent.
11 For He will give His angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Ahhh my tagline. It is based on the KJV (and others I'm sure) DELIBERATELY mistranslating a certain verse to try and force a prophecy fulfillment.
BUT NOT BECAUSE OF A RAPTURE. BECAUSE WE WILL BE PROTECTED LIKE NOAH AND LOT ETC. They weren't taken away or removed from the earth. They believed YHWH and trust in YHWH.
Isaiah 43:11 -- I, even I, am YHWH; and beside Me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 47:4 - Our Redeemer, YHWH of hosts is His name, The Holy One of Israel.
Psalm 146:3 - Put not your trust in Princes, nor in the Son of Man, in whom there is no help.
Isaiah 49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine; and all flesh shall know that I YHWH am thy Saviour, and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
And so have you bothered to read any of the articles ?
While your belief that the Church will be protected, but go through, the Tribulation period on the outside has a sense of appeal and sounds good (your analogy of Noah, Lot) ... it demonstrates a fundamental lack of understand of the PURPOSE of the Tribulation. The purpose of the Tribulation is
1. The judgement of the unbelieving world
2. Evangelization of the world
3. Conversion of Israel
Romans 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,
Revelation teaches that many who are saved during the tribulation will be killed because of their faith. Do you really believe that we will be protected during the tribulation (because Noah and Lot were), but those who don't believe until the tribulation are out of luck?
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